Soil selection help...

[Ara]

Hi!

So, I am going to start a low-tech planted tank with my new 12 gallon eclipse...

I've read up on it a lot, and found a lot of suggestions to put planting soil on the bottom, covered with the substrate/gravel.. and some sites suggested just using standard regular ol' planting soil..

So here's my question.. I bough a bag of "Floral Premium Plus All Purpor Soil", which contains humus, peat moss, perlite, and horticultural lime"..

Would that work? I am unsure about the addidtives - I read that peat & humus is good.. but. not sure on the rest? :huh:

Or does anyone have a better suggestion?

Thanks!

[platytudes]

I've never done a Walstad type tank, but have thought of it, and have always figured I'd just use plain topsoil for the least muss and fuss, and then add dry ferts later - something akin to root tabs. But I've especially heard that Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil is recommended by Diana Walstad.

I figure anything with peat in it will release too many tannins (unless you like the look) and anything with perlite is going to have those little balls floating to the top. I'm not sure about horticultural lime, I have never heard of that being used in aquariums and not sure it would be desirable...although I know she recommends adding something like eggshells or crushed coral for buffering, so who knows? But here's a list of soils Diana Walstad recommends: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method#Soil_types

[CrimsonBlush]

Interesting thread...I don't have any info to offer, but I'd like t see what others say

[jones57742]

I'm not sure about horticultural lime, I have never heard of that being used in aquariums and not sure it would be desirable...although I know she recommends adding something like eggshells or crushed coral for buffering, so who knows?
Ara:

Lime is a "serious" basic compound.

It will raise the Ph and increase the hardness.

I do not know that I would do this one.

TR

[DeeDeeK]

I think the soil you have might be just fine. Horticultural lime is generally pulverized limestone and I've read that sometimes it contains dolomite, which is a limestone-like mineral composed of magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate. Either one is alright, especially in that soil, where it has doubtlessly been added because it brings the soil's pH up - otherwise it might be too acid since it's made largely of humus (often acidic) and peat (always acidic) and would only be present in enough quantity for that purpose. I'd guess that the soil and the lime would both affect the pH of the water to similar degrees and remain in balance, unless the acid is more soluble in which case the balance of the pH will be lower. I'm pretty sure that calcium carbonate (limestone), which dissolves pretty slowly, would not outstrip the soil when they're underwater any more than it would terrestrially.

Limestone provides calcium (an important trace mineral) and carbonate, both of which contribute to "hardness." It also may contain other trace minerals. And, in the case of your submerged soil, aids nitrifying bacteria by preventing the environment from becoming too acid for them.

This is all assuming that the labeling on the soil is accurate and "Horticultural lime" really indicates pulverized limestone rather than slaked lime (calcium hydroxide), which is also used at times to affect soil pH as well as suspended in water for a bioavailable calcium supplement for saltwater aquaria called "kalkwasser." It is rather caustic (used in lye-free hair relaxers and Nair brand depilating cream) and [I]could[I] be a bad thing in the tank except it would be present in balance with the acidic soil components to arrive at a reasonable pH, as your soil certainly has. At any rate, it is rather unlikely to be slaked lime though it is possible. Another compound called lime is also called quicklime - calcium oxide. I just mention it because somebody may tell you that lime is a calcium oxide based product, which horticultural lime definitely isn't. Anyway I, personally, wouldn't worry about the lime. Anyhow, I noticed you keep guppies. THEY will love the lime in the water - just like home!

My main problem with the soil is the perlite. It will magically work its way up and out of the substrate and float around being annoying. I promise you this. However, there is a simple solution; dump your soil into a big tub of water and swirl it around a bunch and the perlite and other buoyant annoyances will float. Skim or poor them off and allow the soil to settle. If you like, leave the soil in the water for days and weeks, measuring for ammonia. Eventually the most readily decomposed organics will finish decomposing and releasing ammonia. Also, the soil will cycle and when you set up your tank with it, it'll be pre-cycled. You can just keep your soil in water and let it decompose to its heart's content - the organic content will continue to diminish while the minerals remain dip into it whenever you want to set something up with soil substrate. Also, the tannins will all leach out finally and if you change the water every so often, you'll have nice mineralized, cycled soil which leaves your water clear and isn't very prone to mucking up the view when it's disturbed in the aquarium.

