Ich or Velvet?

[Aquarius0015]

Here are the symptoms in my community tank: very small, whitish-yellow specks (salt grain) on the caudal and dorsal fins. The guppies and betta do not have nearly as many as spots as the platies, and they are much smaller in addition. It is nearly impossible for me to detect a goldish sheen (that is normally indicative of velvet) on my platies as they are orange and gold.

I have had temperature at 82* and using 1 tbsp salt / 5 gallons and Jungle Brand Ick Guard for about a week, but the result has only been more spots. The only affected fish seems to be a lethargic female betta. Her fins are clamped although no one else's are. I just discovered some QuIck cure in my fish 'drawer' so I added that in lieu of Ick Guard today (I ran out and cannot find it now that I am at college and not at home anymore).

I am also scared/paranoid that I may have transferred this problem to the 5.5 gallon and would like to do treat it, too, just in case. It already is at 81* and is kept with 1 tbsp + 1 tsp salt (for the shrimp). What can I add that will not kill the poor ghost shrimps?

Edit: Clarified a few points.

[Aquarius0015]

I just looked at the ingredients of the two medicines, just to make everything crystal clear. QuIck Cure is: "Formalin, Malachite green." Jungle Brand's Ick Guard is: "Victoria green, nitromersol, acriflavine."

On the Skeptical Aqaurist, it says formalin and m. green is successfully used to treat velvet and ick, maybe I should fully switch to that?

[Aquarius0015]

I bought Maracide today at the LFS to add to my arsenal of parasite fighting meds. Active ingredients: Malachite green, Chitosan.

I don't know if it's similar chemically to the formalin/m. green mixture of QuIck Cure, but at this point I'm desperate.

[ScottoMacD]

First of all don't worry. Every aquarist gets ich at least once in their lives.

Malachite green, temp raised above 82 and salt is the way to go.

I personally don't like quickcure but if that is your first choice then go for it. Just don't change meds half way through the treatment.

Keep in mind that ich has roughly a 16 day life cycle (some say more some say less). The only time you can kill it is when it is in it's tomite stage. Run a google serach on the freshwater ich life cycle to see what I mean.

This being said you have to treat the tank for a full treatment. I usually go for two weeks. Better Safer than sorry. This is the only way that you can be sure to solve your problem.

After you have solved the current batch you should look back and see if you can find out what originally caused the problem. IE: stress, water quaility, etc...

This way you can be sure to help avoid another outbreak.

Good luck.

[often dignified]

I know know if you have ich or velvet - I've never seen velvet.

However, you put 3 different ich meds in there - plus salt????? Just be patient.

[ScottoMacD]

Originally posted by often dignified
I know know if you have ich or velvet - I've never seen velvet.


Velvet (Oodinium) has dusty look to it. It is harder to see usually seen when you look at the fish on an angle. Whereas ich looks more like salt grains.

[Aquarius0015]

After you have solved the current batch you should look back and see if you can find out what originally caused the problem. IE: stress, water quaility, etc...

There is only one cause of ich, and that's transmitting it somehow from one source to another. I already know the culprit: a red wag platy (the first to die).


Malachite green, temp raised above 82 and salt is the way to go.

I have 2 meds with M. green. QuIck cure has m. green AND formalin, Maracide has m. green AND Chitosan. Which do I use? I also want to treat the betta tank, but I need to make sure that the meds don't kill them.


Just don't change meds half way through the treatment.

I know that you shouldn't change meds, but I bought the Ick Guard bottle at home. I ran out yesterday. I'm in college now and the LFS I use does not carry the Jungle line.

One clarification: I'm doing water changes every other day.

Sorry if I'm snappy, but I have been very patient and the ich has gotten *much worse*, not better (hence the belief I might have velvet instead of ich). This last 1 week infestation is part 2 of an earlier 2 week long infestation that I thought I had cleared up. Part 1 and part 2 had a peaceful 6 day interlude.

Edit: Fixed muddy word choice.
Edit 2: by "I need to make sure that the meds don't kill them" I am referring to my ghost shrimp.

[ScottoMacD]

Originally posted by Aquarius0015


There is only one cause of ich, and that's transmitting it somehow from one source to another. I already know the culprit: a red wag platy (the first to die).


