my clown loach needs help

[nanguz]

He has a very slight case of ick. I raised the temp and added some salt. It seems like he has built up a really thick slime coat. He seems to be having trouble breathing and he won't eat. He's about 9 years old and 10 inches long. I don't want to loose him.

[tonergirl]

Did you increase the oxygen going into the tank as well? Salt and high temps. make it harder for them to breath. Lots of added aeration. How much salt and how high is your temp? It may be fungal or bacterial as well but sometimes when you're treating them they can look way worse before they start looking better. Oh...I hope things turn around for him, he must be beautiful at that age. I wish I could be more help. :(

[terror]

Hi,

have you tested your water parameterS?It might also be he's shedding slime because of water problem? I've had bad experience wth salt and clown loaches, but i tried half dose of malachite green and my loaches before was able to recover.
hope your clown loach recovers.

[nanguz]

I did a 3rd of the tank water change a little while ago and added an air pump and stone. He seems more alert now. what happened was I bought a couple little rainbows and they had ick. I should have quarantined them but I didn't. I used malachite green for a few days and the ick cleared up but the loach ended up with it. I didn't check the parameters this time but I did recently and it was ok. The amount of salt I added at this point is not even 1 tsp per gallon. I'm afraid to use the malachite green again because I heard that it can cause the loach to make lots of slime and suffocate himself. I'm going to see if he eats bloodworms this evening. If he does I would imagine that he's getting better.

[mel_20_20]

Be sure to treat for Ich for the full length of time recommended. I would do the salt heat method for about 5 days past the last Ich speck falling off.

Ich protozoans have a life cycle, you may already know about it, but there's a really good write up on it in the sticky's above this disease forum. In fact, I'll attach it here for you.

Ich protozoans are tenacious and you really have to go long enough to kill off all of them, even when you think your fish are over it. Here's the link:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1657382&postcount=2

Lupin, one of our moderators and fish gurus here wrote this article.

ADDENDUM: Having said all that, it would really be very helpful if you could post photos of your sick Loach.

[nanguz]

Ok. I have some pictures of him and a video which I will add shortly. I am really worried about him. He's not eating and he was always a big eater. I am so afraid he's going to die.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4496844444_7089579b96_b.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4496844642_5e2c647c39_b.jpg

[nanguz]

here's a video of him. you can see how fast he's breathing
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nanguz/4496217211/?processed=1&cb=1270555006017
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4496844444_7089579b96_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4496844642_5e2c647c39_b.jpg

[tonergirl]

When I treat my tanks with salt, I use API Aquarium salt, 2tsp per gallon and dissolve it(completely) in about a gallon of tank water and add it very slowly, a little at a time, about a quarter of it every half hr to an hour, keeping an eye on how my fish are reacting. It is the salt that kills the Ich Tomont. I even add another HOB filter or power head to make it easier on the fish, as well. Make sure you do it for at least 7 days to make sure to kill all of them because they attach themselves to inanimate objects as well and when the fish rub against it, voila, a new host. I hope he's feeling better. Keep a close eye on your water parameters as well,. Good luck!!!
ps...I have 3 Clown Loaches and 2 YoYo loaches and they all do well with the salt treatment. :)

[nanguz]

Thanks. I reposted this again because I'm so worried. One person suggested that it is velvet and not ich. .

[tonergirl]

Thanks. I reposted this again because I'm so worried. One person suggested that it is velvet and not ich. .


Diagnosing fish diseases is soo frustrating!! I was just looking thru my medicine chest and I have "API General Cure" and one of the things it treats is velvet, described as golden velvety appearance or small white spots on side of fish. Gill infestation may cause labored breathing and scratching on objects in aquarium. They just might be right. Ingredients are: metronidazole and praziquantel. Sounds perfect!!!

It also treats Gill and skin flukes, Hole in the head, anchor worm and Fish lice...BONUS!

[Cerianthus]

You done well w/ CL for such long time and fish looks very plumb.

Although this could be oodinium/Ich infestation, what caught my attention was the fact that this MAY have started after you dose with MG which can definitely have caused allergic reaction displayed by your CL, mimicking oodinium infestations. Extra heavy production of slime caused by MG and extra slime collecting floating sediments which may looks like if they have Oodinium/Ich infestation..
Heay breathing can also be results of high temp/MG.

