Brightening Red Plants

[Captain Hook]

I have some ludwigia repens that isn't a bright red, it's pretty dark. I'm also planning on getting some rotala indica soon and want to get as nice and bright a red as possible. I have decent light, 2 wpg on a 20 gallon. The tank has been set up for about a month and I have started adding small amounts of Flourish. Will Flourish Iron help? I'm trying to keep the tank low maintenance and don't really want to add a ton of chemicals but would like a brighter red if possible.

[Tempest]

Most of the nice reds seem to require high light and Co2. I have the ludwigia repens in my 55 gallon with 3wpg and Co2 and still couldn't get it to turn anything but nice and green until recently when I started really running it *lean* on the nitrate. I've read that keeping the nitrate lower than 10ppm also is a factor with some of the red plants. So I've started experimenting with adding lesser amounts of nitrate more often.

[DIYMatt]

Agreed, I have both Ludwigia Repens and Rotala Indica and they both get more red under higher light and lower nitrate levels and elevated Phosphates, although I don't suggest doing that for too long. Although, my Ludwigia never gets "bright" red. Its more of a darker ed color. Rotala Indica, IME, will turn a nice pink under almost any light. Also, IME the reds appear more red under bluer, higher K bulbs. All other things being basically equal, my Ludwigia looks much more "true red" under my CF lit tank with 8800K CF bulbs than it does under my 5500K Metal Halides even just moving a peice from one tank to another. If you have 55w CF or NO flourescent bulbs the GE aquaray 9352K bulbs really pull out the reds and IMO create a little more compact growth. I just got two four footer to put in a shoplight and they may be my favorite blue bulb so far.

[DIYMatt]

Oh, Flourish Iron...IME if you are iron deficent it might make the plants a little more red. Do you just use reg Flourish? If so, you might be a little Iron deficent. But, the difference seems a lot more noticeable in Crypts, and swords that react more to Iron. You can try it and see. But, be careful, IME too much Iron in conjunction with elevated Nitrate levels(say 10-15 ppm or more) can cause hair algae to go wild. I have not been able to run my tanks successfully with the high nitrate levels(20ppm) some people who have much more experience than me have been suggesting lately. But, I can go higher on the Phosphates than most...go figure.

[Tempest]

I've never observed the iron to have much to do with the red in the ludwigia repens actually.

[plantbrain]

Low NO3 will bring the red out. See APD archives for lots of discussion about it.

With 40w on a 20, this is fine. A triton bulb is nice mixed with a cheap 4100K cool white.

Adding fish and herbivores will help also maintain a low NO3 level as long as you feed the fish __regularly__ with less dosing.

Maybe 2x a week is all you'd need to dose. Maybe less depending on your feeding routine and fish load.
You do not want to add too many fish/feed too much other wise you'll get algae. Getting a good substrate will also make things redder and easier.

It'll take some fiddling to get it just right but it can be a fairly low maintenance routine/tank.

You do not need higher light though to have nice red plants.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Captain Hook]

Thanks to everyone for their knowledgable input. The rotala should be arriving today so I will see how bright it is now and if anything changes.


Originally posted by plantbrain
Maybe 2x a week is all you'd need to dose.

Tom are you referring to dosing Flourish Iron here? The 2 bulbs I am using right now are from Home Depot. One is a Daylight Deluxe (6500K) and the other is Natural Color (5000K, full spectrum). I recently read that "Deluxe" bulbs are not good, can't remember the reason, so I am thinking of changing that one.

Matt right now I am just using regular Flourish yes. I am hoping to keep the tank low maintenance and am afraid of getting bad algae outbreaks. The tank is pretty stacked with plants now and once I add the indica it should look pretty full.

[plantbrain]

I've had a number of tanks like this over the years:

The 6500K lights are good, add a Triton later(whenever you need to place a MO or have credit at the LFS etc).

I dose the following to a 20 gallon with lots of plants at this light level:

5mls Flourish 2x a week
1/4 teaspoon KNO3 2x a week
One to 2 drops of Fleet enema/Rice grain or two's worth of KH2PO4 2x a week


This works great, you might need to add some more fish(best) or add a few more fert's, but this should take care of the dosing.

Add some algae eaters, especially shrimps.

You can add Flourite etc to help also.
Flourish iron is fine to add as a mid week spike(say add 1-2mls) in between the Flourish doses.

