Glimmer of hope?

[myswtsins]

So I am winning the battle with my fish illness, LOTS of WCs & a little salt and everyone is healing up nicely. (Details HERE (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218298)) After seeing that the female that was in the basket healed up so well I was sure it had to be battle wounds with secondary infections as some of you suggested (thank you!). So I am treating the syptoms for now but I need to resolve the root of the problem, aggression. Trouble is they are all equally aggressive! :D (except the acei because they just mind their own business) Everyone chases everyone but I NEVER see any real contact even (but I know it is there) so I can't figure out who to get rid of.

Current stocking
1:5 Mainganos
1:2 Albino Socolofi
1:5 OB Red Zebra
0:3 Yellow Labs
2:0 Acei
1:5 Cobalts


The only guys I do not want to part with are my acei & OBs BUT I am getting very worn down with this game of catch up & replace and the constant balancing act that is required for Mbunas. I have 3 tanks of OBs, albinos, acei & yellow lab fry/juvis to try to even out the numbers but their numbers are leaning towards mostly male (yet again).

Do you think a tank this size would do better with only 2-3 species in larger numbers? (Say 12 acei, 7 Obs & 7 yellow labs)

At what point is it ok to add a second male to a species group? I have 2 male OBs I really love, how many females would be needed for 2 males?

[blue2fyre]

Congrats! Glad your winning, it gives me hope.

I have found with my msobos that having a second male causes them to bicker with each other and not worry about the females. My male msobos just chase each other and occasionally have a lip locking contest. The females are left untouched.

If it were me I would keep the acei, OBs, maingano and socolofi. I think besides the acei they are pretty matched as far as aggression and would give a nice color pallet.

[myswtsins]

Thanks! The mainganos are first one the list to go because they are among the most aggressive in the tank, are dark & hide all the time, just not thrilling me over all although they are gorgeous up close but I rarely sit directly in front of the tank. I have 7 of them and hardly ever see them.

The albino socolofi are one of my favorites though! But they are definitely bullies, with the new setup with the 2 rock piles the 3 albino own the entire left pile and they only come out to chase others away from their pile so even though they are one of my top choices, in my effort to reduce aggression they gotta go. My choice of 3 would have been acei, ob & albino socolofi if it weren't for those factors.

I figure with acei, obs & yellow labs I will only have 1 aggressive species well out numbered by less aggressive species (as recommended to me previously) & lots of color and activity.

I find it amazing that I can have an aggression issue that I can only see the results of (wounds & hiding) but never the battles, very frustrating. :wall: And this tank has someone looking at it most of the day between the 4 of us in the house.

[blue2fyre]

Sorry about the mainganos. I only have one left and he shows up pretty well in my tank and is active. He is a punk though. I have lighter colored rocks and different lighting which maybe why mine shows up more.
I wish you lived closer, I'm in need of some mainganos!
The yellow labs with acei and OBs sound good but I always worry about the more aggressive species being too much for the mellow species. I finally found balance in my tank when I matched up the aggression levels. But each case is different. When I had more acei they took the brunt of the aggression since they were more peaceful.

[justinf67]

So I am winning the battle with my fish illness, LOTS of WCs & a little salt and everyone is healing up nicely. (Details HERE (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218298)) After seeing that the female that was in the basket healed up so well I was sure it had to be battle wounds with secondary infections as some of you suggested (thank you!). So I am treating the syptoms for now but I need to resolve the root of the problem, aggression. Trouble is they are all equally aggressive! :D (except the acei because they just mind their own business) Everyone chases everyone but I NEVER see any real contact even (but I know it is there) so I can't figure out who to get rid of.