If you decide to treat, are you going to do it in Q/T?

btw, fluctuation of temp, especially suden drop can trigger infestation of Ich.

[nanguz]

I am so confused as to what to get and what to do. The qt I have isn't big enough for that fish and I'm afraid that he would become even more stressed. I don't want to kill the fish with meds tho. I worry about the dojo loach and the pleco and of course the clown.

I went to and lfs a few minutes back and got a parasite cure that doesn't contain copper or formalin. they didn't have a huge suppy of stuff. It's from mardel I thought but I can't find what it's called on the internet. I forgot the name. I'm going to go home and on the way I'm going to stop at another store and see what they have. I'm at work so I have to be quick. I dunno. .

[tonergirl]

I am so confused as to what to get and what to do. The qt I have isn't big enough for that fish and I'm afraid that he would become even more stressed. I don't want to kill the fish with meds tho. I worry about the dojo loach and the pleco and of course the clown.

I went to and lfs a few minutes back and got a parasite cure that doesn't contain copper or formalin. they didn't have a huge suppy of stuff. It's from mardel I thought but I can't find what it's called on the internet. I forgot the name. I'm going to go home and on the way I'm going to stop at another store and see what they have. I'm at work so I have to be quick. I dunno. .


My heart goes out to you, big time. You're exactly right, it is sooo confusing and frustrating and the very last thing you want to do, is cause more harm and suffering. If I were you, I would complete the treatment I started, with the salt, then do your water change(25%) and watch him closely for a few days and see if there's any improvement. If not I would find a treatment with Metronidazol/Praziquantel in it and perhaps try it. Maybe pm lupin and see if he has any suggestions. Good Luck to you...I wish I could be more helpful! :( Leeann

[Cerianthus]

I found MG to be very toxic when improperly dispensed.

Personally as I have posted many times previously, I depended on CLOUT by Aquarium Product (metronidazole) for most Ich/Oodinuim but half the dosage for CL.

Dissolve Clout tab in separate container and pour little bit at a time and remember to remove any chemical resins, carbon, etc during treatment.

Like I said, it could be neither in your case. You should be able to tell when you get home to see if it got worse or not. If memory serves, infestation of Oodinium also displayed cloudy eyes further down the road. Thus check the eyes along with other symptoms for any abnormality when you get home.

I hope this is nothing but reaction to previous med.

Good Luck!

btw, forget about copper safe by Mardel or Aquarisol by aquarium Products.
Formalin is OK as long as fish dont have any open cuts but Formaldehyde never yielded good results by itself as CLOUT did.

[mel_20_20]

I've never seen the allergic reaction that Cerianthus describes, and certainly that could be it, but when I do a close-up on the loach on that last photo I can see what looks just like a dusting of flour, tiny tiny specks of dust on him, especially on his head and face down towards his nose and mouth.

If you did use MG in the tank he's in you could run some carbon in the filter for a couple of hours to get any residue of MG out of the water column, but I would start with an anti-parasite treatment ASAP.

The medication that Tonergirl mentioned is a good one, and I called and talked to a person at Jungle Labs and they said that Jungle Labs Parasite Clear should take care of it, you just do a half dose for Loaches because they are sensitive.

Any anti-parasitic treatment may need to be done at half dose in the case of the loaches.

Cerianthus is right that your loach looks nice and fat; it's obvious you've been taking good care of him. I would respectfully suggest, however, that you seem over stocked from the looks of the video, and from what I've learned CLs need a huge tank and really need to have more of their kind to be comfortable and happy, so he may be a bit stressed in this tank.

I would strongly recommend that you get a good liquid test kit, such as the API Master so you can carefully monitor water quality. Parasitic infestations can often often be resisted or fought off by fish with healthy immune systems if you're water quality is pristine, though the new additions to the tank probably did introduce the problem.

You need to keep your parameters at: ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, and the nitrate at 20ppm or less. A lot of times, in a cycled tank, it's the nitrate that has slowly crept up to levels that are harmful.

You may be keeping the water really pure, I didin't read your original thread so someone may have asked, but how often do you usually do water changes in that tank; frequency and volume of water removed and replaced?

What water conditioner do you use? I recommmed that you get Prime by Seachem, especially will this be helpful while you're trying to treat the CL and others in your tank. Prime can help by detoxifying the ammonia, nitrite, and even helps with nitrate as well. While using the anti-parasitic you many need to hold off on water changes for a few days and so the Prime can help keep them safe while traces of ammonia or the other harmful by-products are in the tank.

