Please help me cycle!

[Stormbreach]

Hello. I was hoping I could get some help, I'm feeling very stupid right now. I got my 16 gallon bow front aquarium more than a month ago. After setting it up with conditioned water and running the Aqueon Quietflow 10 filter for a few days I stupidly decided to put some fish in. I got three zebra danios. An LFS employee then recommended I get two more because more than three would make cycling easier. I was doing a water change every two days as suggested on multiple forum sites. My tests always showed ammonia, never above a 2 ppm. My tapwater contained a reading of 0.5. A few weeks down the road, nitrites started showing up, the first sign anything was going how it should. Not too long after that, my water started looking foggy, and the nitrites dropped to 0, but my ammonia did not. I figured my tank had cycled but the ammonia still showed because it was in my tapwater (remember, I feel stupid now :shakehead:). The fishstore confirmed this, so I got five habrosus cory cats for my cleaning crew. One of the cats passed three days later, another not too long after that. The guy at the fishstore then told me my tank isn't cycling because I'm doing too many water changes and sold me a bottle of Stability (Bio-spira and Tatra Safe Start are not available here in Canada) and told me to treat it for eight days like the bottle says and stop doing water changes. Six days later, I now still have foggy water, my ammonia is going UP to 4 ppm, not down, and I don't know what to do. I don't want my fish to suffer and certainly don't want any more to die, but I'm lost. So many different places tell me so many different things. I am dosing daily with stability and Prime to detoxify the ammonia, and trying to hold of doing a water change because that's what I was told. Sorry for the really long post, but can anyone help me? :cry: Newbie to fish and the forum.

[montanafish gal]

You need to do water changes. Water changes do not disturb or interrupt the cycling process. The purpose of cycling your tank is to establish a beneficial bacteria colony to keep the nitrItes and ammonia at 0ppm. This bacteria grows primarily in the filter media. always clean or rinse your filter media in old tank water, NEVER tap water; tap water will kill the bacteria. Do water changes OFTEN to get the ammonia level down. What kind of filter do you have? does it have a bio-wheel?

[montanafish gal]

read this thread on cycling a tank. It's basically exactly what you need to know.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

[Stormbreach]

The filter I have is an Aqueon Quiet Flow 10. It does not have a wheel, but it has a dense floss filter for particulate matter, a plastic holster that holds it and supports the bacteria, and a 'water polishing' grid that helps add more oxygen to the water before it is put back into the tank. I was getting frustrated because I have been doing water changes every two days for over a month without ever seeing the ammonia go down below a 1. The water got foggy, sometimes no better after a water change and when I ran the siphon/gravel vac over the gravel it was always pulling out more of the whitish fog. I have reduced feeding to every two days instead of every day but things are still getting worse, not better. Thanks for the link to the cycling process, but before ever getting a fishtank I read everything I could find about the cycle, I thought I knew what I was doing but it doesn't seem to be going the way I thought it would.

[tranced]

the most important thing is dont get discouraged, the first few months are the hardest time for a new aquarium, just be patient and things will get alot easier later on.

[ianab]

Cetainly sounds like your cycle process has stalled for some reason.

Not quite sure why, but you need to do the water changes to keep your fish alive. the tank should cycle eventually even if you keep the ammonia down around 0.25 with massive water changes. Reducing the ammonia level may slow the process, less food for the bacteria, but they are able to multiply if there is ANY ammonia in the water. By getting your ammonia level down with water changes, the fish stay alive untill this happens.

Right now I suspect your tank needs some Gunge, dirt, bacteria etc to get things working. I have heard of people using dirt, just normal dirt from the backyard. There is all sorts of bacteria in there, decomposing things and some are the nitrogen cycle sort. Now I've never tried this, but it sorta makes sense. Same idea as using filter gunge from a cycled tank.

The best of course would be to hit up friend that has a tank for some gravel or old media, but as a last resort you could get some rocks from a pond or stream. Keep them wet and drop them in the tank. They will have some nice slimy gunge on them. Dont worry about bringing 'bugs' into the tank, thats what you need right now.