I told you the power of salt is amazing huh? glad everyone is healing up




Current stocking
1:5 Mainganos
1:2 Albino Socolofi
1:5 OB Red Zebra
0:3 Yellow Labs
2:0 Acei
1:5 Cobalts


The only guys I do not want to part with are my acei & OBs BUT I am getting very worn down with this game of catch up & replace and the constant balancing act that is required for Mbunas. I have 3 tanks of OBs, albinos, acei & yellow lab fry/juvis to try to even out the numbers but their numbers are leaning towards mostly male (yet again).

Do you think a tank this size would do better with only 2-3 species in larger numbers? (Say 12 acei, 7 Obs & 7 yellow labs)

At what point is it ok to add a second male to a species group? I have 2 male OBs I really love, how many females would be needed for 2 males?

Okay, the problem here is a simple one. Ur tank I am assuming has a 48'' footprint. The amount of species u have in this tank is usually reserved for a 125 6 foot tank...

If u really want to nip it and have a higher chance for success, u need to narrow it down to TOPS 4 species. U really want the ratios as good as possible. Ur dead set on the ob's and the acei. Ur numbers on the acei are wayyy too much. If it is infact a 48'' tank. If that is the case, I would say 1:4 or 5 at the most as they are large mbuna. Red zebra males are well known for being very aggressive when they mature. Its hard to see as most get them young and dont witness it. I have a male that I have grown up who is still pretty small at 3.5'', but the sudden sexual maturity he has become a little terror... Since this is the case, I would say 1 male ob max...I know this sucks, but it will help calm aggression. The 2 other species u keep are whatever u want, but keep a good ratio. No more than 1 male... Multiple males usually dont work out well, as they ignore the females and fight instead, which is not what u want....

So, in a nutshell, lose one male acei and add 4-5 females. Lose one male ob and make sure there are plenty of females for him...Ur call on the other 2 species, but again, ONE male is important for success. U can up the female numbers, like the female ob's. The volume of ur tank allows a little higher female #'s

[efors]

I also agree with the 4 species idea. But IMHO, the best combo would be: labs, aceis, socolofis and mainganos. That is because I think the zebras may be the main suspects of your tank's aggression issues.

[myswtsins]

The advice changes here as often as Pitbull changes his stock. :) I was overall (and unanimously) advised to stock this tank with 25-30 Mbunas of 5-6 species at 1:4 ratios which included an even larger species originally all the while being told that 20 Mbuna would not suffice as overstocked.

Like I said it is hard to tell who the real aggressors are but I am pretty sure it is not the OBs. Mostly because they are always out and about unlike the others. But maybe that is a bad thing? Do I have it all backwards? When I researched this tank before setup I was under the impression that this would be a very active lively tank but since maturity I have not seen that to be true, which is very disappointing & why I love the acei so much.

So you think 4 species would be better than 3? Any particular reason? I'd prefer 3 species so I can sneak as many acei in there as I can. :D I should also mention that when I remove the extra species I will keep them in a 160g+ holding pond until I am sure of the correct mix. I worked too hard and long for these guys to take any chance of getting rid of fish I may want/need.

[blue2fyre]

I would like to mention that I didn't just come up with the 2 male idea. I was advised to do this by a very experienced fish breeder who does many talks in my area. He's also vice chair of our local fish club and on the board of trustees for the ACA. I took his advice pretty seriously and I was surprised how well it turned out. I'm not sure if it's just because of the msobo temperament but it did work. The subdominant male gets chased a lot but usually that's it. The females are left untouched.

[justinf67]

The advice changes here as often as Pitbull changes his stock. :) I was overall (and unanimously) advised to stock this tank with 25-30 Mbunas of 5-6 species at 1:4 ratios which included an even larger species originally all the while being told that 20 Mbuna would not suffice as overstocked.

Like I said it is hard to tell who the real aggressors are but I am pretty sure it is not the OBs. Mostly because they are always out and about unlike the others. But maybe that is a bad thing? Do I have it all backwards? When I researched this tank before setup I was under the impression that this would be a very active lively tank but since maturity I have not seen that to be true, which is very disappointing & why I love the acei so much.

