Hello, I'm a newbie with a major fish problem

[Beyer63]

I have been a tropical fresh water fish owner for about 10 years. This is a problem, which I never had.Below is in detail of the tank and what has happened in the last week.
I have an established tank of 2+ years, 16-gallon tank. I know my tank is somewhat overcrowded with many platies (around 15-20) because they love to multiply, 1 betta, 4 tetras, 2 catfishes and 3 algae fish (I have an algae problem). Had the platies, tetras and catfish for a year or more. New to tank since the beginning of April: Betta, 2 tetras and 2 algae fish. One of tetras died a week and half ago and could not find him.

4/11- Did the usual 25% water change with new ammo rocks that come in a bag that I put in the tank (always have done this).
4/13 – Noticed all my platies were lying low to the ground and shimmying. Some were rubbing themselves on ornaments. They only became active during feeding times. Rest of the fish were fine.
4/15 – Fish were still inactive but no casualties. Tested for Ammonia, Nitrate and PH
Ammonia and Nitrates were high and PH a 7. Did another water change and this time cleaned a Cascade filter. However when putting back the filter in the tank it did not work and this went on for a ½ hour. Time was running out and around 8:30 pm drove to a pet store and picked up a Penguin 150 Bio wheel filter, which was recommended.

4/17- Had the water tested at the same pet store and the Ammonia and Phosphate levels were at their highest. Was told to get Cycle and some Phos-zorb to fit in the filter to lower the phosphates, which I did. Also did another water change
.
4/19/ Noticed white patches and tail rot on some of the platies and they were still lying low but no casualties. Added some Stress Coat and Cycle.

4/20- Ammonia level was around 4 and Phosphate level around 5. White patches were increasing. Found skeletal remains in the tank. Went to same pet store and was told to get Pimafix and Ammo lock. Took out the filter cartridge and phosphate bag and used the correct dosage for Pimafix and two hours later lost 2 platies. Called another pet store and explained my problem to get another opinion. I had the water tested there and the levels were still high. I was told that since I have a new filter (Bio wheel) the good bacteria is no longer in the tank. I was given filter sponges that have established bacteria and also was told to keep using Cycle. I did not use the Ammo Lock because I was given a booster (can’t remember the name) to break up the ammonia and nitrates and I didn’t want to overdue it on the treatments. I was also told not do any water changes for a week. Is that right??

4/21 – Lost 5 more platies and one tetra became infected. Ammonia level was around 4 and a few of the platies were at gasping at the top. Became desperate and did a 25% water change and put in a new air stone for more aeration (I always have two air stones going). Added Stress coat and Cycle.

4/22- Lost three more fish. Tested water again. Comparing the charts, Ammonia looked to be from 1-2, Phosphates 5, Nitrates – 20 and now my PH is 6.4

Whenever I do a water change I add Genesis and a PH 7 neutralizer. I have always done this for 2 years. This has been the worst problem I have had in a long time. I have not used the Ammo Lock yet because of all the treatments I was doing in the last few days to bring the ammonia level down. Can anyone tell what would be the best procedure to bring the ammonia levels down and still save the rest of the fish and an opinion of what may have suddenly caused this, so I don’t make the same mistake?

[Rbishop]

Welcome to AC! I moved your thread over to the FW Illness section, so more folks will see it.

Just some genera thoughts...

Are you using a good liquid test kit?

The recent addition of fish to an already high loaded tank may be part of the reason for the ammonia.

What is your normal water change schedule?

Does your tap water have ammonia? Tap pH on a sample left out over night in a shallow dish?

Can you better identify the "catfish", "tetras", and "algae fish" you have?

Personally, I would stop all the additives, Phos-zorb, Cycle, ammo-rocks, Stress Coat, Genisis and the pH adjustment.

Get a bottle of Prime water conditioner and start doing frequent 50% water changes and overdose the Prime. Even if it is 2 or 3 a day, to keep that ammonia and nitrite levels below .25 ppm. The first couple should include deep gravel/substrate cleaning also.

[Ratlova30]

Not sure what's going on with your fish but I'd put all the fish that look sick to a separate tank. As far as your filter that stopped working, the propeller is probably stuck(happens to me on occasion). Dump all the water out of the filter and try and loosen the propeller with a pen or something, if you can't get the propeller to turn sometimes you have to give the filter a couple of good hard thumps on a table to shake it loose. One of biowheel filters recently stopped working, propeller just needed to be knocked loose. Hope your fish get better.

[Ara]

HI there!

Sorry to hear you are having all the trouble!

I second Rbishop - I think the problem may have been primarily due to too faar many fish in the tank (IMHO, I would say over double-stocked, but this does really depend on the type of angae eaters & catfish..). If the fish were stressed, their immune systems were lowered and bacteria intervened. Sound like some of the fish were having troubles breathing too, also a sign off too much tank load.. .

I would also stop with all the chemicals, use Prime, and start doing 50% water changes. You should see an immediate reduction in your Ammonia and Nitrate levels, and over the course of a couple days, this will improve.

I had a similiar issue when I added 4 more danios to my 20g (still had faaaaar less fish per gallon, only about 15 inches) but my ammonia and nitrates/nitrites spiked.. 3 days of 50% + Prime fixed it. I always try to steer clear of any chemicals other than prime if I can..

I would have said take out some fish, but it sounds like you lost.. what.. 10 or so? I`m so sorry to hear. :(

I would suggest not adding any more, whith what is left, you are still what I would consider to be overstocked ....so just keep an eye on the filtration and be dilligent with weekly 20% water changes.

Good luck! I really hope everyone else gets healthy!!!

