Fish and PH???

[NGerdes]

How much truth is there to the comment (I've heard this a lot) "Most fish can live in almost any PH, as long as it is stable and with no swings" I know that this doesn't apply to extreme PH's, but here is why I'm asking. I'm setting up a tank and the PH was orignally 7.4, but has dropped slightly since I started the co2 in preparation for the arrival of my plants, to around 7.2-7.3. I would like to purchase some type of small (dwarf) cichlid. I'm torn between cockatoo and German Blue Rams. Anyways, the profiles both recommend PH of 6.5-7.0 for these fish, and if my PH is 7.2, would these fish be OK and happy in this water?

[OrionGirl]

They will be fine. Make sure to acclimate them slowly, since the water they come in may be significantly different. But, pH is usually more important if you're wanting the fish to breed. Eggs are not as adaptable as fish.

[NGerdes]

Thanks for the help. I honestly would almost rather they didn't breed as I'm not set up for it yet. I would definately like to some day.

But with these two species, I should still get Male/Female pairs. Not necessarily for breeding, but for behavior, correct???

[RTR]

And saying that the pH is important for breeding is still a bit misleading. It is really the TDS (total dissolved solids) which is important, but most folks don't have the equipment to test for that. Low TDS water is lacking in carbonates among other things, so has low pH. Low pH achieved by addition of buffering agents to moderate to high TDS water still will not provide the needed conditions.

[OrionGirl]

Really? Thanks for clarifying that, RTR. I thought that the pH itself had an impact on the egg.

What about in species such as killie fish, it is the pH that determines genders, or the TDS?

[NGerdes]

I'm leaning more toward the Blue Rams as I'm going. Should I get the male / femal pair?

And if I got ambitious (and rich) would I be able to have 1 pair of each? (30 gal w/ plenty of caves, hiding places)

Thanks again.... This forum has been a life saver, litterally.

[Lauren]

fish can live out of their range... most times. Just dont' get extreme with it. For instance, I recently learned that cardinal tetras don't do well in PH 8 :( time for peat.

[Tim Bo]

I'll second that, RTR :)

[RTR]

The pH is the best indicator of carbonate/bicarbonate levels in unmodified natural waters, as that is the primary natural buffer system. In processed water (municipal or aquarium with additives) that relationship is out the window. The eggs are sensitive to the mineral content and its reflection pH. You would not get good fertility (penetration of the egg by the sperm is strongly mineral ion/pH dependent) or hatch (high mineral content can actually "tan" or toughen the egg membranes) with high TDS/low pH water. The ph/carbonate-bicarbonate system should be directly related, with blackwater showing something lower for pH than the KH would indicate due to the tannins/tannic acids present.

I don't know of any work trying to differentiate pH and TDS on the pH- dependent sex ratios. But I have not speciifically looked for it either.

[NGerdes]

I'm worried about my high PH and KH and what it will do to my fish and especially live plants. I want to lower them some how. What is the easiest and least dangerous way to do this. I live in an apartment, so the whole rainwater collection would be difficult, and I've read enough to know not to use the phosphorous "PH Down" chemicals you buy at the store. What is the next best way?

Currently my tank is sitting empty, with the diy co2 running for about 2 days (probably less than that by the time it got to 'regular' pace), and I've already ordered plants off the internet and they should be arriving any day now. My last water test showed a PH of 7.3 and a KH of 16. As I've said before this is my first attempt at a planted aquarium and don't want to pay for a bunch of plants just to have them die. Any other advice is welcome. Thanks.

[shewlett]

Your pH of around 7.2 shouldn't be a problem. Is your KH high? If so, what is it reading?

I take it that the tank under discussion is 30 gallons which would make modifying water parameters via spring water that tests to your objective parameters rather expensive on an ongoing basis. If you decide to modify pH and KH via chemical means you should get a five or ten gallon bucket and experiment with that over the course of a few days, tracking your readings, to see what it takes to reach a stable desired end result. Naturally, this stable end result will be modified somewhat in a tank with live plants and live fish. Also, if the tank hasn't cycled the pH may change once it has done so.

Driftwood tends to lower pH slightly so that might be an option, how much depends on how much you use and what kind of wood it is. Peat in the filter can also lower pH. If your KH is high then trying to lower pH and keep it at a stable level is a tough task.

Keep in mind that whatever you do you will have to be able to repeat it when doing water changes. A final note: I think most fish bought from fish stores are not "wild caught" which means they and their forebears for many generations have been living in water conditions which are not necessarily the same as those of their native habitat. Natural selection will have tended to favor those individuals who best adjusted to the fish farm's water over many generations.

[NGerdes]

Your right, my PH doesn't concern me as much as my KH which is reading 16. I worrying about the effect on my plants when they arrive here in the near future. I'm more worried about that than I am the PH. I have already ordered driftwood from www.floridadriftwood.com, and that should be arriving soon. Any other suggestions on the KH situation.

[PumaWard]

I wouldn't worry about the pH too much. I could be mistaken, but I don't think kH has much direct impact on fish (maybe indirect though), gH has more to do with the fish.

Both species you are interested in will be perfectly fine in that pH (My brother has 2 pairs of rams in similiar pH). Just though that I might add that cockatoos are not molygamous species(they don't form pair bonds), they are polygamous so you would want at least a 1m/2f ratio, or one female might be constantly picked on if she's not ready to breed.

HTH

[RTR]

Aquatic plants don't mind hard water, they do quite well there.

[NGerdes]

So, just to make sure. My 7.3-7.4 PH and KH of 16 will be OK???Just want make sure because of the profiles I was reading on places like aquaticdepot and live aquaria.

Thanks for the help........:D

[RTR]

Post in the Aqutic Plants forum for Plantbrain, he will back that up - in fact he says they do better in harder water, excepting I believe three uncommon specialist's plants.

[NGerdes]

Thanks again. I'll post pics when I get it up and running.....