Dwarf gourami disease identification - help!

[miss jess]

hi all,
i need some help IDing disease on my male and female dwarf gouramis. here's my tank info:

165litre/43g 3ft tank, 20" high
set up since january, gouramis added late feb
filtered with fluval 205 with fortnightly water changes
moderately planted

other inhabitants:
6 pristella tetra
4 zebra danio
3 juvenile indian glass fish

PH stable at 7.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 2ppm
GH 5
KH 3
(tested with liquid api kits)
heated to 26 degrees C
fish fed once a day with a variety of flake/granule and occasional frozen bloodworm/brine shrimp/daphnia

3 weeks ago i drained the tank to 50% and added one bag of ADA aquasoil underneath the gravel, as well as some laterite. i then planted heaps of plants. while this was being done (2 hours) i placed the dwarf gourami (DG) pair in a 21litre quarantine tank but left the other fish in.

a couple of days after the rescape i noticed the male DG had a small hole in the second 'spike' of his dorsal fin, so i started adding myxazin by waterlife at the rate of 10ml per day for 5 days. the hole got worse so at day 4 of the treatment i started adding 15ml of melafix daily as well. the fin erroded a little more but stopped and hasn't got worse. the melafix was added for 7 days.

after stopping the myxazin and melafix, i did a 50litre water change. then i noticed the male DG's lips started swelling up. they got large and very light pink in colour. a dark pink lump developed on the bottom lip. i started adding pimafix, 15ml daily. i'm on day 4 of treatment and part of his top lip has started to errode, here's some photos:

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/67285211.jpg/
http://img245.imageshack.us/i/15464958.jpg/

he is still acting normally and eating normally.
the female DG has normal lips, but below her lips (where her chin would be if she had one) there is a 1cm red rash/patch underneath the skin. no swelling. last night i also noticed she's developed a small 'hole' on one side. i couldn't get a photo of her as she's often hiding. her abdomen is a little swollen, i think with eggs as opposed to being illnesss.

these DGs were in fantastic condition when i bought them (from a reliable aquarium) and for the first 6 weeks. they were the healthiest DGs i'd ever seen. it's also worth mentioning that i have had 2 zebra danios die in the last month - no obvious signs of illness on one, a red tinge on the belly of the other. i also had two 5cm peppermint bristlenose die about a month ago, again no obvious sign of illness. all the remaining fish in the tank (bar the DGs) are looking and acting healthy. i've had the danios and the pristellas for many years with no problems.

i have no idea what's going on and feel like a fish killer :( after 9 years of fish keeping this is the first problem i've had with fish dying. can anyone shed some light on what's happening and suggest what i can do for my gouramis?

[Ryan2]

I think it is some Gourami disease. My dwarfs and honey gourami died suddenly with a huge hole in their sides. I read not to buy gouramies because of it.

[miss jess]

come on, doesn't anyone have any ideas? i've even included 2 photos! please have a look and let me know if you have any idea what's going on

[Cerianthus]

At least still eating which is good sign.

I would avoid mixing any meds, specially ones made by different mfr unless specifically recommended. Personally Mela and Pima dont have space on my shelf.

Looking at the pic, I notice erosion of left upper lips. Is this correct? If so, has erosion continued?

Updated Pics?

[miss jess]

At least still eating which is good sign.

I would avoid mixing any meds, specially ones made by different mfr unless specifically recommended. Personally Mela and Pima dont have space on my shelf.

Looking at the pic, I notice erosion of left upper lips. Is this correct? If so, has erosion continued?

Updated Pics?

he's still eating, she's not. she doesn't come out of hiding at all anymore, i fear she'll be dead soon.

the erosion hasn't continued and he hasn't gotten any worse since the photo was taken. he's still acting normally. i'm about to do another 50litre water change and i think i'll continue with the pimafix as it seems to have stopped the wounds getting worse (which is all i ever expected it to do).

i've spoken to the makers of melafix and pimafix before and they can be mixed. they work on different kinds of bacteria (one gram negative, one positive). but agree that other meds shouldn't be mixed.

