Question about Clown Loach with Fish TB

[Tay690]

Hi there,

For anyone who has seen my other threads about the 3 mysteriously quick deaths in my Clown Loach tank...I have another question

The one clown is still alive (Lola) and she's looking ... I wouldn't say better but stable

She's not getting worse that's for sure...and she's actually eating again

As of right now the last casualties in my tank were about 2 weeks ago and she's still hanging in there

Her sunken side has stopped eroding further and I think it will fill back up as her appetite comes back more and more each day

Her spine is a little bent but not very noticeable

I just saw that thread SubRosa put up and I'm being extra careful (i'm always extra careful normally...but now after seeing that I'm taking no chances)

The question I have about Lola is...when (if at all) can I put her in a tank with other fish?

She's still in the problem tank...and the water I changed yesterday was so clean it looked like the water that was going into the tank lol

Some people were saying to keep her isolated for a month before adding her to another tank...but with Fish TB never going away...is this a good idea?

Currently she is the only one in the tank with a bunch of snails she seems to pick away at from time to time

What should i do here? I don't want to kill the fish or give it away...she seems content for the most part and I've actually got her used to me calling her and she comes right out of cave and dances around in the light

She really is a great fish...i just don't know what to do here

Do I keep this tank specifically for this fish only? Get rid of the fish and nuke the tank and start over? (Ideally I would like to nuke the tank...but if I can't add Lola to another tank ever...then I'd prefer to keep her rather than get rid of her)

Lil' help?

[platytudes]

What about treating her with Kanamycin? Google kanamycin clown loaches and see what I mean.

I don't think that she would be getting better if she actually had fish TB. Fish TB is much rarer than previously thought. Symptoms are loss of scales, loss of color, lesions on the body, wasting, and skeletal deformities so this doesn't sound like fish TB to me.

I vote for leaving her in there until she is as fat as the rest of them and then returning her to her buddies. If she gets worse, try treating with Kanaplex. This medication is so versatile you could even mix up a batch of frozen food with it.

[Tay690]

It has to be fish TB...I'm also getting pretty gnarly skin irritation

Sunken side, Bent spine and she is much darker than a clown should be naturally

I had another fish die with the same symptoms in that same tank and that's what it came to was Fish TB

I'll take pics if that will help verify it...but if not Fish TB what do you think it could be?

2 of the loaches died with severe bloating...then irradic swimming...then laying on the substrate gasping vigorously

the other died of Fish TB I believe...she was the first to go and her spine was severely bent to the right and she had a sunken side also

[platytudes]

if not Fish TB what do you think it could be?

That I don't know, probably only a vet with a microscope could tell you for sure...not possible now anyway since the fish are not available for autopsy. You should read this article:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Keefer_FishTB.html

I don't think bloating has anything to do with fish TB, though. And fish TB is chronic rather than acute, as you describe. How long from when you noticed the symptoms until the fish died? What I mean is, fish TB doesn't cause fish to freak out and die like you describe.

Even if it is fish TB, Kanamycin is the recommended treatment for Mycobacterium. It couldn't hurt...why not try it?

[platytudes]

Do you use aquarium salt in your tank? Just curious. Here's a discussion on bloat:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45617

By the way, I would be posting your situation on the loaches.com forum - where there are many loach experts.

If you are 100% sure it is fish TB (and I've never been 100% sure of any disease except the unmistakable ich) you should either attempt to treat it or euthanize the fish, because it won't get better by itself. Fish TB causes a slow, painful death.

My guess - and it is just a guess - is that some other kind of gram negative bacteria is at play here, along with something like Malawi bloat.

[Tay690]

Already a step ahead of you on the Loaches.com lol

I'd say I'm 95% sure it's fish TB...you're right you can't ever be 100% sure unfortunately

I will try the Kanamycin ... do you think I should give her a little more time before I start dousing her with meds?

I really appreciate your help honestly...I just want her to be healthy and join all the juvi loaches that think they are the Alpha lol

Wait til they see this girl...there won't be any more bickering amongst the Juvis lol

[Slappy*McFish]

If you're getting skin irritations then you really should schedule a visit to your Dr.
TB is serious stuff.

[Tay690]

Already a step ahead on that one also...going to the doctor tomorrow

I really have to weigh subjecting myself and the fish to this...So far I've been instructed to try Kanamycin and if that doesn't seem to kick the problem then yay for a $200 UV sterilizer...may as well buy another brand new 125g at that price...