So you think 4 species would be better than 3? Any particular reason? I'd prefer 3 species so I can sneak as many acei in there as I can. :D I should also mention that when I remove the extra species I will keep them in a 160g+ holding pond until I am sure of the correct mix. I worked too hard and long for these guys to take any chance of getting rid of fish I may want/need.

Okay, I was not part of that group. A 48'' tank should be stocked as a 55g almost since the footprint is similar. U can def do 3 species. That is actually prob safer. I was advising since most want more, lol...

As for the ob's think about it. If they are out and about, thats pointing to them being the aggressors as the rest are hiding from them. I agree that its prob them, but one male and a close eye can help. Aggression is usually not seen. I can turn the light off on my tank and watch them for like 20 min and there are fights going on between fish that I never knew about.

This next statement is not a bash on this site. This site is helpful and has very friendly members. I do frequent it some. But, for serious cichlid knowledge, there are more(numberwise) knowledgeable forum members at cichlid-forum.com... If u have questions, post there as well because u will get another side to the story...

the acei is tricky. they get large and are open water swimming fish that some say need a 5-6 foot tank. so to add a ton would be pushing it. U can up your other numbers, but acei should be in a larger footprint tank

[myswtsins]

I should clarify that I do only have 1 male per species in this tank, except the acei & I think the cobalts are not a 1:5 like they were given to me as but a 2:4. The other male OB I like is a 2.25" juvi in my grow out tank that I just can't seem to let go of. :)

What you're saying about the OBs being out and about makes perfect sense but doesn't seem to fit what I am seeing. What I see is that the fish are usually being chased out of the caves so the least aggressive fish are stuck out in the open. If the OBs were my main problem I don't think he would tolerate nearly ALL the fish hanging around his cave, he lives in the center of the right rock pile. The female OBs (3 of which are holding) & yellow labs are the only ones that normally hang out around the pile instead of inside it.

Notice in the pictures nearly all the fish are on the right side? The fish on the left are the albinos, the male maingano and his main squeeze (he likes one female in particular), & the male cobalt (who resides just outside the rock pile towards the middle). They keep everyone on the other side of the tank, always! Usually the acei are swimming around together but lately they have been hiding on the right side too.

I am not trying to argue, I swear! :) It is just that what I am seeing in my tank doesn't seem to match the normal circumstances so I am just trying to convey what I am seeing which is that most of the fish not in caves are the less aggressive ones, holding females, acei & yellow labs.

[justinf67]

I should clarify that I do only have 1 male per species in this tank, except the acei & I think the cobalts are not a 1:5 like they were given to me as but a 2:4. The other male OB I like is a 2.25" juvi in my grow out tank that I just can't seem to let go of. :)

What you're saying about the OBs being out and about makes perfect sense but doesn't seem to fit what I am seeing. What I see is that the fish are usually being chased out of the caves so the least aggressive fish are stuck out in the open. If the OBs were my main problem I don't think he would tolerate nearly ALL the fish hanging around his cave, he lives in the center of the right rock pile. The female OBs (3 of which are holding) & yellow labs are the only ones that normally hang out around the pile instead of inside it.

Notice in the pictures nearly all the fish are on the right side? The fish on the left are the albinos, the male maingano and his main squeeze (he likes one female in particular), & the male cobalt (who resides just outside the rock pile towards the middle). They keep everyone on the other side of the tank, always! Usually the acei are swimming around together but lately they have been hiding on the right side too.

I am not trying to argue, I swear! :) It is just that what I am seeing in my tank doesn't seem to match the normal circumstances so I am just trying to convey what I am seeing which is that most of the fish not in caves are the less aggressive ones, holding females, acei & yellow labs.

So, 2 male acei and 2 male cobalts in the tank and ur wanting the other ob male u like in there. Like I said, its tough sometimes, but one male ob will be the best. I hate when I like my growouts....

