Fish getting worse! What infection does this guy have?

[Jakezori]

I'm about 90% sure my silver dollar has velvet and I'm treating it as it does, but I decided it would be best to upload some pics and see what others think. He started out bad and got a little better, and now hes getting worse again... He still won't eat and gets startled easily.

Also, the heater I have in there only lets the water get to about 76 degrees.

If you look close he has several small brownish goldish spots on his body and mouth... he also has a red nose.

[Cerianthus]

I dont think this is common Silver $ which I am so used to seeing locally.
I think I see sharp teeth or is it my imagination?

It is difficult task to reach conclusion or verifying symptoms thru pic, let alone diseases, but I do see rather unusual red/brown streaks on its forhead from one side to possibly to the other side. Is there indentation or open wound above the mouth?
I am assuming implication of its Capillary System.

Provided that this fish was not exposed to UNIDEAL water condition for long time and its q/t water is in check, have you consider medicating with Kanamycin?
DO not mix with other med, just one type of med at a time. I would remove all previous active meds from water via small, frequent water changes and fresh carbon before trying any new med.

When fish displays such possible internal problems, showing blood vessels which is not usually visible, heavy metal based med is the last med, if at all, I would use to treat the fish.
One thing I do know is that when fish are exposed to extreme pH and possibly other factors, unideal to specific pH each specific fish has evolved to, it does affect the fish's gill functions which is respiratory and also excretory functions (ionic exchanges). When these functions are impaired due to inflammed/agitated gill filaments, their blood will be saturated with toxic waste products which can lead to diseases and eventually death.
I read enough threads from numerous forums that when fish displays red gill, all automatically turned to possible ectoparasite as culpit, not realizing that exposure to extreme pH would dispaly similar symtoms.
In such event, ectoparasitic med would do more harm than good and whole thing could ve been resolved by gradually correcting pH to suits specific fish's need.
I dont believe in exact pH either as nothing is in exact pH in nature. I am just saying try to accomodate your fish needs, avoiding extreme.

Please dont tell me fish can adapt. I know of their ability to adapt.
Ive done enough experiments over last forty year as hobbyist and over 20 yrs in industry with 20K+ systems with pretty much daily shipments of f/w & Ss/w fish.

Anyway, I said what I want to say hoping some will listen and minimize the suffering of their fish, not mine.

Is it possible to post some other angle shots? I am curious as to what species?

Unfortunately this is best I can do from pic.
Perhaps someone else sees something I dont see.

Hope all goes well!

[Jakezori]

Sorry I didn't mention it before... it's a red hook silver dollar. He does have some capillary damage. I feel like I should continue treatment for a little while longer before trying to change as it seems like he has velvet. Do you see the small spots of goldish brown on his body?

Also, if I were to change meds, how much water should I change daily and how long with a little bit of carbon.

FTR, I am doing daily 40% water changes and daily doses of meds.

My Ph is very high (the tap water in my area)... So I suppose I will add some distilled water as a top off.

Here is a pic of the poor guys tail.

[Cerianthus]

Brown spots should be least of your problem. For all I know spots could be due to internal hemmorhaging. Do understand exact pinpointing is impossible task even with fish in front of me. All those visible capillary are not good sign as you probably know.

Like I said, heavy metal based med is not what I would use in this case as it maybe doing more harm than good.

How big is the tank it is being kept?
Is it possible to obtain some peat from garden center and prepare reserve (another small tank, rubbermaid, etc ) with filter and heater? This way you can use this reserve water when doing water changes in q/t and possibly in main displaytank down the road if you choose to.

Is it just this one displaying this symptoms?

Maybe it is the pics, it still does not remind me of Red Hooks, Myleus rubripinnis rubripinnis, especially from second pic (shape of dorsal fin)?

Anyway, I would try using Kanamycin or any med which has mixture of Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone (Unfortunately Spectrogram by Aquatronics is not avail anymore).
Cant find the Mixture? then Kanamycin would do.
Dont mix your own unless you are confident in such procedure.

Stop whatever you are treating with since fish is getting worse according to your diagnosis. Put new carbon after water chagnes and I would always do, not more than 25-30% per wc using straight tap.

Would you believe that by preparing my own tannin as treatment has cured and/or minimized the occurences of disease and even induce/stimulate spawning for some species of Characins from SA.. I guess Blackwater Extract on the market may do the same.

[Jakezori]

Sounds good. I just got some distilled water and I'm heating it now. It's in a 20 gallon and I'm 100% sure it's a red hook as it has a giant red hook on the bottom of it lol. This is the only one experiencing any sickness atm (the other tank is at about 85 degrees). It is in a 20 gallon and I plan on putting in carbon, distilled water, some peat, and some aquarium salt. I went to petco and I could not find the meds you are talking about.