Ian

[NeonFlux]

I agree with ianab. You should ask a buddy of yours or maybe even a LFS for used gravel or filter media;but I honestly recommend a friend or a local fish keeper. If you don't have friends that keep aquariums, then I suggest looking for someone around here that lives in your state/city and ask if they can lend a hand by maybe dropping a bag full of old gravel to you or finding the person's home, or someone could ship you some.

[snapshooterr]

The guy at the fishstore then told me I'm doing too many water changes.

How much water are you changing at each of your water-changes? Without going to extreme, there isn't really a "too many waterchanges". It is possible to change too much though. Doing smaller (10 to 15%), more frequent water-changes is less stressful on the system than larger ones.

How many fish do you have left? If it's just a couple/few danios, you should be fine.

I'd suggest...


Don't get hung up on all the test kit readings.
Go really slow adding new fish. If you have 3 Danios swimming around in your tank, leave them for a few weeks before adding more. Then just add a couple at a time and wait for a good while in-between additions. It's not the most exciting method, but it's safe.
Keep up with regular small water-changes.
Don't feed too much. If you're vacuuming any amount of dirt out of the gravel with only a couple of small fish in the tank, there is too much food going in.
Keep an eye on the filter but don't clean (for awhile) it unless it gets dirty enough that the flow starts slowing down

Then (as stated already) just rinse the filter media in aquarium water during a WC
The filter cartridges for the Aqueon Quietflow 10 look like they are disposable and there doesn't look to be any sort of biological filter media in the filter. Every time you change the filter cartridge/pad you're throwing much of the good bacteria that your tank needs. The bacteria will also grow on any surface in your aquarium but the filter is the most efficient place.


If you're using prime to treat your tap water before adding it to the tank, the ammonia in the tank isn't coming from your tap (unless something is really wrong with your plumbing).
I'll assume the cloudiness of the water is white. What you're looking at is a bloom of the bacteria you are trying to get established (in all likelihood). These blooms are general caused be a disturbance or imbalance in the tank's environment. These bacterial blooms can use a lot of oxygen so if your fish are showing any signs of stress or gasping, make sure you have enough water surface agitation and lower your aquarium's temperature to the lower end of the range your fish will be comfortable with (Danios are alright down to mid-to-high 60's).
Keep your ph above 6! If it goes much below, the bacteria will have a hard time flourishing.
I too like the grunge idea mentioned above. You could even get away with the water that a dirty filter from an established aquarium was wrung out in.

[snapshooterr]

I have heard of people using dirt, just normal dirt from the backyard. There is all sorts of bacteria in there, decomposing things and some are the nitrogen cycle sort.

Sounds good in theory and with a little bit of luck getting a good scoop of dirt, it could be good. But, there are a lot of unknowns in most backyards. Things like dog pee...

"Dog urine is a concoction of ammonia, bacteria, hormones, and uric acid. As the urine breaks down, the ammonia concentration increases and then mercaptans are produced. This is the same chemical compound that gives skunk spray it's long lasting funk. Uric acid contains crystals that are left behind even after the urine has dried. These crystals are reactivated anytime new moisture reaches the area, including humidity."

I'd hate to be the fish swimming around in that.

[Stormbreach]

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will do a water change right away (home sick today). The fish I have left are five zebra danios and three habrosus (tiny) cory cats. Getting filter media isn't an option, the only other person I know who even owns a tank hasn't set it up yet, and the LFS doesn't use the same type of filter I have. The LFS told me that the filter I have is okay to change the media because that grows some bacteria but the blue plastic holster that holds the media in place is designed to be what supports the bacteria. I can change the filter media as long as that holster is never rinsed (that would be suicide:screwy:). I can't leave the cartridge in the tank too long anyway because there's carbon embedded inside the floss, if that stays in too long it'll dump all the toxins it has taken out back into the water. When I do this change I will rinse the floss in the discard water just to remove some of the built up muck without killing off too much bacteria. Here's hopin'. I'll let you all know how it goes from here.

