Green Tank

[jdsolo]

I've had my tank for about a year and a half now. I have had cronic problems with green water. I'm not changing 4 gallons (out of 20) twice a week.

I'm pretreating my replacement water to reduce the pH. The tap is around 8.0. I'm using a 7.0 pH buffer. This has stabled the tank pH, but not eliminated the green color.

The frequent water changes help, but has not eliminated it.

Several months ago, I reduced the light from 10 hours a day to around 4. Temp is around 76 F.

I've got a bubler and external filter. I've been using a filter aid to try and help get the smaller particles out.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

John

[DEmigh]

Check the ingredients on your pH buffer. It may very well include phosphate. If it does, then all your water changes have been like trying to fight a fire by throwing gasoline on it :argh :rolleyes:

I've had the same fight. The good news was, it never did seem to bother the fish.

Here's an idea:

Make sure you're using a non-phosphate buffer, do a HUGE water change (like 80%), and leave the lights off completely for a few days.

Good luck!

[jdsolo]

I checked the buffer. It did not list the ingredients, but did say it was a phosphate buffer. I'll try a different one.

One of the best success I had was going on vacation for 10 days and leaving the lights off. Came home and the tank was as clear as it had been in awhile.

I had two other ideas after reading through forums.

First is on the siphon and gravel cleaning. I don't stick the siphon to the bottom of the gravel, just kind of skim the top. I'll try a "deeper" cleaning.

Second is the filter housing. I have the kind that hangs on the back of the tank. I have never cleaned the inside out in the 19 months I have had it. Just changed the filter on a monthly basis. I saw that others clean their's out weekly. I'll give that a try also.

Thanks for the phosphate suggestion.

John

[avoxo]

Hi jdsolo, you could try aging the water. Add an airstone to a bucket full of water and let it sit over night. It might lower the ph.

[jdsolo]

I normally let fill tap water into gallon milk jugs. Add a small amount of pH 7.0 buffer, tap water conditioner. Then I let them sit with the tops off for a few days before they get put into the tank.

When I just let the water sit without adding an buffer, the pH is off the scale near 8.0.

John

[JSchmidt]

Many of the neutral buffers contain phosphates, a wonderful food source for algae! You can deep clean if you want, you can change water if you want, but if the new water going into the tank contains phosphates, no amount of cleaning will make a difference.

Proper pH is one of the notorious pH regulators that contains phosphates.

I think I'd rather deal with the pH of 8.0 than green water...

If you could let us know what the product is, we can probably help. Also, what kind of fish you keep, and what the pH of your tap water is... after it has sat out all night.

Good luck,
Jim

[avoxo]

Where I am from they add "quick lime" to the water systems to raise the ph to over 8.8 to prevent rusting in the pipes. In the past I too would use ph buffer to lower my ph and it caused me a lot of problems with algae. Now all I do is fill my bucket and add an airstone over night and it lowers my ph from over 8.8 to 7.8.

I would experiment by just adding an airstone to the milk jug with out adding any of the ph buffer and see if it changes the ph. Let it sit out over night and see if it helps lower the ph.

[jdsolo]

Jim,

Proper pH is what I was using. Not anymore.

Will a pH of 8.0 be bad for the fish? Seems high.

pH is 8.0 after sitting out for the night. I have 4 zebra danios, 5 neon tetras, and a few guppies.

Avoxo,

How does the airstone work? I guess I would need one for each gallon jug? Is this just the piece that goes on the end of an air pump into the tank? If so, I would need a second air pump to run this.

John

[DEmigh]

SeaChem makes two products for moving pH toward neutral: Neutral Buffer, and Neutral Regulator. One contains phosphate, the other does not. I think it's Neutral Regulator that's phosphate free, but (presuming you choose to go with (or can even find) SeaChem's products) check the label to be sure.

[jdsolo]

I did a couple of things tonight, based on some input from all the great folks here.

FILTER:
Took the filter (Top Fin) off and completely cleaned it. I used hot water and paper towels. Got the intake tube really clean as well. It is reinstalled and water is gushing out. It must have only been operating at around 50% capacity.

GRAVEL CLEANER:
I took the advice of pushing the gravel cleaner all the way to the bottom of the gravel when making a water change tonight. I had previously avoided this because it sucked up to many rocks and stopped the water flow. Well, I got my technique better now. Push down all the way, once the rocks and dirt come up, back off a little and get just the dirt while the rocks fall back down. And boy did I get dirt. It was in between black and dark green. I got half the gravel cleaned (20 gallon tank) with a 5 gallon water change. I'll do the other half tomorrow.

WATER CONDITIONS:
I check my tank water before making my 25% change tonight.
Tank had nitrite of 0, ammonia of 0, and pH of 7.0. I also checked my tap water. Nitrite 0, ammonia 0, and pH between 8.4 and 8.8.