I am not around to witness ur tank, so the more info the better, its not arguing. I am pointing out that male red zebras can be terrors. In ur case, it seems that isnt the case, although I wouldnt rule it out.

In fact, maingano, socolofi and red zebra tend to be higher on the aggression scale anyway. I have removed a male maingano and I have 3 currently that I may rehome due to aggression, so its possible its them as well... My male albino socolofi is a mini terror as well. he doesnt take any crap from anyone.

Seeing the pictures paints a telling story. if u have that many fish on that side of the tank for more than a short period, it tells an aggression tale. Either the albino or the male maingano are prob the culprit. I would guess the maingano. U said u do not like them and they always hide. So, move them.

What u need to do is decide what u want. Pick how many species. 3 or 4. Then pick which ones u want to keep in the tank. U said acei and ob's are ur top two. Pick a 3rd and possibly 4th that u want to keep.... I would add 3 more acei, preferably female. 1 male ob with 4-7 females depending on how many different species u decide to keep and go from there. First things first, since the maingano and the albino are taking half the tank, u need to rearrange the decor to break up territories. This may lead to fighting be warned. It will also give u an opportunity to witness aggression and who is the worst. Plus, it will hopefully change the balance of power... If u are choosing to remove the maingano and albino's when u rearrange would be a good time. Or, if u want to see for urself how it goes down, watch first them pull what u are moving....

[blue2fyre]

I really think you could keep your other male OB if you had enough females. It's usually recommended to have 1 male per 4 females. That seems like enough. I've heard of species with similar aggression levels have the same recommendation. One warning is it sounds like you have a pretty easy going male OB, you never know what the second one end up like. My male OB killed one of his females and tried to kill another. Though since then I have wondered if I had a second male would it have been prevented. No one can say for sure.
The male acei won't really care about each other so I would say they are fine. With the cobalt I'm not sure. I'm thinking I have an extra male white top hara but it's so hard to tell sometimes. My dominant male leaves him/her alone besides some chasing.

[myswtsins]

Thanks Justin, you've been a great help!

I have no problem with 1 male to 4-7 females, I know it is best. I just figured I'd ask because I really like my new little guy. :D

I'm going to shoot for....
1:4 acei (own 1:0, growing out more)
1:6 OB (own 1:6)
1:6 Yellow labs (own 0:3, growing out more)

Based on appearance the albino socolofi would be my 3rd choice, hands down, but based on aggression I'd be crazy not to go with the yellow labs! I just rearranged the tank 2 weeks ago & have been watching them since then for this purpose & healing status.

I can't add the new females when I remove the old groups because they are still growing out. The OBs are 2.25"+ so they'd be ok but the yellow labs & aceis are only 1.25" and unsexable still.
---------

Blue2fyre-Thanks for the info. I'll keep this in mind! I currently have the juvi OB (about 2.25") in a 20 long with other males (what I believe to be males based on blue sheen & aggression) trying to separate them out till no more in the 30g tank show dominance (my own way of finding my females before venting size). He is definitely a bully in THAT tank but nothing more then chasing them from the entrance of his cave but he is still young too. So maybe he wouldn't be a good idea after all, we will see how things turn out.

[justinf67]

I really think you could keep your other male OB if you had enough females. It's usually recommended to have 1 male per 4 females. That seems like enough. I've heard of species with similar aggression levels have the same recommendation. One warning is it sounds like you have a pretty easy going male OB, you never know what the second one end up like. My male OB killed one of his females and tried to kill another. Though since then I have wondered if I had a second male would it have been prevented. No one can say for sure.
The male acei won't really care about each other so I would say they are fine. With the cobalt I'm not sure. I'm thinking I have an extra male white top hara but it's so hard to tell sometimes. My dominant male leaves him/her alone besides some chasing.