[Stormbreach]

Sorry. To clarify, the holster that holds the filter floss in place is a blue plastic grid with lots of surface area, not just a frame. And to answer another question I forgot, the tank is a 16 gallon and the changes I was doing were about 5 gallon. Maybe that's too much.

[Stormbreach]

Sorry, to clarify about the filter: there is a blue plastic holster that holds the filter floss, and it has a lot of surface area for the bacteria to grow on. According to the company writeup this is where the bacteria is supposed to grow so that you don't throw away all your bacteria every month. And to answer another question I forgot, the water changes i was doing were 5 gallons of the 16 gallon tank, maybe these were too much. And actually, I got delayed in my water change and the water actually looks much clearer than it has in the past couple weeks!

[ianab]

Actually those replaceble cartridges are more about the filter companies revenue than the health of the fish. I'm sure there are some cycle bacteria on the plastic bits, but the surface area of a floss bag is MUCH bigger.

I would be tempted to just dump the carbon from the bag, rinse it out and re-use it. My whisper filter has had the same bag for about 2 years now, no carbon.

The dirt idea is a bit "tounge in cheek", but the idea is that you need "gunge" in there. Go and look in a natural stream or pond, it's full of gunge, probably even a bit of dog pee. Thats what we are actually trying to emulate, not a super clean sterile enviroment.

Ian

[Stormbreach]

Well I tested the levels (couldn't help it) before my water change. Ammonia was either a 2 or 4, probably closer to 4, and the nitrites were at 0.25. Luckily I hit it with Prime yesterday so it wasn't toxic. So I did a water change, did less than 5 gallons this time. My replacement bucket is smaller than my removal bucket so I used two of those, each dosed with a capful of Prime, then after replacing the water I put in a capful of Stability. Then they got fed since they didn't yesterday. Everyone seems to be happy inside and the water is much clearer now. I'll keep everyone updated for when my ammo and ite levels hit 0 so I can add a couple cardinals lol. I know, so very impatient.

[snapshooterr]

doesn't use the same type of filter I have

You don't need the actual filter media to seed the bacteria. You just need some of the gunk out of an established aquarium's filter.
Or, if you can get a handful or two of gravel out of an established aquarium, that, work too.



The LFS told me that the filter I have is okay to change the media because that grows some bacteria but the blue plastic holster that holds the media in place is designed to be what supports the bacteria. I can change the filter media as long as that holster is never rinsed (that would be suicide:screwy:).

OMG!! That's kinda funny. Please tell the clerk at your LFS that they are full of s__t for me. Although what they've told you is technically true that, that little (smooth) blue plastic frame in the filter will have some bacteria on it, the amount is minuscule and mostly irrelevant when compared to the populations of bacteria in the gravel, on tank's decor and all other surfaces in your tank. The bacteria does best when they have LOTS of surface area to populate. Next time you're at the LFS take a look at some bio-balls (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YGAEGN5CL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) or the porous biological filter media (http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00veiQZdCJMIqf/Aquarium-Filter-Media.jpg) for a filter like the AquaClear (HOB) and compare the amount of actual surface area for the bacteria to grow. Trust me, you won't be 'suiciding' anything by rinsing that little blue frame. Sorry for the rant.



there's carbon embedded inside the floss, if that stays in too long it'll dump all the toxins it has taken out back into the water

Carbon will eventually absorb it's fill of elements, chemicals and “toxic” stuff and become less effective as it becomes saturated. Don't worry too much about it “dumping toxins” back into the water. This process happens very, very slowly as the carbon physically & biologically starts breaking down, which happens over the course of months / years.