I have 2 meds with M. green. QuIck cure has m. green AND formalin, Maracide has m. green AND Chitosan. Which do I use? I also want to treat the betta tank, but I need to make sure that the meds don't kill them.


Not true. Ich is a parasite that live in just about every aquarium. It can get there by numerous ways. When the fishes immune system is weakened. IE: temp drop (The water temperature is fluctuating) , stress from being bullied, bad water quailty, Too many fish in the tank, The tank is too small for the fish, . Ich then can attack and begin the epidemic.
This is way some tanks that are established and healthy that have not added anything new can be plaqued by an ich outbreak. Same goes for a tank with a solitary fish.
The Ich outbreak can stress out the fish to a point where secondary diseases can infect the fish.

You stated with the quickcure I would stick with it. Playing around with the meds can cause you more greef than good.

[Aquarius0015]

I don't want to sound like an arrogant know-it-all, I'm far from an expert. However, I did read this about Ich before beginning my initial treatment almost a month ago. It's from my favorite fish website, the Skeptical Aquarist under the "Ich Myth" section of the Ich page:

It's possible that the myth of Ich "lying low" in the aquarium in an imagined "dormant" stage, may have come from confusing Ichthyophthirius multifiliis with a similar marine ciliate parasite called Cryptocaryon irritans. People like to call Cryptocaryon "Ich's marine counterpart." In marine aquaria, I'm told, Cryptocaryon (which means "hidden spore") can remain infective for up to thirty days, especially at low temperatures! If this is true, it's an insidious parasite, and much more difficult to eliminate than our familiar freshwater ciliate. But perhaps a habit of confusing the two--— by calling them each other's "counterparts"--— has helped create the myth of a counterpart "dormant" life stage for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.

The whole article can be found at: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

[ScottoMacD]

Never mind.

Just forget everything.

I'm not going to get into some sort of P_ssing contest with you.

You asked for help. I posted what has worked for me the last 20+ years of aquarium keeping. As well as what as worked taking care of 190 tanks at work.

Believe what you want. It's your right.

Skeptical Aquarist is a great site, been there many times and read many things on it. wetmanNY has helped me out a few tiimes. So you should follow what they say.

But why come to ask here if you have the answers??

Anyway. Best of luck. Hope the ich gets cured fast.

[Aquarius0015]

I'm really sorry I upset you. I was just trying to be logical and thorough.


But why come to ask here if you have the answers??

I never said I have all the answers. I did happen to remember that one fact about ich dormancy, but there are still vital questions that the ich article did not address, namely which medication is safe for my shrimp, is Maracide as effective as QuIck Cure (I will continue with QuIck Cure in my main tank, but I might use the other in my betta tank), and why have the treatments so far this week resulted in an increase of the spots instead of a decrease?

[ScottoMacD]

I have only used a hospital tank when treating. I wouldn't treat my tank with the shrimp in it because it is also my planted tank.

I would suggest reading the instructions for anything about inverts. If it has no warnings about dosage or using it with them in the tank I would assume that it is safe for the inverts.

One thing I do know however is make sure that the product you finally decide to use has no copper in it. Copper kills inverts.


As for the spots. It all depends on how fast you catch the disease. In most cases it will get worse before it gets better.

Our cherry barb tank in the store just got ich bad. We decided to go a new route. We are treating with a regular does of quickcure in the morning and then a regular dose of formalin in the PM before closing.

I added a little salt and raised the temp to 85. Then added an airstone because formalin will affect the O2 levels at higher tempuratures.

The reasoning is that you can double dose formalin in a day. With the quickcure which has formalin in it. We add the second daily does direct.

We normally wouldn't experiment but the tank was forgotten and not checked over a couple of days for numerous reasons. (bottom tank, black gravel, dark fish in the corner etc...) So the barbs are in one sorry state. They must have had it for at least 3 days. We didn't expect many to survive so we are giving the heavier dosing a go.

[Aquarius0015]

Thanks for the advice! I appreciate it, and the advice of all the other helpful, experienced people here at the AC forums. I would have given up a while ago without you guys. :)