Brand new to SW, several questions before setup

[as40]

Hello All!

As some of you may remember me posting on the FW side regarding live plants, now I've done it and am crossing over to the salty side (don't panic anyone, didn't do anything with my planted FW, just bought a new tank :p). I've heard that SW, if you aren't looking for a complex reef system or anything like that, is easier than FW live plants, and I'm hoping that's true. I went out and bought a 60 gallon (long) aquarium yesterday. I've done a lot of reading on here, but still am uncertain on several points, so please bear with me, some of my questions may sound, well, dumb.

First off, I want this to be as pain-free as possible. I've gone through (am going through) a lot of agony with my FW planted, what with uncontrollable algea, snails, fungus, pruning, planting, etc., and I put about 5-7 hours a week into that dang tank, which I don't want to repeat with this one.

My questions are as follows:

1. I bought a 20 pound bag of "live sand" along with the tank. LFS employee tried to get me to buy "at least" 3 other bags!!! When I told him no, I was going to pick up some cheap aragonite (sp?) sand, he said they sell it for $0.99 a pound!!! I'm going to Toys'R'Us or Home Depot to buy the rest of my sand. Either Southdown, Old Castle, or whatever sterile, playsand/aragonite sand they have. Was thinking another 50-60 pounds, bringing my total up to 70-80 pounds. Think this is enough? Also, I place the live sand on top of the other sand, right? Put it in before or after adding the water?

2. Cured or uncured live rock? Also, (this is the dumb question) is live rock different than coral, or is it classified as "reef"? And does live rock need strong lighting? I'm trying to get away from the high lights/wattage I have in my FW planted tank first off because of the algea it produces, and secondly, the cost is prohibitive! Lastly with the live rock, I wait until the cycle is finished before putting it in? If so, does the disruption of the sand when I'm placing it harm the live sand, or the stability of the tank?

3. Shrimp or no shrimp? I've been reading a lot about the dead shrimp cycling method, and heard it takes six weeks. How long without it? With the live sand, and live rock, could I just do a fishless cycle, and would I have to worry about the live rock/sand dying? Without live rock, but with the shrimp, do I have to worry about my live sand dying when the ammonia spikes?

I think that's it. I'll write if I think of any more. Sorry for how lengthy the message is, but there's a lot more off the bat I don't know this go-around. You all have been very helpful in the past, so I want to thank you for that and in advance for any input you have on these questions. :D

[OrionGirl]

1. I bought a 20 pound bag of "live sand" along with the tank. LFS employee tried to get me to buy "at least" 3 other bags!!! When I told him no, I was going to pick up some cheap aragonite (sp?) sand, he said they sell it for $0.99 a pound!!! I'm going to Toys'R'Us or Home Depot to buy the rest of my sand. Either Southdown, Old Castle, or whatever sterile, playsand/aragonite sand they have. Was thinking another 50-60 pounds, bringing my total up to 70-80 pounds. Think this is enough? Also, I place the live sand on top of the other sand, right? Put it in before or after adding the water?

I don't think that will be enough--I have about 100 lbs of sand in my 65's. Depends on how deep you wantit--if you have at least 3 inches, it's enough. There is a calculator for this kind of thing (has to do with volume), but I can't find the link right now--maybe someone has it?

2. Cured or uncured live rock? Also, (this is the dumb question) is live rock different than coral, or is it classified as "reef"? And does live rock need strong lighting? I'm trying to get away from the high lights/wattage I have in my FW planted tank first off because of the algea it produces, and secondly, the cost is prohibitive! Lastly with the live rock, I wait until the cycle is finished before putting it in? If so, does the disruption of the sand when I'm placing it harm the live sand, or the stability of the tank?

Live rock is different than corals. Coral refers to a specific animal, like an anenome, or a polyp colony. Live rock is either coral skeletons or porous rock that is colonized by some inverts, but the rock is the more important than some of the inverts, because it is also colonized by beneficial bacteria. Cured vrs uncured--your call. With either uncured or the shrimp, you will have an ammonia spike--that's the point of using them. Without the ammonia, the bacteria lack a food source and do not develop. Some live sand will introduce these bacteria, and the ammonia level increases the size of the colony.

[as40]

The ammonia is food for the live rock/sand? Do I have to worry about the spike killing the bacteria/inverts? Sorry for my ignorance, but I've never done this before...