[Jspigs]

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will do a water change right away (home sick today). The fish I have left are five zebra danios and three habrosus (tiny) cory cats. Getting filter media isn't an option, the only other person I know who even owns a tank hasn't set it up yet, and the LFS doesn't use the same type of filter I have. The LFS told me that the filter I have is okay to change the media because that grows some bacteria but the blue plastic holster that holds the media in place is designed to be what supports the bacteria. I can change the filter media as long as that holster is never rinsed (that would be suicide:screwy:). I can't leave the cartridge in the tank too long anyway because there's carbon embedded inside the floss, if that stays in too long it'll dump all the toxins it has taken out back into the water. When I do this change I will rinse the floss in the discard water just to remove some of the built up muck without killing off too much bacteria. Here's hopin'. I'll let you all know how it goes from here.

In response to what is in bold.

Carbon does not leech (or dump) the toxins it has taken in under normal conditions. If the tank had the conditions required to cause carbon to leech back contaminants it would be too hot for there to be any water in the tank. It might also be possible to use chemicals to cause carbon to release the things it has taken in but these chemicals would most likely kill your aquatic life.


I have seen pictures of the plastic "holster" you have and it does not look to me like it has enough surface area to hold enough bacteria. Many bacteria will probable be growing in the replaceable filter cartridge as well as on other surfaces in the tank.

[Stormbreach]

Should I just scrap the whole thing and start over with a Bio-Wheel? From what everyone's telling me the writeup that came with this filter is a bunch of lies and the filter is basically worthless.

[Ozymandias]

well thay do do a good job of mechanical filtration (water has to pas though the filter) that being said its for a 16 gallon i would want a bigger filter i would probably go with a modified aqua clear (20 or 30) but that personal preference.

just keep at it and don't get discouraged hell i didn't even know what cycling was when i started out.

[Stormbreach]

So is the AquaClear better than the Penguin bio-wheels? I found a cheap place where I can get a Penguin 150, rated for an aquarium up to 30 gallons, mine is only 16. I know you buy a filter for an aquarium bigger than the one you own, surely going double should be enough? Or is the AquaClear better because you can decide what you want in your filter yourself? I think a beginner like me might get confused with all the options available.

[ianab]

Should I just scrap the whole thing and start over with a Bio-Wheel? From what everyone's telling me the writeup that came with this filter is a bunch of lies and the filter is basically worthless.

While a biowheel is a better system, what you have will work OK. Just ignore the instructions, dump the carbon, and keep rinsing out the nylon media as needed.

As long as you have water pumping through some sort of media it will act as a biofilter.

Ian

[Stormbreach]

Well I was thinking of getting a different filter anyway because while this one is rated UP TO 20 gallons, it will probably struggle with a fully stocked 16 gallon. So all I need to figure out now is do I go with bio-wheel or AquaClear? And let me say again everyone, thanks for all your support, I have been needing this right about now!

[Jspigs]

Well I was thinking of getting a different filter anyway because while this one is rated UP TO 20 gallons, it will probably struggle with a fully stocked 16 gallon. So all I need to figure out now is do I go with bio-wheel or AquaClear? And let me say again everyone, thanks for all your support, I have been needing this right about now!

You choice. Both will work very well. But I hear Aquaclears tend to be quieter.

[Tay690]

Aquaclear filters are my favourite
They have Foam Fractionation, Ammonia chips, and Activated carbon filter pads in them
As well as you can control how strong the water returns to the tank

If you buy one that's rated double the tank size you'll have to play with it a bit to get the right flow from the filter

and yes they are EXTREMELY QUIET...I hate tetra filters for that simple reason

I have a Tetra EX-70 on my 55g and it's so bloody loud...the fish must absolutely hate it

[stephenpence]

Just my 2 cents.. i would be careful doing anything to the filter media. just leave it running. and make sure when you get the new filter you decide on that you run them both for a while. I'm always real wary of dumping chemicals in my tank, especially during the original cycle. in fact the only chemical i ever used was to remove the chloramine from my tap water. the bacteria growth is an aerobic reaction so you have to make sure you have a lot of aeration to keep the oxygen levels high enough to keep the bacteria happy. also increasing the temperature of your tank to the 80's will speed up the process. what's your pH of your water? Note ammonia (NH3) becomes ammonium (NH4) in tanks with a pH over 7. from what i understand ammonia is not lethal to fish like ammonium is, so if your fishies aren't goners yet i imagine that your pH is basic. and please please please disregard the previous comment about continuing to add fish slowly before you have your tank completely and entirely cycled. it's hard enough to keep from having an ammonia spike when you increase your bio-load (add fish) in a completely cycled tank. adding them now would only mean more ammonia being produced and no bacteria to take care of it.