[Beyer63]

Thank you for moving me over to the correct forum. I realized my mistake after wards.
I lost four more platies this morning. I am using API test kits. I tested again and Ammonia reading looks to be from 1-2, Nitrate 20, Phosphate 5 and PH 6.4 which was a 7 a couple of days ago. I tested the tap water which is well water and the Ammonia and Phosphate were fine, readings were around 0 ppm. The catfish are a Cory and a Wildcat. Algae fish are Chinese Algae (2) new and an Orange algae, have for several months. The tetras are Painted tetras and Neon tetras.

I usually do a partial water change once a week. Here's my question:
When I do the water changes I use a bucket just for the tank and add the Genisis and PH neutralizer before I add the water to the tank. I have done this for the longest time. Would I do the same with the Prime water conditioner? And would the brand be Seachem? By overdosing on the Prime, would I do that in the bucket or just add it into the tank?

Also, I still have the sponges that were given to me with the established bacteria in my filter. Should I leave them in there? Thank you for replying back to me.

[tyler79durdan]

Ok, welcome.

I should start with... IMO(in my opinion), I would use Tetra brand Aquasafe water conditioner.

I would never add a pH neutralizer or any other pH buffer(up/down[API]). I would start today with a purchase of several medium size live plants. With that bio-load the N from ammonium uptake from these plants will help stabilize the environment.

I would put a few ml of Aquasafe in one bucket, and fill... BTW Aquasafe has slime coat promoter in it! so +1 on that.

I would have a second bucket with fresh, established tank water(water change water), the I would take those sponges and rinse/squeeze them in this water. I would do this for most of my filter media(not all though, like 65-70%) to start.

While I had my tank down, I would thoroughly check for deceased. I would also vacuum my most of my substrate.

This is an emergency situation and I would start thinking about how long have I gone between W/C and maintenance before this happened. How many fish did I have before the newest additions. This stocking was most likely maxed out, if not close to it. Maybe I would think about
1. removing some fauna.
or
2. Upgrading my filtration system to a larger water volume capacity.
think wet/dry sump, or real big canister. You can keep heavy stock, but at the cost of remote water columns. I have a 75 gallon tank, and with lines and sumps, and canister, I have well over a 90 gallon system.

So to sum it up...
1. vacuum gravel into a bucket. Use this water to rinse my sponges and other media(not all).
2. Add 3-4 med to large plants(i.e. low light, floaters/even rooted)
Plants have been proven to remove large amounts of Ammonia and Nitrates, within hours(3-4)
3. Take a good look at my system. A HOB is not gonna have the media volume of a canister.
4. Start using Tetra Aquasafe, and dont play with my pH in my tap water. This is a fight you dont want to engage in. Fish will acclimate to you pH over time.

I would bet my system that if I did this, I would prolly solve my issue.

-Aaron

[Ara]

I lost four more platies this morning. .

Sad, sorry to hear! I hope the water conditions stabilize soon for them!



The catfish are a Cory and a Wildcat. Algae fish are Chinese Algae (2) new and an Orange algae, have for several months. The tetras are Painted tetras and Neon tetras..

I would be a little concerned aobut the Chinese Algae eaters, they commonly can grow to be 4.5 inches, which would be much to large for your small tank.. but if they are still small then they may be okay although, IMHO, you may need to find a new home for them if they get any bigger than 2 inches..




When I do the water changes I use a bucket just for the tank and add the Genisis and PH neutralizer before I add the water to the tank. I have done this for the longest time. Would I do the same with the Prime water conditioner? And would the brand be Seachem? By overdosing on the Prime, would I do that in the bucket or just add it into the tank?.

Yes, add the Prime to the bucket before you put the water in the tank, it can take a minute or 2 for the Prime (or any water conditioner) to do it's job.



Also, I still have the sponges that were given to me with the established bacteria in my filter. Should I leave them in there? Thank you for replying back to me.

Yep, I would think you should not mess with the sponges too much right now, especially if you are doing some big water changes to correct the water parametres. Don't want to mess too much with the benefical bacterias!

All just my humble oppinion as these methods worked for me.. but I hope you don't end up with any more deaths!


Good luck!

[Beyer63]

Thanks. Haven another question. One or two of the surviving fish still have white patches on them. My guess is that the poor water quality caused a bacterial or fungal infection. Do I need to do anything about that after I do a 50% water change or just wait until the ammonia, nitrate and phosphate levels are suitable?

[snoopy65]

I would wait to treat with anything. You would be amazed at what very clean water can do. If after a few days it hasn't gone away, then you could look at treating it. Take some pictures of them if you can and one of the disease people will chime in.

[Ara]

:iagree:

Treating the infection could wreak more havoc with the water parametres, which are most important right now. If after few days of good water conditions, they are a still sick, then it can be dealt with. May also to help to slightly raise the water temp (what is your current water temp btw?). Only go with a 1-2 degree per day, but I know that increased water temp (up to 80-82 degrees) often deals with an ich outbreak, so may be helpful for other infections (kind of like sweating it out).

[tyler79durdan]

IME we tend to see disease and illness with fluctuating water parameters(i.e.pH), and/or with an unstable or unbalanced water column.

Think... regularity... same tap, same water(sort of).

No need to treat for this outbreak yet. Focus on your water quality, and stability first.

If you can get a hold of your system, you should start seeing improvement in 24-48 hours - if they all dont die off. If they do... I would really try to focus on consistency.

-Aaron

[Beyer63]

Thanks. That's what I thought. My platies are dropping like flies and lost one neon tetra. The temp is 80 although I have my heater set at 76

[tyler79durdan]

My water is always 80. Nothing wrong with that... Its just the one-sided battle with pH adjusting. pH will always win.