[OrionGirl]

Ammonia is the food source for the bacteria on the rock/sand. Ammonia is a natural waste from fish and inverts--in a healthy tanks, there are always very low levels present (low enough that hobbyist test kits will not detect it). The live sand/rock are the biological filtration for the tank--similar to how plants and bacteria function in planted FW tanks.

It is harmful to inverts. This is why I prefer cycling a tank with cocktail shrimp, and then adding the live rock, so the inverts have the best chance of surviving. Otherwise, frequent water changes to keep the ammonia levels below 1 ppm are needed during cycling.

[Jason A]

I've been on here on the past for about 2 years but due to inactivity for 5 months my status was inactive. Everyone on here including OrionGirl told me to use good old play sand, and use the shrimp way..

I started off with a 40 gal. I used 2 bags of Quikrite play sand. The stuff that says "50 pounds of fun". Did it like everybody said. That gave my about 5" of DSB (deep sand bed) and since I was using no filtration what so ever and only live rock and the sand, I wanted to make sure it was the right way..

I was a noob... The water looked like milk for over 2 weeks... I had alot of lace rock in there, the SG was fine and I put 2 BIG raw cocktail shrimp in and let her go. I never thought the water would clear up, but on the 3rd. week, the bacteria started to kick some major ***, the water cleared up, levels started to spike, and by the 4th. week or so, the tank was ready for some real live rock and fish...

For 3 months, the tank never needed a water change, the levels stayed DEAD ON, the water was crystal clear without a single piece of filter media at all, just 3 powerheads to circulate water and a cheap ViaAqua Skimmer and that its !!! All the lace rock has been seeded over the last year and has all types of growth and cool things on it..

People come over and ask what filtration do I run and they flip when I tell them. 3 perculas, 2 chromis's, 1 big puffer, 2 small damsels, 8 little hermits for a cleanup crew and eating alge, 2 emerald crabs and nemerous turbo snails..

3 weeks ago, it started to leak around the base (it was a freebe) so I bought a new 80gal show tank and it's almost done. 100lbs. of live sand from the old tank and almost 300lbs. of new sand !!! and it's about 6" deep all the way around.

So when OrionGirl and the others talk, they know their stuff and I would listen !!! If it wasn't for them, my tank would have not turned out as good as it did !!!

As for the sand, no more then 6" if you are relying on it for filtration and ALWAYS use shrimp for cycling !!!

[DEmigh]

Welcome back, if I may presume to offer such a greeting :)

Are you the ;) Jason A who corresponded with Corax at length in the sticky at the top of the Marine Newbie Forum?

[as40]

Six inches!?!?!

I was thinking more along the line of 2-3 at most, then around 1 pound of live rock/gallon, but then I wasn't going to rely on that alone for filtration. Hmm... That'd be more sand than I was thinking... BTW, OrionGirl, thanks for the tip about the calculator, I found a link on another post (http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/SandBed.php).

I think at most I will do 3 inches, but about the other stuff...

Live sand on top of the other sand, right?
After adding the water?
Cured rock if I shrimp cycle, or uncured if cycling that way?
Lights?

Sorry for all the questions; there's just so many different options/opinions out there and I want to get the best. :scratch:

Thanks for the input so far!

[Jason A]

Originally posted by DEmigh
Welcome back, if I may presume to offer such a greeting :)

Are you the ;) Jason A who corresponded with Corax at length in the sticky at the top of the Marine Newbie Forum? I am !! I started out a long time ago doing simple fresh water stuff, then almost a year ago, got bit by the SW bug... but because I'm always doing stuff, I'm not always on.. My first profile had over 200 posts, then the sticky profile show 43 or whatever, and then this one will show 2 now.. how funny..

Anywho, yea, that 40gal tank kicked major butt. Out of the 9 months it was running, there was only 3 10% water changes and that's with no filtration whatsoever !!!

My new 80gal show is almost done... water is getting clearer and clearer by the hr. I hope to have all the creatures back in there by this weekend.

I've got a ton of pics to post but today is my parents aniversary and my bro and I bought them a new 125 show tank with stand so they are gonna flip !!!

I'll get all the pics up either late tonight or tomorrow..

Jason

[Jason A]

Originally posted by as40
Six inches!?!?!