Another thing to look for in potting soil is "mushroom compost," which is very nutrient rich but also frequently high is salts. It can be a little too rich and salty for your aquarium depending on how much soil you put in it. Soaking the soil and doing a few water changes will take care of that.

Were I to set up a soil substrate type tank, I'd likely choose a nice, bagged topsoil rather than potting soil but I'd still definitely give it the tub-o-water treatment. I actually have some wood and peat compost based potting soil (contains "horticultural sand," which I suspect is actually lime, mushroom compost, and ground up tree bark) that I used to amend some sand to jumpstart it with some organics to decay and release CO2 and mineral nutrients like mulm does down in a sand bed. It has probably 10% floating crud, it stains the water like a light amber tea, but it has the quality of containing virtually no silt-like or clay-like particles to cloud or haze the water. At any rate, I have it sitting in a big big bucket that I stir up every few days and sometimes change the water in (with conditioned water so the cycle doesn't have to be repeated). It'll be nice to have this soil on hand in a month or so when I am going to be starting a business involving pre-set up low-tech "nature" style nano tanks.

I am considering setting up a test one this coming week using this sand with ~1 mm diameter grains such that it's straddling the gravel-sand boundary as the capping substrate for the soil. I hate gravel, colored gravel, aerators like airstones/air pumps, and flowerhorns (they're just ugly, I mean, come...on!). Just had to interject that, the mention of gravel made it come to mind.

Anyways, I suggest you give that soil the soak-in-a-tub-for-weeks-and-weeks treatment. Or at least give it a few swirls, skim off the floating stuff, let it settle and then repeat several times - removes any excess salts if there's mushroom compost in it and gets rid of haze and cloudiness causing particles.

Don't sweat the lime. I'd use that soil without hesitation if I had it rather than the soil I do have.

[mes1234]

I have had a organic soil planted tank before and I will never use soil again. I did, however, get wonderful growth from it. The reason I will never use it again is that it is soil. It seeps through the gravel and makes a mess of EVERYTHING! It just makes a mess of everything.

[Davy]

it contains dolomite

:grinyes:

[petluvr]

I've never done a Walstad type tank, but have thought of it, and have always figured I'd just use plain topsoil for the least muss and fuss, and then add dry ferts later - something akin to root tabs. But I've especially heard that Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil is recommended by Diana Walstad.

I figure anything with peat in it will release too many tannins (unless you like the look) and anything with perlite is going to have those little balls floating to the top. I'm not sure about horticultural lime, I have never heard of that being used in aquariums and not sure it would be desirable...although I know she recommends adding something like eggshells or crushed coral for buffering, so who knows? But here's a list of soils Diana Walstad recommends: http://theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method#Soil_types
Agree Walstad does in fact use Miracle Grow potting soil.

[Ara]

Wow, thanks for the great responses! DeeDeeK, you really know your stuff about planted tanks! Impressive!



Anyhow, I noticed you keep guppies. THEY will love the lime in the water - just like home!


I am, in fact, planning on making it a guppy tank! I did not know they would like the lime, good to know!



I suggest you give that soil the soak-in-a-tub-for-weeks-and-weeks treatment


I think that is definately what I will try... I wasn't going to start planting the aquarium for about a month (gotta save up for the plants ... and my LFS does not have much so I will have to look around for some decent ones =P).. so I figure I'll just soak the soil in it for that time.. I'll just monitor the water conditions and eventually get out all the little floating perlite balls :D

I might end up with one big gross mess too, but it's an experiment ^_^ .. When it gets going I'll post the progress.