[Tay690]

Ammonium is harmless to fish
Ammonia will kill them

http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=aquariumammonianitratesnitrites

Found a better link if you want to read more into it

Long story short...Ammonia converts to ammonium when your pH is less than 6.0 (If I remember correctly)
Now the fact that it's not toxic at that point is fine for the time being...and if your water comes out of the tap less than 6.0 I guess there won't be an ammonia issue
But once the pH gets above 6.0 the ammonium drops an H ion and converts back to ammonia
and if built up (the tank left with a low pH due to low maintenance etc) can unleash excessive amounts of ammonia into your tank to the point your BB and fish will not be able to tolerate

you can almost guarantee a full blown cycle if this happens

and please someone correct me if I'm wrong

[Stormbreach]

I have decided to go with an AquaClear for sure. I actually like the thought of being able to decide what kind of inserts to use, and no such thing as cartridges. I was absolutely going to wait until the cycle was finished before adding more fish, I just also acknowledge that I am inpatient. It might take longer now that I am switching filters though. Another reason I was thinking AquaClear is that it is only $10 more than the biowheel. The great thing is that my local Big Al's sells the AC 70 for less than PJ's Pets sells the 50, and is less than Petsmart's SALE price on the 50!! Reason enough for me.

[Jspigs]

I have decided to go with an AquaClear for sure. I actually like the thought of being able to decide what kind of inserts to use, and no such thing as cartridges. I was absolutely going to wait until the cycle was finished before adding more fish, I just also acknowledge that I am inpatient. It might take longer now that I am switching filters though. Another reason I was thinking AquaClear is that it is only $10 more than the biowheel. The great thing is that my local Big Al's sells the AC 70 for less than PJ's Pets sells the 50, and is less than Petsmart's SALE price on the 50!! Reason enough for me.

Just don't use the ammonia chips as they can starve your bio-filter.

[stephenpence]

hows your aeration in the tank? since all the bacteria growth is aerobic the one way to speed it up is to increase your aeration. maybe run your tank a few gallons low or add a bubbler stone or two. the needed bacteria will come from the air anyways so the more air you have contacting the water the more bacteria arre being introduced and the more they will be able to multiply.

[Stormbreach]

I heard the ammonia chips can take out so much ammonia they can keep the tank from cycling, so even though I've had ammonia from the start I'll resist the temptation to get them. I have one air stone going in one of my ornaments, the filter i have goes through a 'water polishing' wet/dry stage before going back into the tank to increase aeration, so I think I'm good with oxygen levels.

[Stormbreach]

And I worried for a moment about starting from scratch but then I realized I can jump-start the bacteria by cutting the floss out of my current filter cartridge and putting it in the new one underneath the bio-max bag.

[snapshooterr]

Good choice on the AquaClear. Ya, you're right, just stuff all the media out of your old filter into the new one & run it for awhile like that.
One thing to keep in mind about AquaClear filters... They will get noisy over time if you don't clean the impeller regularly and replace them occasionally. Don't wait until they start making noise (it'll be too late) 'cause that'll happen after the pump's impeller chamber will be worn and there's no fixing that.

[Stormbreach]

Well I am the proud new owner of an AquaClear 30. I had a brief attempt with a 70, but even at the lowest setting the flow was far too fast for my little tank. It's only been running an hour, but I am much more satisfied with how media works in this filter, no disposable cartridges. I just hope some bacteria survived in the floss when I ripped it off the plastic frame so it can seed the biomax in this filter.