I was thinking more along the line of 2-3 at most, then around 1 pound of live rock/gallon, but then I wasn't going to rely on that alone for filtration. Hmm... That'd be more sand than I was thinking...
I think at most I will do 3 inches, but about the other stuff...

Live sand on top of the other sand, right?
After adding the water?
Cured rock if I shrimp cycle, or uncured if cycling that way?
Lights?

Sorry for all the questions; there's just so many different options/opinions out there and I want to get the best. :scratch:

Thanks for the input so far!

When starting a new tank, if you have live sand and new dry sand, put in the live sand as the base first, then the new sand on top.

As for the depth, again, I'm using the DSB as part as my main filtration along with the live rock. If you are using a another filtration system, we need to know cause that'll us.

[OrionGirl]

Sure, live sand on top. The thing about the packaged sand--it isn't likely to have much in the way of bacteria. The bacteria that we need in our aquariums are not proven to have a stasis state--meaning, if they don't have a food source, they die off. In off-the-shelf packages, there is not a food source, so the chances of introducing the beneficial bacteria is pretty slim, IMO. So, it doesn't matter too much where you put the live sand. Also, it will eventually be mixed up anyway--just the way things happen in a tank.

For adding water--I prefer to put sand in BEFORE adding water. Then, add the water carefully, into a bowl placed on the sand. This way, the sand is not stirred into a milkshake. Pouring sand through the water will gaurantee you a milkshake.

Cured rock AFTER the cycle with shrimp, or uncured rock with frequent water changes.

Lighting will depend on what you want in the tank. For fish and mobile inverts, strip lights or shop lights will be fine--the light is mostly for your viewing pleasure. Supporting corals will require more and better lighting--anywhere from 3 watts per gallon, on up to as much as your pocket book will support, depending on what you want to keep. For a decent variety of reef inhabitants, on a 60, I would go with power compacts or T5's, targetting about 6 watts per gallon in the 10,000K and actinic range.

[as40]

Cool! Thanks very much for the info!

That is very enlightening. :D

Um, Jason A, can't tell you yet what filter(s) I'm going to be using, was just going to buy the sand and get some ideas on water, rocks, and lights first. :emb:

Then I was going to come back and ask about filters, heaters, and protien skimmers, hehehe... As you can see, will be awhile before my tank gets ANYTHING going. But now that you bring up that point... Anyone, opinions? I've got a couple brand names for skimmers already to do some research on (AquaC Remora, CPR Backpack), but that's about it.

Thanks again everyone!

[Jason A]

Also AS40, I'm right here in West Hills / Calabasas right off of Valley Circle so as soon as my 80 is peachy or if you just want to see the whole startup process, come on by.

[ben72227]

remoras (and bak paks) seem to be the top H.O.T. skimmers right now. as for filters, most people use them for water flow only and occasionaly to clear up the tank (use carbon if it gets clowdy and to kill off medicines). As for heaters, EboJagers seem to be one of the better, more reliable brands.

[as40]

:argh

I've come to the conclusion I'm an idiot!

Okay, I panicked a little and was impatient. Nothing that can't be fixed (I hope, and not lose $50.00). :argh

Here's the deal. Went to Home Depot. They didn't have Old Castle, or Southdown, or anything labeled as Aragonite. They did have something called <P>aragon (no typo), a kind of tannish-colored sand under the "play sand" area, but I freaked out when I looked at the back label and read a warning saying their product contained materials known to cause cancer. I figured, if it is bad for people and they're selling it for "play sand", it can't be good for fish, right? The only other stuff they had in the store was this very white, fine grained sand labeled as (if memory serves correct) "Kiddie Play Sand - Fun for All" or something to that effect. It didn't have any warnings on it, but it didn't say what it was made out of either, and it only said it had been washed and dried, not sterilized.

So I tried Toys'R'Us, they're out of sand until the summer season kicks in. No place else had jack. So I went to the LFS, was overwhelmed by the salesman, and purchased a 50 pound bag of crushed coral, size "zero", which has the look and consistency of sand, but on the way home I thought to myself that I made a terrible mistake, because what if it doesn't work the same as sand, as far as bateria culturing, etc.

HELP! ADVICE? Should I return it for store credit (if I can) and buy the cancer sand, or the mystery sand from Home Depot?

[Gealcath]

Regular old Silica playsand will work as well, it just wont buffer the water, but will work for the bacteria. In my 15gl SW i used 1 10;b bag of aragonite "live" sand and enough play sand to make a 3"-4" bed (got a 50lb bag of sand for $5).