[Cerianthus]

Unfortunately, Aquatronics is no longer in the business of mfring aquatic med. Best and most specific med (Neomycin, ampicillin, penicillin, etc) on the market, imo..

Try Novalek website. Click on Aquavet and product list where you will find Kanamycin Sulfate.

Whatever you are changing water conditions, do so gradually. Sudden changes, even from bad to good, is greatest stress factor on the fish. Thus gradually changes in water chemistry at all times except if toxins are accidentally introduced to tank. Hopefully never.

Hope all goes well.

[Jakezori]

I changed the water and the ph is about .8 lower now. He seems to be acting alittle better, but unfortunately the red hook in my 90 gallon (my main tank) is now acting crazy! He doesn't have any signs of disease or sickness other than bolting across the tank and ramming into the glass every time I come near him. I am trying to lower the ph in that tank as well, but I fear it may take some time... Should I put him in the qt tank with the other guy or leave him in the tank he is in now. I only have 1 qt tank. =p. I don't want my other fish to get infected.

[Cerianthus]

Is it possible to see video of this behavior in main tank? Is it another red hook and if so, how long did you have them? I am bit curious to why they are acting out NOW if you had them at high pH so long time????
If you only had them for short while, I would guess this is due to inability to adapt to such Unideal condition as I have seen so many fish kept in very unideal condition (pH, dKH, dGH) are more likely to be VERY NERVOUS/SKITTISH, reacting to shadows.

But do not rule out other possibilities such as ectoparasitic infestation.

I personally dont worry about NH3/NO2 in fishkeeping among my colleagues as we obtained techniques or observe behavior changes in order to noticed any NH3/NO2 build ups. Very very rare among my colleagues.

When you say pH droppped .8, What is the pH now in Q/T ? How about pH of main tank?

Keep the light off on main tank if fish are jumpy until remedies are found.

[Jakezori]

Originally when I got them the ph was about 7.6 and then it varied from 8 to 8.8 for about 6 months. The ph in my area is ridiculously high.

I will upload a vid soon. He only gets really bad when the tank light is on or when I'm near him. Should I put him in the 20 gallon with the other one even thought the other one has visible damage and he doesn't?

None of my LFS have the meds u say I need.. Can they hold in until saturday or should I order them overnight?

The ph on the right is the 20 gallon (it used to be 8.8)
The ph on the left is the 90 gallon

[Jakezori]

Here

I am going to add more distilled water wed.

[mel_20_20]

What kind of substrate do you have in the main tank... and what rocks if any? It's very curious that the ph is creeping up.

[MotionInSilver]

check the GH and the KH those are the what really count.


sometimes water company would do treatments to the water or due to the storm or change their method of treating the water so maybe that's what happened to both of the fish- double whammy on the new one that has whatever it has

[Jakezori]

the reason the water went up after a period of time is because I stopped doing distilled water top offs.

[Cerianthus]

Unless you already have the KH/GH kits, dont bother as it may confuse more at this time.

Depending on how you altered (+/-) the pH, GH/KH can /will be altered to acceptable range without other additives (KH/GH tab)..

Once Red Hooks are stablized, You can run few experiemnts on your tap water with GH/KH w/o fish in order to comprehend your tap water which will be valuable asset down the road, assisting stablizing your tank water for fish kept by you.

I think you are doing just fine for now as to correcting water condition in q/t.
If water in Q/T is stablized at your desired condition, perhaps you can do the same for main tank provided it is not too expensive.

If you are familiar with distillation procedure, you can diy distillation contraptions. Better yet, Peat Moss maybe easier and cheaper.


I just hope you can find Kanamycin soon to cure and/or inhibit further implications.

[Jakezori]

When I get Kanamycin (saturday) should I give it to the main tank or should I put both redhooks together? I am very tempted to put both redhooks together right now.

[Cerianthus]

How are they doing? Has one in q/t displaying more bleeding? How aobout the one in Main Tank? Still Skiddish?
I would not med any fish which does not require Intensive Care, just provide TLC & proper condition as best as you can.

Let me ask you a question as we are expecting snow storm in which you may already be in the middle of, how about taking some clean snow, if possible, and melt and test pH?

Can you do that? If pH is neutral and you are not near industrial area, you can use that as reserve once melted and heated as I have used rain water and snow to prep new water.
All you need is clean containers/buckets. Pack with snow and pour some boiling water from melted snow or just keep them inside overnight. Voila! you may have all the water you need for water changes provided it was clean to begin with. No need to buy distilled water!!
As you can see, I did just about whatever I can possibly do with water for fish tank but never a filter for myself. Figure that out! LOL!