[miss jess]

female gourami now has major pop eye, but only in one eye. the 'rash' under her chin is worse.

can anyone help?

[miss jess]

PLEASE CAN'T ANYONE HELP?
i actually read the 'read before posting' topic and answered every question and provided photos. someone has to know what's wrong with my gouramis. every morning i go to the tank expecting to see them dead, as well as when i come home from work, yet they're still battling on. i really want to save them.

the male's lips have eroded further, so much so that he has very little of his lips left. he is spending most of his time near the surface of the water, above the filter intake where the current would be weakest. he's still eating.

female still has normal lips but still has the red and broken skin under her mouth, severe pop eye in one eye and a small wound on her side. she's not eating.

the only other thing i've noticed is in the last couple days they've both had thin, translucent poo. could this be from internal parasites? tonight i mashed up some garlic, soaked their flakes in it and then fed them - the male ate some.

two of my indian glass fish are acting a little ill now too. the remaining danios seem fine.

PLEASE help :( :(

[Cerianthus]

How big is your tank?

pH of tap water?

[fabiobruno]

Hi miss jess,

I'm not very experienced but I had some problem with my Dwarfs in the past, the female died but the male survived to what I thought was DGD. I used "Anti Internal Bacteria" from Interpet because I couldn't get hold of proper antibiotics here in UK (if I would have used Maracin II), however I must tell you that I never saw something like your pictures in the cases of DGD I saw on the net.

I also noticed a few times small holes in the dorsal fin of my gourami but usually it goes away in a couple of days... could it be a reaction to myxazin or melafix or primafix?
I would stop adding medications, add a water pump, perform 30% water change every 2 days, make sure the filter is doing a good job (clean it and possibly change both policarbon filters in your fluval with new one, one day at a time).

Or you could use your quarantine tank... could it be a reaction to the fertiliser?

Good luck, and keep us informed.
Cheers
Fabio

[miss jess]

How big is your tank?

pH of tap water?

165 litres/43 gallons as stated in my original post.
tap water ph is 8, my tank is 7.4 because i have lots of driftwood, use indian almond leaves and aquasoil, sometimes top up the tank with demineralised water and it's moderately planted


Hi miss jess,

I'm not very experienced but I had some problem with my Dwarfs in the past, the female died but the male survived to what I thought was DGD. I used "Anti Internal Bacteria" from Interpet because I couldn't get hold of proper antibiotics here in UK (if I would have used Maracin II), however I must tell you that I never saw something like your pictures in the cases of DGD I saw on the net.

it's also hard to get proper antibiotics in australia, i actually don't know where to find any. i've never seen antibiotic food either :(


I also noticed a few times small holes in the dorsal fin of my gourami but usually it goes away in a couple of days... could it be a reaction to myxazin or melafix or primafix? the hole in his dorsal fin started before i started adding medications.


I would stop adding medications, add a water pump, perform 30% water change every 2 days, make sure the filter is doing a good job (clean it and possibly change both policarbon filters in your fluval with new one, one day at a time).what do you mean by a 'water pump'? as well as the fluval 205 i also have a HOB filter running that's rated for 60litres. i replace the sponges regularly (i get everything cheap!) and the fluval is packed full of seachem matrix and when i'm not using meds, purigen.

i'll bump up my water changes and see if it makes a difference.


Or you could use your quarantine tank... could it be a reaction to the fertiliser?i wondered about the fertiliser. i stopped using liquid fertiliser 3 weeks ago but maybe the damage was already done. i've been holding off on using my quarantine tank as it's only 21 litres.


Good luck, and keep us informed.
Cheers
Fabiothank you so much for your reply, i appreciate that you took the time to help me

[NegativeLogic]

I had a somewhat similar health issue with my dwarf gouramis that I succesfully treated with a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn II. I understand that antibiotics are hard to come by for this purpose in Australia - but would a vet possibly prescribe them? Not sure how it works exactly, but it's just a thought.

I have also installed a UV sterilizer in the tank they are in to be on the safe side, and haven't had any problems since (plus it makes the water crystal clear). It increases the water's redox potential which can help the fish fight off infection themselves.