I refilled my gallon jugs. I'll check the pH of these in the morning and see if it dropped any.

Thanks again to everyone for their input. I'll keep you posted as to my progress over the next couple of days and weeks.

But I'm still open to any input anyone has based on what I've done tonight and written about above.

John

[jdsolo]

David,

Thanks for the SeaChem reference. I checked out their web page and found Acid Buffer, which is specifically listed as phosphate free. Found a local store from their website. Called them up and they have it in stock. I'll pick some of tomorrow.

John

[JSchmidt]

Adding acid to lower pH isn't as simple as it sounds. If your water has any buffering (usually represented as KH or carbonate hardness), the acid will initially lower pH. Then, it will be absorbed/neutralized by the carbonates and as that happens, pH will bounce back up. You will then have to add more acid, lowering pH until the carbonates neutralize it and pH rebounds. This will continue until you've exhausted the buffering, at which point your water will be extremely prone to even wilder pH swings, especially downward in the presence of acids.

As soon as you do a partial water change, you'll replenish the buffer and pH will jump. You then will have to do the whole thing over. The yoyo-ing pH is not good for the fish, needless to say.

Many people successfully keep neon tetras and zebra danios in water with a pH of 8. One of the credos around here is that stability if pH is more important than its absolute value (within limits, of course).

Lowering pH is much more difficult than adding a chemical to the water. If you really are concerned about having low pH water, get a reverse osmosis unit. This strips almost all the hardness from the water and allows you to reconstitute it however you want. Not cheap, and probably not necessary.

I bet your LFS keeps those neons in water pretty similar to your tap water...

Good luck,
Jim

[jdsolo]

Jim,

That all makes sense. I do have hardness which will act as a buffer. I'm not opposed to just using my tap water and letting the pH be where ever it is. It would make my life easier with water changes.

Will the chemistry of the tank bring the level down from the 8.4 out of my tap? I guess I can give this a try for awhile without the pH reducing chemicals and see what happens.

John

[avoxo]

I believe this is how it works, water out of a tap has no gases in it, buy adding the airstone it will make the air in the room that has carbon dioxide go through the water which in turn it will lower the ph. Mine only lowers it to 7.8, which is fine by me.

Listen to JS what he says is true.

I used the neutral regulator by Seachem’s for almost 10 years the stuff works great but it does contain phosphates. The buffers that they provide do not lower the ph just increase unless they have phosphates in them. They are designed to maintain the ph by use of the adding KH to the tank. Adding chemicals to the tank always has some sort of repercussion.

You do need to find what the KH (carbonate hardiness) is. The reason for that is when a tank is cycled it will use up some of the KH in the water. If yours is low it will make your ph lower. You never had this problem because you always used proper ph stuff. The reason I know this is because it happened to me.

[jdsolo]

Avoxo,

My hardness (both kh and gh) are usually in the 150 - 200 ppm range.

How long do you run the airstone in the water to reduce the pH? Overnight or just a few hours. I've got 5 one gallon jugs that I use, so I would have to rotate the stone or get several and a manifold, along with a new air pump.

John

[Uncle Bete]

just a thought.....

You can get 1, 5 gal. bucket fairly cheap at home improvement type centers. ( 1 bucket, 1 airstone)

I put around 4 gals. in mine. That will weigh around 40 lbs. Something to consider too. If the weight is a problem, you could get (also) a 1 gal. bucket and be able to pour the 5 gal. into it so you only need to lift the 1 gal. at a time.

[avoxo]

What I am asking is that you use 1 of the gallon jugs, let the airstone blow bubble for at least 12 hours and then check the ph. It is only an experiment. If it does lower the ph then go spend the money on a pail or a bucket. Then you won't have to buy or use any buffers or regulators.

I have 3 tanks and I use a 22 gallon tote with a 3 gallon pail to empty the water into the tanks after it has been aged over night.

[JSchmidt]

If you just want to check the pH after aging, just put some in a bowl and let it sit out overnight. That will allow enough gas exchange to find the water's true pH. Alternatively, you could fill one of your gallon jugs 3/4 of the way and aerate them vigorously for a couple of hours. That would accomplish the same thing.

If you have KH in the 150-200 ppm range, attempts to modify pH through the addition of acids or neutral buffers are going to be futile.

The best thing would be to check pH and KH in an aerated sample of tap water. Then we can go from there.

HTH,
Jim

[jdsolo]

Jim,

I put in some SeaChem Acid Buffer yesterday and today. That was the phosphate free variety. Changed 5 gal yesterday and 5 today (tank is 20 gal). So far, water is clearer and pH is around 7.0.

John