Need Help with Rams..........

[snakeskinner]

I had posted this to the cichlid forum but I never seem to get much response over there so I'm copying it here....

I'm sure you're tired of Ram questions but I did do a search and came up with no results on my question so here goes. I've been tossing around rams for a while and I'm almost to the point of purchase but I have a question or two that needs answered. I have a 36 gallon 1/4 cylinder tank that is heavily planted (fake plants but going to add some live plants once the season comes around to get good plants). I have a couple caves and several decorations for hiding. I have 3 giant danio's, a gold gourami, some ottos, a couple small cories,a large pleco, a quartet of serpae tetras and 7 smaller tiger barbs (3/4" to 1"). The barbs and serpae's are not very nippy at the moment but I guess things can change in the future. I'm wanting a pair of rams and have been searching every shop in the area and finally there are some choices after bugging all the shops. I found one shop with some 1" blue's, another LFS got in 6 2" blue rams and about 10 1.5" rams and the local petsmart got in about a dozen fingernail sized blue rams (were ordered as XL rams but came in very small). The Petsmart guy said they were ordering some more for next week and should get some larger blues and golds. I'm not sure which I like better, wish they'd get along with a few but it sounds like this isn't such a good idea, or is it? I've seen several people say they have 3, 4 or 5 rams in their tanks. Have they just purchased them and don't know they're gonna be separating them later or will they actually coexist like this if they have some areas? The first place I went had the 6 large blue rams and they were all facing off in about a 15 gallon tank but no real damage was being done although several had the lower half of the tail freyed which could have been done in transport I guess. I've been doing a lot of searching the last hour or two and found out about the pink bellied females so I'm a little more confident on choosing a pair and I know finding an established pair is the best but I don't think they'll be in the shops long enough to establish a pair. If I get a pair or even a couple males, do you think they would coexist if they have plenty of areas to call home and defend? What do you think the possibility of getting a single blue and a single gold in there? Can I intermingle a male blue and a female gold? How do you tell the male/female on the golds? I guess my #1 question is do you think the rams could live with the tiger barbs. Most places say to keep them with peaceful fish and my tigers are what I would call peaceful right now but I know they could turn any time. I notice many people have rams with gourami's and bettas which also can be bullies (and usually are in my experiences). I know kribs would probably be a better choice but I just don't care for the coloration of the ones I've seen around here. The ones in most pictures have red and blue on them but the only ones I can find are brown and dark pale green, more like a leaf fish. thanks for any advice, KYle

[Tim Bo]

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=171155#post171155

[NatakuTseng]

I would only keep one pair of rams in a tank that size. Once a pair becomes established they don't like to share, and will beat on the other rams in the tank. I'd stay away from the petsmart rams, they are most likely asian bred and a weaker strain. As to the compatibility question, try it, but you may have problems. The ones I can see are the Gourami and Barbs, and possibly the dainios. THe problem there is that those fish are quite boisterous and may cause the rams to shy away.But give it a try and see how it goes, Make sure you get a male and female other wise your going to have problems. Thats my opinion on things, I currently keep 2 pairs of rams in seperate tanks and have tried to keep both in a 40gal Breeder without luck.

[snakeskinner]

thanks for the replies but tim bo, I can't open that first link with the bolivians. I did however find a website and found some photos of bolivians. They appear to be lighter and more yellow/pink. natakuTseng, I have to agree on the petsmart. I went back today to look at them again and they all had died yesterday. I can tell the guy working there is less than enthused about the ones they are receiving. I went to the other LFS with more info on sexing them but I can't find any pink on the blue's. I looked to see if there are any pink blotches on the golds as well but don't see much there also. They don't keep their fish very well lit so I couldn't see them all that clear but I happened to have a pocket flashlight and tried to get a reflection of pink but no luck. Do the gold females have the same pink blotch? If I can't for sure buy a pair, will a lone male do ok or will he be too lonely? thanks again, KYle

[snakeskinner]

I finally got through on the phone to a LFS that had some rams last week for very cheap and she is out of them at the moment but is going to be ordering some more freshwater next week. I asked her about Bolivians and she said she's putting them on the order so I guess we'll see. Kyle

[fishdude]

i have 2 rams in a 29 tank i love em

[Tim Bo]

ah, here's the correct link :
http://images.google.nl/images?hl=nl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=altispinosa

[NatakuTseng]

Snake there are a couple other traits that rams carry that can help you identify males and females, the males will have a couple extended dorsal rays, usually the 2nd and 3rd ones, they will be about twice the length of the others. Also females generally have blue speckles in the black dot on their sides, where as males just have a clean black dot.

Fish Dude, I know where that avatar came from! lol I got my rams from him.

[fishdude]

hans put this pic up and i didnt have a pic of my rams so............

[NatakuTseng]

Yeah thats a picture off of SouthernApistos.com that Mike Jacobs took. I strongly reccomend him if your looking for dwarf cichlids. He imports from Peru and the Czech Republic.

[snakeskinner]

I looked for the blue speckles in the black dot but no luck due to the lighting, some didn't even really have a black dot, more of a light stain. I can't seem to find the extended dorsal rays. Even in photos they don't seem to be that different to me. I guess I'm just dorsal blind or something. I'll see if I can get them to "crank up the lighting" when I go back. maybe I can see them better. Either way, all the blues at this one store seem to hover in their own space and occasionally drift towards another ram like a bull facing off with a mirror. There is also one that stays behind the pump tube, don't want that one for sure. As for the gold rams, they seem a little more tolerant of eachother. There are probably 12-15 of them in the tank and they probably allow a 3" buffer around themselves and as long as they're not face to face they seem ok. I'm almost tempted to just get a pair of golds and see if they can find their own corners in my tank. Everyone says there is no difference in aggressiveness between the blues and the golds but I can't help but think there is between these two tanks. I spoke with my regular LFS and they are going to try and get me some rams next week. Another store is getting blue's and bolivian rams next Friday if the order goes through and the local Petsmart is supposed to have another batch of blues and golds on Thursday although I am very leary about them since 100% of their last batch of about 20 died. I think they may have asian rams but it won't hurt to look. The guy at this store I go to breeds fish at home and seems very knowledgable about them and he seems to be pretty honest. He has told me and other customers to get certain products elsewhere from time to time which tells me he's not out to make a sale. thanks for the help guys, KYle

[fishdude]

give me 1 day and i will take a pic of my matcho male and then ill post another one of one of my females wth the speckles and every thing

[snakeskinner]

man, your days must be long there :) I went to the LFS I prefer to use and they were unable to round up any rams. He said maybe a few weeks. I stopped back by the other LFS that had the blues and the golds and they'd sold out of blues but had several golds left. I finally caught the owner and she said all of hers were males and she was unable to get any females from her supplier. She thinks that they send all males to certain areas and all females to others to try and keep anyone else from breeding them. Sounds about right. I watched the golds for a while and decided I will probably be allright with a pair of males in my tank. These rams were in about a 15 gallon tank with just a couple small decorations and were all swimming within 3-4" of eachother without many quarrels and mine is a heavily planted 36 gallon 1/4 cylinder with several caves and such so I got a single gold now and am going to wait for a good blue or bolivian somewhere else. I contacted another LFS a week ago and they had blues and bolivians on order so I'm calling them Friday or Saturday to see if they came in. If worse comes to worse, I will put my divider in my 55 gallon and put one in there till I can get another tank. Kyle