ADDENDUM: Cerianthus' recommendation of Clout is good as well, it's a good product, and I'd prefer that over Copper safe, and I think it's AquaZole by Seachem that you're talking about Cerianthus. I posted regarding this in the other thread on this case.

Nangus, you need to try to stay with one thread or the other regarding this problem so you and we won't need to be going back and forth to try to keep up with your questions and the input of others.:) I'm not meaning to be critical, please know that. I know how deserately you want to save you CL, and the others.

It's in the other thread that has the best photo of your CL showing a close up of his head and the dusting on him.

[mel_20_20]

The other thread with photos and video is the most recent thread. Maybe a moderator could consolidate the two threads, I don't know if that's possible.

[Cerianthus]

I believe nanguz has done very well maintaining livestocks for many years in his/her own ways. I would not change/deviate from your way of maintaining tank for so many years what ever it may have been.
I am not a firm believer of water conditioners (for few decades) but I will leave it up to you. Stick to your routines as you have done so well for many years.

Overstock issue, I wll also leave it to each individuals as outcome all depends on their ability to maintain their water quality.

Like I said, this could be infestations due to new fish and/or improper water chagnes performed prior to this mishap (perhaps sudden drop of temp??) but also could be what I explained above.

Do not over react which usually can/does result in further implications. Think and reason before tempting anything.

[mel_20_20]

You've obviously done a good job taking care of them. Clown Loaches are very gregarious and are most happy and feel safe when they have others of their kind, it's just a fact.

The issue of water quality is always at the core of any recommendations regarding stocking and tank size, so close monitoring with a good liquid test kit is vital. Even in a cycled tank harmful compounds can slowly build up if they aren't removed by regularly scheduled water changes.

Nanguz mentioned in this or the other thread that he/she hasn't done testing on the parameters, so water quality may be a huge factor in this present case of illness.

Forgive me, Nanguz, if I'm preaching to the choir here and you do frequent water changes, but if not, the slow build up of nitrate and other dissolved organic compounds can have a negative impact on the immune systems of fish in the tank.

Regarding water conditioners, chlorine off-gasses but chloramines do not, so for this reason, as well as to help with other contaminants in municiple water systems, water conditioners are a necessary evil. Also, not everyone has the necessary reservoirs to age large volumes of water to use for water changes, though even if they did this would not address chloramines.

[nanguz]

This is what I got to treat the problem, Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid. I went to two stores and all they had was coppersafe and several formilan types. It's suppose to be less stressful for the fish according to the label I guess.

I change the water 50% every two weeks with out fail but I'm trying to get around to it every week now. There are some BIG fish in that tank and I did slack off a bit. I usually use API water conditioner. We have really nice water were I live. It comes from hemlock lake in the finger lakes.

I have two other clown loaches. I tryed putting them in the tank with Basil, the big guy a long time ago and they did not do well. I put them back in thier 37 gallon tank. They really like it in thier. Maybe some day, if I don't end up getting rid of all my tanks, I will get him a couple of pals. He is very outgoing and friendly on his own. He moves stuff around the tank, he taps on the glass with his mouth, he's the first one out in front at feeding time. (or was :( ) I checked that water parmeters in the tank a couple of months ago and the amonia was 0 the nitrates were 0 and the ph was 7.

[mel_20_20]

That sounds pretty good. On the nitrate test, and I'm mentioning this because this happened to me and to many others, regarding the two bottles you use for that test; the number 2 bottle you have to shake the bejebus out of, and I mean violently so, teeth jarringly so, for a full 60 seconds, and then once you've done that and you've added them to the vial, you do it again, violently, for a full minute and then wait for the results.

I learned the hard way that I was not shaking things up adequately. I got a totally different reading when I shook things up the way you're supposed to. This may not be an issue here, but I just thought I'd let you know about that as a possible problem with nitrate readings.

I think with the bioload you have in your tank you should probably up your water changes to at least a every week. Even better if you could do 25 to 30% twice a week. This helps remove dissolved organic compounds that are detrimental in addition to excess nitrate. If the nitrate reading has been 0 then you must have a very heavily planted tank. If it's not heavily planted then the nitrate readings may have been inaccurate.