Like I said, I would not med unless fish shows same/similar symptoms. I would rather calm the fish and/or prevent further implications by correcting/providing close to ideal water condition.

Good Luck with fish and storm!

BTW, that is very alkaline water for most f/w fish. This is H/R pH test kit. Do you also have standard pH kit which test from 6.0 to 7.6?

[Jakezori]

Thanks, but I have plenty of distilled water now. I will add it gradually to both tanks. Both fish still won't eat and the one in the 90 gallon has no signs of disease, but the 1 in the qt tank still has brownish spots. On the bright side, neither fish seems to be bleeding any more, but also they don't seem to be getting better. I have a large hunch that the redhook in my 90 has the same illness though as it has all the same actions, but not the visible symptoms yet. When I get the meds should I put them together and medicated them?

[Cerianthus]

2 Rd Hooks in 20 G should be OK provided you make sure no NH3/NO2 is present in Q/t prior treating with Kanacyn. Just follow the direction carefully.

Provided that no NH3 is present in q/t, I would not test medicated water during treatment other than pH. One way to find out if Kanamycin affects pH.


You and only you can make the final decision as you can view/observe the fish better than anyone else can.

[Troycool]

Velvet disease in freshwater fish is caused by the protozoan Piscinoodinium sometimes referred to as just Oodinium.
The velvet parasite is also sometimes classified as an algae because it contains chlorophyll. The velvet parasite obtains some of its food source through the clorophyll. It is for this reason that it is often suggested to darken your tank if your fish have a velvet outbreak, as chlorophyll is only active in light.

Symptoms of Velvet in Fish

Symptoms of velvet are similar to an ich infestation. You'll see small whitish spots on the fish, however, with velvet the spots will be much smaller and will not be completely white. In fact, the spots will be more yellowish in color. As with ich, the fish may act ill, with fins held close to the body, and you will often see the fish glancing off of rocks and other surfaces, presumably to dislodge the parasite, as they are irritating to the fish. If the gills are affected the fish will exhibit rapid respiration or gasp for air at the tank's surface.

Life Cycle of the Velvet Parasite

The velvet parasite has two life stages - a free-swimming form and a cyst form. The infective stage of this parasite is the free-swimming stage. During this stage the velvet parasite has 2 flagellae that enable it to propel itself through the water. The free-swimming stage of velvet is very small and is not visible to the naked eye (about 10 microns in diameter).
It propels itself through the water until it finds a suitable host, such as a fish. Once it finds a fish it will attach itself to the skin or gills of the fish and feed off of it.
Eventually it forms a cyst on the fish and remains there until it releases several hundred Piscinoodinium young that are of the free-swimming form. These go in search of another host and the cycle begins again. This is why velvet is so contagious.

Treating Fish Velvet

Fortunately, there are effective treatments for velvet. Copper sulfate seems to be the best treatment. You can use products with acriflavine in them, but these typically have unwanted side effects for the fish. The best product I've found for treating velvet is Coppersafe by Mardel, however, any copper sulfate solution made for aquarium fish should suffice. The only down side to using copper sulfate in your tank is that it kills invertebrates (if you have any).
The good thing about treating fish velvet with copper sulfate is that it also kills the ich parasite. Because of this, you don't need to distinguish between the two parasites. Copper sulfate gets rid of all external parasites in fish.
Keep in mind that it is only the free-swimming form of the velvet parasite that is affected by the treatment. In the encysted stage it is not vulnerable to treatment.
As mentioned earlier, if your fish have velvet, darkening your aquarium may help to irradicate the parasite. Adding a small amount of aquarium salt (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water) may also help.

[Jakezori]

The fish in the 90 gallon ate today!!!!


The fish in the 20 gallon did not however.

I found something locally that might work, but I'm hesitant to put it in. It's either use it or wait until saturday around 4pm for the other med.

It's called sulfathiazole.

[Cerianthus]

Although never used sulfathiazole, I would wait until Kanamycin arives.

How is the symptoms on RH in Q/T? Is it getting worse?

How is the pH?

When caught at early stage and given ideal water condition, fish can heal itself and symptom do disapper on its own. Thus I would wait until med arrives. If fish seems to be recovering on its own by Sat afternoon, I would continue whatever you are doing without any med.

Sulfur based med can contribute to more internal side effects which may cause further deteriorations. I would use Sulfur based med for external infections, if at all..
I would hold off on Sulfa for now, IMHO.

[Jakezori]

I will wait, but if the fish gets any worse I'm going to go with the sulf.

[Cerianthus]

It's your call. Good Luck!

[Jakezori]

Both of my sd's are eating!!!!!!!!!!

Tom, I get the meds!!!!!!!!

It's looking good!