[as40]

Do you have to worry about the silica being bad for the fish? I heard somewhere that silica was toxic to breathe, etc.

[ben72227]

sillica can cause cancer. but nothing to worry about. it's kind of like asbestos and when coal miners breathe in coal dust : it takes a long time to actually do anything.

sillica can be used and is used (when aragonite can't be found) as saltwater subtrate. HTH

[as40]

Yeah...

That's not reassuring. ;)

I went back out in venture of sand, with my paranoia in full kick-in mode. I re-examined the bag-o-fun at the hardware store, and sure enough in the fine print that one had a cancer warning too. All the other sand was either too course, too dark for my liking, and the rest of it cancer causing silica! :shake:

So try as I might I couldn't find good, cheap aragonite.

So I took my newly purchased bag-o-crushed coral back to the LFS. There I told my sad story to the manager, and swaped it for a couple bags of aragonite live-sand. An even swap. And bought one more bag at a discounted rate. So altogether I've got four bags now of clean, carcinogen-free "live" aragonite (80 pounds). It cost me a hell of a lot more than any DIY method or non-pet store purchase, but I FEEL better now. Peace of mind has to be worth something, I guess. I read on this forum, someone said that good stuff is rarely cheap, and cheap stuff is rarely good. :soda:

Not only would I feel wierd working on a weekly basis with something I was worried would give me cancer down the road, no matter how far down that may be, but I'd feel guilty for my tank. Is that a stupid sentiment? I can't help but feel that if it isn't safe for people, it may cause harm to my expensive soon-to-be pets. And I like the other aspects of the aragonite over other substrates as well, such as how it buffers the water.

So now that the substrate is out of the way, on to everything else. :D

Thanks all for the info! Also, Jason A, was your "cheap" Via Aqua skimmer any good? LFS only seems to carry that brand. The one they are selling has a small UV sterilizer on it too, for whatever that's worth. (I say "cheap" because the one they're selling costs $130.00, which is more than I'm used to paying for any sort of filtration/aquarium mechanism.)

[Jason A]

For me, others on this board told me ONLY PLAY SAND... NOTHING ELSE.... don't **** around with expensive LFS crap or let them sell you what you don't need...

My 40gal worked flawlessly... I told 3 others to use the QuikRite or whatever Playsand. the stuff that says "50 pounds of fun" at the top. It works for them. period. It has worked for many, many others on here as well, so make your own decisions from that. 300 lbs. cost me about $20.

As for the Skimmer, I did get the UV unit, but it's only a 5w and its not really enough to do anything anyways so I took it out. Plus, unless you are running a very specific type of tank with a very specific type of filtration, you do not want to run UV. Plus a Skimmer takes out Iodine, so if you are planning a reef system, you need to add suppliments to the water and watch the levels.

The unit I think is a good unit. Some will mock it down but they have never owned it or seen it in action. It produces a nice quality foam and does a good job. For the money, you can't go wrong and more and more seem to be trying it out. It's good only up to about 60gal so it might be time to get rid of mine cause of my 80gal. I'll let you know in the next 2 weeks or so if you are interested cause i'll need a bigger unit.

Jason

[Gealcath]

Almost everything on the market can cause cancer, even sugar substitutes can say it can cause cancer. Diatom algae feeds off any free traces of Silica as it is, and also just because something isnt safe for humans doesnt mean it will effect animals (like various diseases wont effect a dog but it will effect a human)
Remember when something says it may cause cancer, it only applies to Humans, most animals are not tested.

[as40]

Jason, yeah, let me know when you get your new skimmer. At this point I wasn't thinking reef (don't want to hassle with the lighting that would be needed for that), I don't have the $$$ for that game, so don't know if the iodine loss would be as much of an issue. FOWLR, I believe is the abbreviation. Even that is not going to be cheap, for as much rock as I'll need. :rolleyes:

Gealcath... (Nod head to you)

You make a good point, but does that make it any better, that even if our tank inhabitants are safe, we may not be? Hehehe... I don't know, at the time I didn't like the idea and was scared, but if after this I STILL don't have enough sand or whatever, then heck, I guess I'll have to just buy some play-cancer sand and mix it into the lot, as I won't have any more money for anything else!