I disagree with the keeping of the 2 males, especially one that has the temper of a red zebra. In the next sentence u mention ur male ob killed a female and almost another. Im curious what ur m:f ratio was at the time, as if it was 4, this shows u may need a couple extra females to spread his aggression around. If u had a 2nd male, it would not have been prevented as the 2nd male would have prob been the first to be killed....just my opinion. I have 4 males of different species in my 55g and 3 out of the 4 are flashy and like their own area. Males claim territory and theres only so much of it in a 48'' tank...


I agree, the 2 male acei isnt as big a deal since they are pretty peaceful. But, no matter what species, the males tend to be higher on aggression scale, so if possible add 3 females. cobalts are in the same class as red zebra almost. big and burly fish, lol...



Thanks Justin, you've been a great help!

I have no problem with 1 male to 4-7 females, I know it is best. I just figured I'd ask because I really like my new little guy.

I'm going to shoot for....
1:4 acei (own 1:0, growing out more)
1:6 OB (own 1:6)
1:6 Yellow labs (own 0:3, growing out more)

Based on appearance the albino socolofi would be my 3rd choice, hands down, but based on aggression I'd be crazy not to go with the yellow labs! I just rearranged the tank 2 weeks ago & have been watching them since then for this purpose & healing status.

I can't add the new females when I remove the old groups because they are still growing out. The OBs are 2.25"+ so they'd be ok but the yellow labs & aceis are only 1.25" and unsexable still.
---------

Blue2fyre-Thanks for the info. I'll keep this in mind! I currently have the juvi OB (about 2.25") in a 20 long with other males (what I believe to be males based on blue sheen & aggression) trying to separate them out till no more in the 30g tank show dominance (my own way of finding my females before venting size). He is definitely a bully in THAT tank but nothing more then chasing them from the entrance of his cave but he is still young too. So maybe he wouldn't be a good idea after all, we will see how things turn out.

New stocklist looks great! I might even add another female ob if the desire strikes u. The more females for the ob, the better. He should be a pretty happy camper with 6-7 females. Yellow Labs are not known to have too aggressive males, so ratio isnt AS important, but if u can do one male to that many females, even better....The one thing that arises to me is the zebra lab crossbreeding. U may get some hybrid fry. Red zebra love the yellow coloration. I went another route and got msobo. As my male red zebra has come into maturity, he doesnt care what fish it is, he is trying to get some. He has 5 female red zebras with him and still tries to mate with my msobo as well....If u plan to save fry, watch that development, as I would suggest against it, but its ur tank :)

You said ud be keeping the others in a pond. If the new mix works out, u still MAY have room to add the albino's, but if u do, watch for signs of aggression. if u do this, they will be las in the tank, so at the bottom of the pecking order, which may keep them in line....

Also, how big are ALL of ur growouts and how big are ur current stock? if u add fish the same size(adults) there can be problems with them integrating as they view them as competition. smaller they wont be looked at as competition. not always the case though, lol... When u add or remove, def do a rescape though, as it helps to break up the territories...hope this is helpful.

[myswtsins]

Yes I am aware of the cross breeding. These guys have bred MANY times and I haven't had an issue yet. IF I ever was to end up with hybrids they wouldn't be sold or given away. Fry do not survive in this tank anyway unless I strip the females and add the fry after they are at least 1".

I just updated my tank thread, you can click the link in my signature for photos of my growouts.

11 - Yellow labs - 1"+
14 - Acei - 3 are 2.25" & the rest are 1.25" but I am pretty sure the 3 2.25" are males.
19 (9 females) - OBs - 2.25" sexed!
~10 - Albino - 1.75-2" unsexed

*EDIT* updated the growouts with amounts.

[justinf67]

Very, very nice. U put my growouts to shame, lol. Mine are 2 10g fry tanks, with sponge filters and a lot of algae. algae equals food for them, if they are bored. the 2 10's have the bottom and back painted black do they arent AS ugly. then theres the 40g with all my random growouts. I find it to be too much of a pain to make it pretty, lol...

I see why u want the male ob in the tank now, what a stunner!