It might help a tad.

But you can and should be able to turn this plants from red back to green and then back to red again at weekly intervals if you want.

As you try the dosing routine I sugeested, back off the KNO3 volumes, to less than 1/4 till you get the color you are after and maintain regular feeding for the fish.

Better to keep the plants a little on the green side rather than really red.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Slappy*McFish]

I would like to add that the GE Aquarays fresh/saltwater 9325K bulbs are really good at bringing out the red color of your plants as well as just being a great plant light. Many times the lighting itself will make plants 'look' either red, pink, or even a brownish green. It all depends on the light reflecting off the plant. I switched from a 5000K Natural bulb to the Aquarays 9325K and my rotala went from green to red instantly.

[Captain Hook]

Tom thank you for taking the time to give such good advice! I don't think I will buy a Triton bulb because they are $40 plus tax here in Canada.

The Fleet Enema I will get soon but what is KNO3?

I forgot to mention the tank is 2/3 Flourite and 1/3 Profile so I have a high CEC. So you think it would be good to add Flourish twice a week? Will that make weekly water changes a must?

As for algae eaters, there are 3 ottos in there now. I've never really kept shrimp before. Do ghost shrimp do a good job with algae or will I need a more expensive type?

[plantbrain]

The substrate sounds great.
KNO3=> stump remover, many places in Canada carry it, There's a large store chain call "Tire" something or another that is popular up there that has it.

You can order it from www.litemanu.com also.
Ag stores carry, "potash of nitrate". Hydroponic's places also carry it.

You'll need this, so get some. The Fleet enama can be brough at most drug stores, yoiu can get the generics also.
Look on the ingredients label, should say sodium phosphate etc.

1lb of KNO3 will last a couple of years, maybe longer for a 20.

Ghost shrimp don't eat algae.
I've added 20-50-100-200 to a 20 gal to see, they don't touch it.

The weekly water is easy and fast, maybe 10 minutes, 2 5 gal buckets or you can do the python water changer and not touch a bucket.

It's good since it prevents anything from building up, and the dosing 2x a week will prevent anything from running out.

In this manner yoyu provide the plants with optimal nutrient levels and do not need to test for NO3, K, Fe, PO4 or worry about KH/GH if the tap has enough etc.

Easy, less testing, cheap, effective, works.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Captain Hook]

I should be able to find stump remover and fleet enema easily enough. The store you are referring to is Canadian Tire.

I will try my best to keep up with the weekly water changes. I understand they are really important and don't take that long. I am used to unplanted tanks and giving the bottom a good cleaning. Should I try to vacuum the unplanted sections of the substrate? Do the plants ensure there is no build-up of gases in the gravel?

So amano shrimp or something similar would obviously be better for algae. Do they eat many types of algae, like the stringy hair stuff?

Thanks again Tom, you have helped me a ton and are a great asset to these forums.

[plantbrain]

Well that's the thing, planted tanks need no vacuuming. Sometimes after a big pruning, you may want to lightly vac up/remove the detritus that settles on the gravel but no deep vacuuming ever generally.

So water changes are fast/easy.
Amano's are good for all types of algae except Green water. They are not that good against established BBA, but are decent with new BBA occuring.

Gas formation is common in substrates, plants bring O2 down there, CO2 is burped out by the respiration of roots/bacteria /critters down there.
Some N2 gas if denitrification is occuring but generally this is a small player in most plant tanks. Remove the plants/algae and see how long it takes for the NO3 to be removed.
That will tell you if there are significant NO3 loss to N2 gas.
But CO2 is the main gas you'll fine, you will seldom fine H2S or CH4, which would be the other principle gases.

Generally, there needs to be some organic matter down there to produce gases. If you do not add anythiong organic matter, there's nothing for the bacteria to "eat", you wioll not have any/much gas formation then.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[Captain Hook]

Wow sounds like a chemistry experiment with all those gas formulas! I will make sure the tank remains clean so there won't be any organic matter for the bacteria to live off. I am always pulling out leaves and other plant parts that are floating around.

Do you think if I get 3 or 4 shrimp they will make a difference in a 20 gallon? The 3 ottos are doing a good job but I am seeing some hair algae on one plant that is catching everything from the filter current I guess. My local Big Al's sells clear "algae eating shrimp", think it would safe to assume these are amanos? They are fairly expensive so I don't' want to buy too many.