If you can't medicate, I'd step up the water changes to daily, as that can help them to fight off the infection.

Oh, and for the Pimafix and Melafix, I can't remember which of the two it is, but I remember reading about people having bad experiences with one of them and labyrinth fish. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's worth considering. It's also worth considering that a lot of people think Pimafix and Melafix are either snake oil, or at best, the "chicken soup and/or orange juice" of fish medicine.

[miss jess]

just had to put an almost-dead indian glass fish in the freezer. he was flipping around in the current. strange thing is, i couldn't see any signs of disease after studying his body.

the female dwarf gourami is almost dead, she's sitting vertically in a plant. i'll get her out soon and use some clove oil to anesthetise her before putting her in the freezer :(

[miss jess]

I had a somewhat similar health issue with my dwarf gouramis that I succesfully treated with a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn II. I understand that antibiotics are hard to come by for this purpose in Australia - but would a vet possibly prescribe them? Not sure how it works exactly, but it's just a thought.

i think the vet who treats my rats also treats fish. i think it's too late for my fish now, but next time something like this happens i will check if she can prescribe fish meds.


I have also installed a UV sterilizer in the tank they are in to be on the safe side, and haven't had any problems since (plus it makes the water crystal clear). It increases the water's redox potential which can help the fish fight off infection themselves.

i was saving up for a python gravel vac, but i think i will put the money towards a uv sterilizer now. i can get one quite cheaply thankfully.


If you can't medicate, I'd step up the water changes to daily, as that can help them to fight off the infection.

Oh, and for the Pimafix and Melafix, I can't remember which of the two it is, but I remember reading about people having bad experiences with one of them and labyrinth fish. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's worth considering. It's also worth considering that a lot of people think Pimafix and Melafix are either snake oil, or at best, the "chicken soup and/or orange juice" of fish medicine.

i know pimafix and melafix aren't great but there's not a whole lot else we have access to in australia. i usually only use it as a preventative or for very minor problems (which this was at the start).

thank you for your help!

[fabiobruno]

About fertilizers I was referring to the aquasoil you added before all this started.
Maybe the poison that is killing your fish is under your gravel.

The air pump is also known as air stone, it is a a pump used to increase the agitation, and so the aeration of the water in the tank. A lot of people suggesting increasing aeration when fish are sick.

Can you get the Interpet "Anti Internal Bacteria" in Australia? That worked for me.

Good luck again, keep us posted.
Fabio

[miss jess]

About fertilizers I was referring to the aquasoil you added before all this started.
Maybe the poison that is killing your fish is under your gravel.

it's definitely possible. i've never heard of aquasoil causing these kind of problems in fish though


The air pump is also known as air stone, it is a a pump used to increase the agitation, and so the aeration of the water in the tank. A lot of people suggesting increasing aeration when fish are sick.

ahh okay. i've already got a 20cm bubble wall. the canister output is also at the surface of the water, agitating it, and i've got a HOB doing some agitation too.


Can you get the Interpet "Anti Internal Bacteria" in Australia? That worked for me.

Good luck again, keep us posted.
Fabio

nah can't get it unfortunately :(

female gourami died last night. male gourami has no top lip left whatsoever yet is still eating!

[miss jess]

i've got some jungle brand 'tank buddies' fungus clear that says it also treats bacterial problems. should i use them? active ingredients are nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate

[miss jess]

mr gourami was on his side gasping near the surface. he got the clove oil and vodka treatment and is in the freezer :(

with using clove oil - does it actually work? because it's an oil it just sits on the surface of the water, it doesn't disperse.

i'll be interested to see if the danios and pristellas stick around, as well as the two remaining indian glass fish.

[miss jess]

after reading this article
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388mycoarticle.pdf
i am now positive that my dwarf gouramis (and other fish) died of mycobacteriosis (fish tuberculosis), hence why none of the meds worked. near the start of the saga a very knowledgeable friend of mine suggested fish tb but i wasn't sure. turns out that he was right.

i'll now be purchasing a UV sterilizer before i add any more fish