[Cerianthus]

Glad to hear!
It's not over yet so pay close attention to RH until all visible symptoms subside and normal eating and swimming behaviors are resumed.

Looking forward to more GOOD NEWS!

[mel_20_20]

Awesome, Jake!!

[BigFishKeeper]

Good to hear thats the sd's in the 20 are eating.
What fish you keep now??

[Jakezori]

The RH are both looking better and I got some meds. I'm treating the one in the 20 gallon so we will see how it goes.


Stock:

2 RH SD
2 Spotted SD
1 Red Head Eartheater
1 Nicaraguan Cichlid
1 BGK
1 Pleco
1 Raphael Cat

[BigFishKeeper]

Wow nice stock, I might get some more SD'S one day!

[Cerianthus]

It's been few days. Wondering if you notice any sign of improvement after treating?

[Jakezori]

my 90 gallon is doing great after putting the temp to 83 for a week and adding salt. As for my 20 gallon qt rh sd, he is looking much better in terms of capilary damage, but he still has orange brownish spots and they seem to be getting bigger. The ph is now around 7.5 or so for him... I think I'm going to go back to parasite treatment.

[Cerianthus]

I would wait few days before tempting other treatment. Check the water and do pwc as needed basis after treatment is done with antibiotics. If NH3 tend to register, No worrys. Small but frquent water changes will resove it.

Slose-up pics of orangish brown spots possible?

[Jakezori]

sure...

I put some activated carbon in there.. I'm going to stop treating him with that med and go back to the first one i tried.

[Cerianthus]

I would give first med a fulll treatment (maybe 2nd treatment) + few more days to recover before alternating medcation.
You should give a med adequate time to correct the problems..

Exactly what type & brand name of anitibiotic did you use?

[Jakezori]

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/KanaPlex.html

[Cerianthus]

I personally would do 2nd treatment with Kanaplex. Just follow the directions carefully. Perhaps small water changes b/n the treatments. I would consider one full treatment= 3 doses ( 5 days)

[Jakezori]

Ive done 5 days treatment already though.

[Cerianthus]

5 days = 1 complete treatment. How about another full treatment?

I am still thinking spots are related to other symptom rather than parasitc complication.

If memory serves, kanamycin is aminoglycosides(?) thus has amine group attached. As med breaks down, it may produce NH3. For yhis reason, I would test to make sure no NH3 present before starting another full treatment. I would repeat the same procedure with distilled H2O to bring down pH and in lower pH, any possible NH3 which maybe produced during another treatment wont be as harmful/toxic to RH.

[Jakezori]

I will give it 1 more 5 day try, but after that its back to the parasitic treatment. The ph and all is way down but I should test ammonia nitrites and nitrates

[Cerianthus]

Good Luck!

[Cerianthus]

Keep in mind NH3 is converted to toxic form from nontoxic NH4+ form at pH 7.4.

Good Luck!

[Jakezori]

Despite my frequent water changes with distilled water, and addition of bacteria from other filters my levels are as follows.

ph 8

ammonia 1

nitrate 10

I can't find my nitrite card.

I suppose I will do larger water changes and add more bacteria.

[mel_20_20]

Lordie that's not good to have that kind of reading on the ammonia. Do more water changes... you've got to get a 0ppm reading on that. Best wishes to you for your efforts on behalf of your fishies. Keep up the good work!

[Jakezori]

Lordie that's not good to have that kind of reading on the ammonia. Do more water changes... you've got to get a 0ppm reading on that. Best wishes to you for your efforts on behalf of your fishies. Keep up the good work!


You have no idea how shocked I was too see the ammonia that high. I've been doing 50% water changes every other day. I guess it's up to 70% and the addition of more bacteria from my other tanks.

[mel_20_20]

Are you using Prime to help with that. I really love that stuff... I sleep easy at night knowing I have that to detox the water if needed.

[Jakezori]

Are you using Prime to help with that. I really love that stuff... I sleep easy at night knowing I have that to detox the water if needed.


yup

[Cerianthus]

What color is the nitrite ?

I would just use distilled water to do water changes now to lower NH3/NO2 and between dosage thruout the treatments (if mfr recommends it).

I rather not boost BB in Q/T at this moment as long as pH kept under 7.4. As long as
pH kept under 7.4 or even lower and No BB, any NH3 produced during/after treatment by fish or med are in NH4+ and since no BB avail, no NO2 will be produced. Thus no need to worry during treatment.

Correct the water condition before tempting further treatment with any meds.

[Cerianthus]

Any signs of improvement on spots?

[Cerianthus]

Jake,

Hello! Are you there?

Oh, Dont tell me you lost fish due to NH3 exposure?

Still hoping for the best!