[nanguz]

I'm sure that I didn't shake the bottle well enough. I do know that this time it was those little rainbows that had a disease because within a day or so of getting them one had a big white thing with fungus on it right on his eye and there were a couple of spots on the gold sev. I know the tank looked real crowded in the video but it really isn't. All the fish were coming over to me for food so they were all gathered into one spot.

[tonergirl]

Please keep us posted on how the new treatment works out for poor Basil. I hope he's back to his old self, very soon.

[nanguz]

I don't really think he's going to make it. he looks worse today

[nanguz]

I checked on him a little while ago and he's still hanging in there. his slime coat looks really lumpy and thick like it might some off. one time years ago he shed his slim coat and there was lovely skin under it. I hope this is what happens. this time its so much worse. It took me forever to get the tank up to 85 but I finally did. I turned the lights out because I heard the parasite don't like low light. I still haven't given up hope that he is going to make it.

[mel_20_20]

What was the name of the anti-parasitic medicine you are using? I'm sorry he's so sick. We're all pulling hard for your little big guy

[nanguz]

This. It's suppose to be better for his skin. I didn't want to give him coppersafe or formaline. that's the only two that the lfs had aside from that. I went to two stores. I had good luck with mardel stuff in the past.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0030DH0KW/ref=asc_df_B0030DH0KW1081367?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=dealt1444-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B0030DH0KW

[mel_20_20]

Do you see any signs of improvement? The product info on it says it works for Ich and Oodinium. I'm just a little concerned that this product may not have as broad a coverage in case this is one of the other parasites that can cause similar symptoms. Costia and Chillodonella are a couple of other possibilities.

Keep a watch on him, if he doesn't seem to be improving it may be necessary to get something else. I so hope he will be OK.

[Cerianthus]

This. It's suppose to be better for his skin. I didn't want to give him coppersafe or formaline. that's the only two that the lfs had aside from that. I went to two stores. I had good luck with mardel stuff in the past.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0030DH0KW/ref=asc_df_B0030DH0KW1081367?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=dealt1444-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B0030DH0KW


Would you be able to provide ingredients of this med?

[mel_20_20]

I found this on the product.



Indications and Usage for Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid

http://delivery5.digitalhealthcare.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_lx.ads/www.drugs.com/342189441/Middle/ehs/house-drugs-box/house-drugs-box.html/36333039356333313462336332366130?_RM_EMPTY_
For the treatment and control of symptoms associated with "Ick" and protozoan parasites in tetras, cichlids, livebearers, catfish and goldfish caused by ichthyopthirius multifili, Oodinium limneticum and Oodinium pillularis parasites.
DIRECTIONS

Shake well before using. It is always wise to check your water quality levels to ensure they are within their acceptable ranges before administering any water treatment. Raise aquarium water temperature to 85 degrees F. Remove carbon from filter but continue filtration. Use 1 capful (5 mL) to treat 15 gallons of aquarium water daily for the first two days of treatment. On the third day, perform a 25% water change and then repeat dosage again. On the fourth day, evaluate your fish and the symptoms of Ick. If Ick is present, repeat above treatment cycle. If Ick is not present,perform a 25% water change lower water temperature and return carbon to aquarium filter. It is suggested to increase tank aeration during treatment as water holds less oxygen for the fish at higher temperatures.

NOTE

Consult a veterinarian or fish expert for assistance in diagnosis of diseasehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/#) causing organisms and treatment options.

Precautions

For aquarium use only.




KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN



Warnings

THIS PRODUCT IS INTENDED FOR THE EXCLUSIVE USE WITH THE ORNAMENTAL ORGANISMS INDICATED AND IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH HUMANS OR FISH FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Even though this product is less staining than malachite green based products, there still remains a risk of staining decorations, plastic plants and silicone sealant in tank. If possible, remove these items from the aquarium before treatment.