[Jason A]

I'll see how this one does, if it's overtaxed, then I already know which one i want ($$$:o). And again, anytime you want to come over and check it out, let me know, by the weekend, I'll be ready to put my fish and the rest of the live rock in there so we'll see.

[Gealcath]

Well i would just go for it, concerned about sand thats used in sand boxes and in playgrounds is abit much, its just like avoiding all public places for fear of second hand smoke :)

[DEmigh]

California, a.k.a. Granola Land (the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes :D ) has some stupefying labeling laws.

I'd have to guess that the "cancer sand" label is cya for some mad-scientist's experiment in which innocent rodents were exposed 24/7 to conditions equivalent to a Saharan sandstorm and eventually developed cancer from the silica dust.

[as40]

Yeah, thanks all... Didn't mean to come across sounding like a dred-locked, sandal and hemp wearing guy who only eats organic and rides a urine powered bike with hippy slogans all over it to work or anything... Hehehe...

DEmigh, Gealcath, thinking about it rationally, you're probably right. Jason, thank you for the offer. I think whenever I get a chance in the next several weeks I might take you up on that offer to check out your setup. Been busy with working since my boss has been out from a car accident, and planning a wedding and all...

I'm getting over my initial reaction, I guess. I'll still keep what I've already got with the live sand that's aragonite. Don't want to hassle any more with returns/searching, plus I like the look and consistency of it, but anything else I may need to add to the volume (which looking at the volume I have, I have a feeling I will need a bit more) will be the cya-labeled stuff that's cheap.

My family just seems to have a history of cancer, so that's why I freaked. My grandfather (who is passed away) wore an asbestos fireproof jacket when he worked on the deck of a carrier in the Navy during WWII, and he got all kinds of cancer, and died pretty young (in his 50's). My grandmother, who lived close to some coal plants near the border, got cancer and died from it (in her early 60's). I've had one or two brushes with potential "skin cancer" where they've had to cut out a couple chunks of my skin. So, yeah... :shake:

Say, now that the substrate issue is like that horse buried out back :D , what do you guys think about this:

For the water, that LFS sells R/O water that already has the salt perfectly measured and mixed into it. It's not too expensive per gallon, so was thinking of using that at least to initially fill the tank, and once that's going, just getting the plain R/O water which is cheaper and mixing in the salt myself as needed. I already have some Kent products which are supposed to help buffer the water and add calcium and all that good stuff (sorry, I'm at work right now so can't look at the label and tell you exactly what it's called).

The LFS doesn't sell any cured LR, only uncured. So, was thinking about going for it and using that to cycle my tank instead of the shrimp, with frequent water changes. But, how "frequent" and how much, on average, would you say?

Also, am going to be heavily researching heaters and powerheads right now, as I need to pick those up before I think of getting LR or water or setting up at all, so any particular models and sizes for a 60 that you guys can throw out would be great.

[OrionGirl]

For the cycling, you'll want to do water changes to keep the ammonia around the 1ppm mark. A bit lower is fine--don't let it get much higher. Ditto for nitrites.

Powerheads: I am really happy with aquaclears. They are reliable, easy to maintain. Don't waste your time and money on the 'sweeper' styles--they tend to become clogged with growths of algae, sponges and stony tube worms pretty quickly, rendering them motionless. Cool idea, difficult to implement.

I've had really good luck with Ebo Jager heaters--YMMV. I'm going with Pro Heat II--titanium, remote digital readouts for the 120's, but as of now they are still in boxes. ;)

[DEmigh]

Originally posted by as40
[...] Didn't mean to come across sounding like a dred-locked, sandal and hemp wearing guy who only eats organic and rides a urine powered bike with hippy slogans all over it to work or anything[...]

:laugh:

ROFLMAO & PMP

:laugh:

[as40]

Oh yeah, another thing I'll need. Definately a testing kit. Though from what I've read on here even the good ones can be wildly off, so will have to do some homework and maybe see if the LFS would do samples for me to confirm/question whatever readings I will come up with.

Oh, also, what's YMMV?