[myswtsins]

lol, thanks! I love the rockwork & it is SOOOO easy in these tanks compared to the big tank!

I forgot to say how large my stock was, duh! Largest fish is the Acei at close to 6", most are about 4" though. Since you say it is better to add the new females at a smaller size I think the Obs are ready to go in but maybe not the acei & yellow labs, besides the fact I can't sex them yet. At what size do you think they'd be safe? Anything under an inch is hunted down, fought over and devoured, unfortunately I saw this first hand! 1.5" maybe?

[justinf67]

With a 6'' acei and most being over 4, I would wait till the 2'' mark to be safe. Now, all tanks are different, so if u add them at the small size, def keep an eye on the reactions of the fish and make sure they arent too stressed or attacked. Introducing while smaller is the better way to do it though as like i said, they wont see them as competition, so they should leave them alone

[myswtsins]

Thanks Justin!

[Fishfiles1]

i was just wondering if toughs are fake plants or real they look pretty good to be fake, if they are what brand are they, i would like to add some to my tang tank

[efors]

1)The advice changes here as often as Pitbull changes his stock. :)

2)Like I said it is hard to tell who the real aggressors are but I am pretty sure it is not the OBs.

3)So you think 4 species would be better than 3? Any particular reason? I'd prefer 3 species so I can sneak as many acei in there as I can.

1)Come on, that's impossible!
2)OK, nobody knows your tank better than you. Your reasons are very convincing.
3)I just said 4 species because I thought you were wanting to keep a higher # of species. I still think you can have that many species in your tank; but of course, 3 species is a safer option.

[blue2fyre]

I disagree with the keeping of the 2 males, especially one that has the temper of a red zebra. In the next sentence u mention ur male ob killed a female and almost another. Im curious what ur m:f ratio was at the time, as if it was 4, this shows u may need a couple extra females to spread his aggression around. If u had a 2nd male, it would not have been prevented as the 2nd male would have prob been the first to be killed....just my opinion. I have 4 males of different species in my 55g and 3 out of the 4 are flashy and like their own area. Males claim territory and theres only so much of it in a 48'' tank...

I had 1 male and 3 females with 5 other OBs that were reaching maturity. I get that your against 2 males. I would have said the same thing months ago before I got my msobos. Now I have 2 male and 2 female msobos and the males leave the females alone and they are a mature size that have breed before. The advice I was given was sound and I trust it. It makes since too, with another male the dominant male has something else to worry about besides beating up his females. The subdominant male has no territory so it's not an issue of enough territory. I would never suggest a beginner do this kind of set up but I do believe that myswtins has the experience and knowledge to pull it off. Also it's a well decorated tank with plenty of volume and hiding spots. She also has plenty of female OBs to make up for another male. That was my advice and I stick by it. I don't believe I am wrong, I just have a different view. We can just agree to disagree.

[justinf67]

I never said u were wrong to do so. I just disagree. Does youe subdom male color? Or is he a washed out pale color? Have the msobo bred? I worry with the extra male, u will just get an ugly subdom who gets beat up while the females get somewhat ignored and never bred with.

Its not an issue of whether u can make it work, its do u want to if u get limited breeding and no color from the subdom

[efors]

This next statement is not a bash on this site. This site is helpful and has very friendly members. I do frequent it some. But, for serious cichlid knowledge, there are more(numberwise) knowledgeable forum members at cichlid-forum.com... If u have questions, post there as well because u will get another side to the story...


Ouch!!! That hurts as an arrow thrown directly to my heart and ego! :evil_lol:
But with all the huge respect you deserve my friend Justin, I have to say I disagree with you. For the last 3 years, I have been member of 5 fish forums and here at AC I was helped as good as in any other forum including CichlidForum or even a little bit better. At least that is my experience. And this forum (AC) is IMHO over the top of the other ones in this particular issue: FRIENDSHIP! That is why I post here more than in any other forum; I feel as if many of the people here were part of my family, not just friends.