[DeeDeeK]

Wow, thanks for the great responses! DeeDeeK, you really know your stuff about planted tanks! Impressive!



I am, in fact, planning on making it a guppy tank! I did not know they would like the lime, good to know!



I think that is definately what I will try... I wasn't going to start planting the aquarium for about a month (gotta save up for the plants ... and my LFS does not have much so I will have to look around for some decent ones =P).. so I figure I'll just soak the soil in it for that time.. I'll just monitor the water conditions and eventually get out all the little floating perlite balls :D

I might end up with one big gross mess too, but it's an experiment ^_^ .. When it gets going I'll post the progress.

Oh, in a short period like a month, you might want to keep the bucket o' mud warm and oxygenated to accelerate the decay and cycling. For once in my existence I am recommending the use of an airstone to cause the water to circulate.

I don't know much about planted tanks actually. I do know a bit of chemistry, a bit about substrates, and a smidgen of bacterial lore, and a thing or two about a thing or two. Oh, and a little about ecology and evolution (species don't evolve in isolation - they actually evolve together, integrated in a community, which itself evolves! This can be demonstrated scientifically. Hence the tendency of natural elements to settle into stable arrangements.) but thank you for the compliment!

[gagaliya]

You are not going to grow much of anything with that stock 13W eclipse bulb, so it's a moot point what kind of soil to select.


Hi!

So, I am going to start a low-tech planted tank with my new 12 gallon eclipse...

I've read up on it a lot, and found a lot of suggestions to put planting soil on the bottom, covered with the substrate/gravel.. and some sites suggested just using standard regular ol' planting soil..

So here's my question.. I bough a bag of "Floral Premium Plus All Purpor Soil", which contains humus, peat moss, perlite, and horticultural lime"..

Would that work? I am unsure about the addidtives - I read that peat & humus is good.. but. not sure on the rest? :huh:

Or does anyone have a better suggestion?

Thanks!

[DeeDeeK]

You are not going to grow much of anything with that stock 13W eclipse bulb, so it's a moot point what kind of soil to select.

I disagree based upon the specifications Eclipse gives: 12 gallons, 13W 5000K PC light, 17" height.

If you look at many larger sized tanks, you'll see a lot around 22" (like a standard size 55 gallon is 21" and a 60 gallon is 23 7/8") height, and many low light plants will grow in them at the ~1wpg level. At only 17" from the bottom of the tank, the intensity of light from a bulb delivering 1wpg will be 1.67 times greater, as the inverse square law governing the relation of light intensity and distance from the source shows us that every time the distance is cut in half the strength of light at the new distance is quadrupled. So our light which delivers 1wpg at 22" will, although still the same real brightness, deliver at 17" the equivalent of a 1.67wpg light at 22". 5000K is a fine color temperature for growing plants. Direct sunlight at noon, in the summer, is in that neighborhood and on an overcast day, light from the sky's color temperate is closer to 6700K. Of course, just because a light has the same color temperature as sunlight that doesn't mean it has a lot of power at the wavelengths most useful to plants. It's pretty safe to assume that the spectrum (the range wavelengths and their intensities that a particular source of light emits) of the bulb does contain sufficient intensity at those wavelengths to support plant growth. Even a standard GE warm white cfl will support plant growth -seen it, done it.

So, at the equivalent brightness of a standard 55 gallon tank with 1.67wpg, with an adequate spectrum (our safe assumption) and color temperature of 5000k, you really should be able to grow some nice plants.

[plantbrain]

Worm castings is also a very good method, and a bit more consistent in terms of how to make it and the results are stunning as well:

http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/e_tank0311b.php

This is with CO2, but slowing things down without CO2, the supply and type of nutrients still functions and works wonderfully.

Folks can also DIY their own worm castings also.
ADA and some other similar products are mostly clay soils rolled into grains.
But they are nice and look good, make a less messy issue if you end up mixing the sand and soil layers.