ACTIVE INGREDIENTS

Gentian Violet, Capsaicin, Aloe

How is Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid Supplied


Net Contents:

2 fl. oz. (59 mL)

4 fl. oz. (118 mL)
PACKAGE LABEL PRINCIPLE DISPLAY PANEL

Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid

Distributed by:

Sergeant's Pet Care Products, Inc, Omaha, NE 68130

Made in USA

www.sentrypetcare.com (http://www.sentrypetcare.com)


http://images.ddccdn.com/pro/images/5537b017-798c-41a7-8325-7069d67273d4/21186carton.jpg

Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid
gentian violet, capsaicin, aloe liquidProduct InformationProduct TypeOTC ANIMAL DRUGNDC Product Code (Source)21091-186Route of AdministrationEXTRACORPOREALDEA Schedule Active Ingredient/Active MoietyIngredient NameBasis of StrengthStrengthGENTIAN VIOLET (GENTIAN VIOLET)GENTIAN VIOLET0.0003475 g in 1 mLCAPSAICIN (CAPSAICIN)CAPSAICIN0.0005244 g in 1 mLALOE (ALOE)ALOE0.0007011 g in 1 mLInactive IngredientsIngredient NameStrengthNo Inactive Ingredients FoundProduct CharacteristicsColor Score ShapeSizeFlavorImprint CodeContains Packaging#NDCPackage DescriptionMultilevel Packaging121091-186-021 BOTTLE In 1 PACKAGEcontains a BOTTLE, PLASTIC159 mL In 1 BOTTLE, PLASTICThis package is contained within the PACKAGE (21091-186-02)221091-186-041 BOTTLE In 1 CARTONcontains a BOTTLE, PLASTIC2118 mL In 1 BOTTLE, PLASTICThis package is contained within the CARTON (21091-186-04)
Marketing InformationMarketing CategoryApplication Number or Monograph CitationMarketing Start DateMarketing End Dateunapproved drug other05/29/2009
Labeler - Sergeant's Pet Care Products, Inc. (876995171)Revised: 01/2010Sergeant's Pet Care Products, Inc.

ACTIVE INGREDIENTS

Gentian Violet, Capsaicin, Aloe

How is Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid Supplied


Net Contents:

2 fl. oz. (59 mL)

4 fl. oz. (118 mL)

PACKAGE LABEL PRINCIPLE DISPLAY PANEL

Sentry AQ Mardel Quick Aid

Distributed by:

Sergeant's Pet Care Products, Inc, Omaha, NE 68130

Made in USA

www.sentrypetcare.com (http://www.sentrypetcare.com)

[nanguz]

He hasn't gotten worse. He may look a little better even. I went to a different store and got some aquari-sol. I hate changing meds mid way. If I were to change meds I was thinking I would do a 30% or better water change and then use the aqua sol. I really don't know what to do. he's not getting worse anymore but he's not eating. for him that's bad

[nanguz]

I went to the store and got aquari-sol. he seems slightly better but still very sick. I figure I may change like 30% of the water tommorrow morning then change to aquari-sol. I don't like doing this mid medication. If he would just eat I would know he's on the mend. He comes out and goes through the motions like he wants to but he doesn't. I also got tank buddies. I am not going to use these all at once. believe me. I just want to know which is best at this point

[nanguz]

I did it. I changed 30 % of the water and put in the aquasol. He actually seemed a little better this morning. His skin sort of looked like it had pieces of fluff hanging off. I think the stuff is starting to come off of him. His tail is still covered with specks though. I think his color looks better and the stuff is only on the top part of his body. His swimming wasn't as stiff and he was very curious when I did the water change. He was interested in eating. My husband said he saw him eat a few flakes of food but I think he was just going through the motions and not really eating. I feel more possitive today that he may recover

[Cerianthus]

Pics possible???

[nanguz]

when I got home from work he was acting very sluggish and breathing very fast. It even seemed that he chocked a few times and when he did those knife things came out of his face. I never saw him do that before. I decided that it was unfair to the other fish in the tank to subject them to the treatment so I put him in the hospital tank. Today he is resting comfortably, it seems. He doesn't seem to be breathing as hard. I will try and get a few pictures this morning.

[nanguz]

he passed away this morning. I am devasted. He looked almost better yesterday and today he was breathing his last breath and then died. :( I don't know why. He looked so good yesterday

[tonergirl]

he passed away this morning. I am devasted. He looked almost better yesterday and today he was breathing his last breath and then died. :( I don't know why. He looked so good yesterday


I'm sooo sorry for your loss!! You DID everything humanly possible to help him but I think that it was just too far advanced, by the time he was treated and he was weakened by it and succumbed to the disease. My heart is breaking for you...

[nanguz]

thanks. I feel like I should get rid of all my tanks but I have other really old fish in them that I don't know if I can. They would probably stress and die. I have 2 other clown loaches that I've had for 5 years. A cory that's 10 years old. I have a giant sev that's 9 years old. I don't know what to do but I know I can't go through this again.