Saw the Pro Heat II at this site: http://www.marinedepot.com/a_ht_wb.asp?CartId=

Not too bad a price I guess, what size should I go with? Was thinking the 150W would give me more than 2w/gallon, but not sure if to be safe I should go overboard with the juice and get the 350W. Only a $10.00 price difference, for more than twice the power. Also, how do most of you Salty Folk position/place your heaters? :)

[OrionGirl]

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

I liike having 2 heaters that each are about 1/2 - 3/4 the total needed power. I'm leery of them shorting out and frying tanks--though it's mostly just older models that do that. Either one should be okay, unless you keep your house pretty chilly. I have a 2 200 watt heaters in 180 gallons of water, and it stays pretty solid at 78--the rest of the house is closer to 65. The heaters are not on all the time, either, so I think it works well.

I put heaters in the sump. The need to be someplace where they get lots of water flow, so the water is more evenly heated.

[as40]

That makes sense about having two heaters, and having them where the water flows most. I always hated the traditional heaters, what with the dead spots they create, uneven distribution of heat, etc. My FW tank has a tetratec combo where the heater is inside the filter box, so all the water being sucked through the filter is evenly being heated... I like it, works well.

I was thinking this... See what you think. Heat rises, correct? So, was thinking of laying the heaters horizontal (if the cords will permit me to do so) on the bottom at the back of the tank. Also the plus of this is that you don't see as much of the ugly equipment. Maybe two 150W, I think that should be enough. One on either side of the back. Ideally where I'd be placing the powerheads, to blow the heat throughout the rest of the tank.

[OrionGirl]

Yep, that will work nicely. I've used the same method in my FW tanks and have never noticed a serious temperature variation from spot to spot.

[as40]

Come to think of it, I have a friend who even used to BURY his heaters under the gravel. This was in a FW tank, so don't know what this would do under sand, in a SW. Think it would hamper the heat transfer, or heat up the substrate too much, harming the live sand? Or, think it might affect the heater's temp. reading, screwing up when it goes off and on? On first thought, it sounded kind of cool (once again, minimizing how much equipment you see).

[OrionGirl]

There are substrate heaters out there, but they are mostly used in planted FW tanks--and even then, not often. They get mixed reviews in terms of effectiveness. I think it would reduce the water movement over the heater, and may result in hot spots.

[as40]

Yeah, I think I'll scratch that idea... Will just have them almost on the bottom, a little above the gravel on either side. Thank you OrionGirl! :)

Now, with the powerheads... I just have to decide which one to choose from... Maxijets, Aquaclears, or ViaAquas...
Also, unsure where exactly I should place them, closer to the bottom (directly above the heaters), or submerged just above the top. And do I have to have ones that turn over tank volume six or seven times like I'm reading or will less do (if you combine two smaller powerheads can you add the amount of turnover [3+3=6])? I'm just thinking the more powerful models are gonna take up more tank room and potentially run more noisy.
Lastly, I imagine I will have to locate some sort of slip/sleeve to put over the bottom where the intake valve is, to prevent waste material/poor little fishies or other things from getting sucked into the inner motor compartment. Haven't seen any advertised. :confused:

Fun stuff.

[JasonA]

I will say that ViaAqua and MaxiJet's are excellent units. I have both in my tank, and never a single problem. Also remember that both of them are 100% sealed, oil-free and can run dry without damage... unlike Rio pumps..

I've heard sooooooooooooooo many bad things about Rio's it's not even funny...

I just bought another ViaAqua 1700 to help out circulation in the new 80 so now I'm up to 16x times per hr.

[as40]

I found this link for the ViaAqua 1300 Pump:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=VA2715
Doesn't have a picture (I visualize better with a pic than the sizes, though that's nice to have also), but I like the sound of this one because a.) it's cheap b.)it's got 6 times the tank volume turnover and c.) it's got a six foot cord to make plugging it in without extension cords, etc. a lot easier (http://www.marinedepot.com/a_ph_va.asp?CartId= explains a lot better the differences between the models).

But, noise? Bulkiness? Do I need two if the one has that much flow?

Thanks, Jason! After finding your other postings and seeing many other people slam the Rio's I know now not to go that route. Funny, that's the only brand of powerhead pretty much that the LFS carries. :rolleyes: Guess I'll be ordering online.

[JasonA]

I don't get it either... I goto 2 "high-end" LFS's and they have Rio's... I tell them about burning up, smoking up, leaking oil, etc.. and I read this on all the online forums and they say...

"Oh...no... we've never heard of that or have seen those problems, only burned out impellers"....

yet, in all their show tanks, not a single Rio to be found and all the ViaAqua,MaxiJets,etc and other pumps are out of stock, but plenty of Rios on hand..

I wonder why;)