As I do not like such mixing, I use the commercial brands for my own tanks vs the DIY which I use for research pots etc.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[gagaliya]

I disagree based upon the specifications Eclipse gives: 12 gallons, 13W 5000K PC light, 17" height.

If you look at many larger sized tanks, you'll see a lot around 22" (like a standard size 55 gallon is 21" and a 60 gallon is 23 7/8") height, and many low light plants will grow in them at the ~1wpg level. At only 17" from the bottom of the tank, the intensity of light from a bulb delivering 1wpg will be 1.67 times greater, as the inverse square law governing the relation of light intensity and distance from the source shows us that every time the distance is cut in half the strength of light at the new distance is quadrupled. So our light which delivers 1wpg at 22" will, although still the same real brightness, deliver at 17" the equivalent of a 1.67wpg light at 22". 5000K is a fine color temperature for growing plants. Direct sunlight at noon, in the summer, is in that neighborhood and on an overcast day, light from the sky's color temperate is closer to 6700K. Of course, just because a light has the same color temperature as sunlight that doesn't mean it has a lot of power at the wavelengths most useful to plants. It's pretty safe to assume that the spectrum (the range wavelengths and their intensities that a particular source of light emits) of the bulb does contain sufficient intensity at those wavelengths to support plant growth. Even a standard GE warm white cfl will support plant growth -seen it, done it.

So, at the equivalent brightness of a standard 55 gallon tank with 1.67wpg, with an adequate spectrum (our safe assumption) and color temperature of 5000k, you really should be able to grow some nice plants.

no you cant, unless you float a couple easy stem plants on the water top or put some anubias/ferns/mosses in there, in both cases soil still does not matter. Having 50watt on a 50 gallon is not the same as 10watt on a 10 gallon. Height matters, but not to the extent you mentioned. 5500k to 10000k are all fine, but bulb temp has no relevance to this discussion.

most times people do tend to over emphasis lighting while overlook co2, but there is a minimum lighting requirement and most plants will not grow in a stock eclipse 12, period.

[plantbrain]

Bulb efficiency from a 13 W is very low compared to a 55 w PC lamp, there is the issue, less so with height but that is a factor as well.

I'd use 2x 13W for the 12 gal. Also, with 2 bulbs spaced apart more, you get a better spread of light, so there's more angels and less self shading from other plants.

And if there's any issues, you can turn one off, and then the other on later, or just use at a time in other words.

So you have some options.
Another way to reduce light is to use a layer or two of metal screen for windows between the light and splash guard.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[DeeDeeK]

no you cant, unless you float a couple easy stem plants on the water top or put some anubias/ferns/mosses in there, in both cases soil still does not matter. Having 50watt on a 50 gallon is not the same as 10watt on a 10 gallon. Height matters, but not to the extent you mentioned. 5500k to 10000k are all fine, but bulb temp has no relevance to this discussion.

most times people do tend to over emphasis lighting while overlook co2, but there is a minimum lighting requirement and most plants will not grow in a stock eclipse 12, period.

Well, plantbrain helpfully points out that the 13w PC bulb is less efficient than the 55w PC, so it's all out the window. I believe that if the distribution of the light is even across the surfaces of the 10gal and the 50gal at the same power and efficiency from sources at identical distances from the surface, the surfaces will be equally lit but of course since they are different depths, the floors of the tanks will be unequally lit.

Any who, I kept an Oddysea B9, nine gallon aquarium about 15 inches height and with an 18W PC bulb/tube/whatever you call it and high light plants grew very well, not stalky at all. Variable leafed water hyacinth grew lushly from the substrate on up (never allowed to become emersed). And substrate/soil does effect many rooted plants. The hyacinth I mentions insists on rich soil. I bet plantbrain is on the money suggesting two 13w PCs since the tank is probably longer and seems to be a bit higher than the old B9.