If both of those fail I'll have no choice but to Euthanize the fish...I don't know what else I can really do with it

I can't give it away to someone and knowingly subject them to this...Unless someone was willing to take on a challenge and knew what they were getting themselves into prior to taking the fish...I guess I could live with that

God I really don't want to end this Clown...she's awesome and she's a fighter

I guess I'll keep the fingers and toes crossed for the time being...

But she's still alive 2 weeks after the casualties...that's got to be a good start at least right?

If she wanted to die she would've given up a long long time ago I figure...

Thanks very much for all the input / criticism (sincerely)
Always appreciated,
Taylor

[platytudes]

Oh, YOU are getting skin irritations? I thought you meant the fish - like flashing or what not.

Yikes! At least a doctor will be able to tell you for sure...if you have it yourself, then obviously the fish do.

I would go ahead and order the Kanaplex online and make a batch of DIY frozen food, something like European Shrimp Mix.

[Tay690]

Alrighty

I really hope this helps her out...I can't wait to see her out and about and happy like she used to be

She's hanging in there I'll give her that...she's a trooper this one

The water is super clean and she's actually out and about since the kids went to sleep

I can't wait to get some nice pics of her up once she recovers...

I'm going to move her into the fish room either tomorrow or wednesday

See if that helps give her out...maybe she'll recover better with less commotion around her (currently her tank is in the living room)

[mel_20_20]

I think the Kanamycin treatment protocol for Fish TB includes a B vitamin; B6 I think but I will look in my files for that info.

Also, I would seriously go ahead and do the UV. It seems to work wonders for tanks that have this problem. I'm with you on trying to give Lola every chance, but I know those guys really need others of their kind to be happy. The stress of being alone has to be a negative for her, healthwise.

I plan to get a UV sterilizer as soon as possible, after reading the article on Mycobacteriosis by Diana Walstad.

I tell ya, I would be tempted to put some CLs in there with her, once you have the UV sterilizer up and running for a few days, but I wouldn't put her in your main community tank and expose a lot of other fish.

I don't remember what she's in right now, or if the tank she's in is a big enough tank to house her and a few friends. I know CLs need a lot of room and a big tank.

I hope your girl hangs in there Taylor, keep us posted.

[Tay690]

I have a very funny feeling she will hang in there...had a bit of a scare last night to be honest

She was in her cave with her belly towards me...of course from that angle she looks totally white and discoloured and I thought she was gone -_-

Tapped on the plasic and she didn't move again -_-

She is still alive thank god...but Mel is right...she really isn't happy being all alone in that tank

I have a protein skimmer that I got for free a while back...maybe I'll try that to eliminate the surface film I'm seeing

A person at the LFS said he would throw about 5 or 6 guppies into Lola's tank and if they die...then don't move Lola anywhere

Even if the guppies survived he said they would have to stay in that tank and that tank would become kind of like a QT...nothing could or should be moved out of that tank and into another

So basically all signs point to the following:

1. Kill the fish
2. Leave the fish alone in the tank forever
3. Throw other fish into the tank and see if they get sick (another genius option)

So as far as I've read and understand...there's not really any possibility she can recover fully from this...she won't be able to join other fish (which I understand)

But why this guy is telling me to subject other fish to a tank I know has a severe illness...I know guppies are guppies and they breed out of control

But to just knowingly throw a fish in there and give them a "Good luck buddy!"

That's cold IMO

Any other ideas? The kanaplex won't be able to completely heal the fish will it? (i'm still getting it but you know what I mean)

She will hang on that much I'm sure of...so for the time being I'm going to give her the best home possible and do everything I can to keep her alive and healthy...she won't quit so I won't quit

On a side note I have a few more guesses as to what killed my Big clowns and Juvi clowns

I can only boil it down to 2 things:

1. The pipes in the building I moved to are much older than the previous and they are possibly putting more copper into the water than the previous building (guppies don't mind the water at all)

Maybe the concentration of copper in Lolas tank is too much for the clowns which would explain why the snails drop after 24 hours of being exposed to that tank (just a thought)

2. I think the Juvi clowns died because of a mini cycle...When I first put them in I had 6 juvi clowns...took the filter from my guppy tank (which has about 20 guppies in it...way more bioload than 6 juvi clowns)
and began the melafix treatment on the 2nd day after aquiring them
They actually made it through the entire melafix treatment ...but started showing signs of stress and illness about 2 days after (so 9 days after I got them)
I think the melafix did enough damage to the BB to throw the tank into a mini cycle and that was enough to put the already sensitive juvi clowns to their demise

Just some ideas...Yay for being able to hijack my own thread lol