[myswtsins]

Fishfiles1, I am not sure what brand they were but they are fake.

As for the 2 males discussion, different things work for different people in different tanks. I am still considering adding the second male, if it doesn't work I just take him out no biggies but at least I will know I tried. I would like to know if your sub-dominant msobo colors up though, blue, & thanks for the vote of confidence! :) With the OBs only the most dominant colors up so spectacularly so after I add the second male it won't be as beautiful anyways.

I love Cichlid-Forum.com! Their articles are the best things I ever found when doing my research but when it comes time to ask a question I always come to AC because everyone is so friendly & several people here already know the background on my tank (and it has a long history for it's short life!). If for some crazy reason I could not get an answer here I'd definitely pop over to cichlid-forum though because it is a really great site!


Back to the main topic though, I will not have use of my tub or pond anytime soon because the basement floor is being redone now (I was just told yesterday!) and it is not warm enough outside yet. So I am going to experiment with lighting and water current in the tank because I know the right side has less water flow and a smidgen less light plus when I observe them under the moonlights they are more active.

[justinf67]

Ouch!!! That hurts as an arrow thrown directly to my heart and ego! :evil_lol:
But with all the huge respect you deserve my friend Justin, I have to say I disagree with you. For the last 3 years, I have been member of 5 fish forums and here at AC I was helped as good as in any other forum including CichlidForum or even a little bit better. At least that is my experience. And this forum (AC) is IMHO over the top of the other ones in this particular issue: FRIENDSHIP! That is why I post here more than in any other forum; I feel as if many of the people here were part of my family, not just friends.

If u read my statement, I meant it as no bash. I mentioned my opinion, which is this forum has VERY friendly members, which is one of its strong suits. If anyone has noticed, I have been posting here quite a bit lately as I do enjoy this forum... I did not say there isnt any knowledgeable people here as there are quite a few. I just pointed out as I frequent both, that there is more "SPECIALIZED" cichlid people with a wealth of info. I didnt say not to post here or that one or the other is better, just to post at both as u get two sides to a story... :goldfish:

myswtsins, I never said that 2 males couldnt work. It can, but, I think odds are against it. Like u stated, try it, if it doesnt work, pull him.

also, if u are looking into different lighting, I have a great suggestion. I found the holey grail of lighting a ways back. I had tried all combos, acitinic with 10k, 6500k, etc. Most bulbs cost anywhere from 25-40 dollars... I have found that lowes sells GE Aquarays Fresh and saltwater bulbs. They are 24'' and in T-8. These are the BEST bulbs I have used BY FAR! and they are only 6-7 dollars. Buy one and try it in a T-8 housing. U will not want to go back to any other. It brings out the colors on ALL of my fish, not just a few. Yellow, Org and blue ALL pop. I have a dual 24'' t8 housing on each side of my tank and it looks amazing. I get compliments all the time. Oh, and I did research into them and they are rated at 9235k rating or something close...

[blue2fyre]

That is one thing about second males is the subdominant will not color up the way the dominant male will. Also I think it would help if both males are well matched. My male msobos are the basically the same size. One is a little larger but you can only tell when they are next to each other. They have not bred yet in my tank but I know they were breeding before I got them. I really think it's worth a try. My male do some chasing but really the tank is very peaceful.

I'm with efors on the AC is a great source of info. It seems on many other sites there are just as many people giving horrible info as there are people giving good info. Everyone has a different way of doing things. I like it here the most since the people are generally very nice and supportive.

[myswtsins]

Yeah considering he will lose all his blue sheen being the sub-dominant male anyways I am not even gonna mess with it. Besides my current male OB is so relaxed for a red zebra, I don't want to change his attitude. :D

Definitely going to check out those lights Justin, Thanks!

[justinf67]

myswtsins, all the excuse u need to start a new tank, lol... make the little guy ur centerpiece :)