Which ammonia for cycling???

[snakeskinner]

hello all, I finally decided to set up a quarantine/hospital tank with a new 10 gallon. I decided to also try the ammonia cycling method and went on a search for ammonia without additives which is a lot easier said than done. My wife picked up some "clear ammonia" but later found there was a short ingredient list that had softened water, ammonia and "chelating agent" so I went out looking for more. I found one list on the internet state how the no-name brands were usually the best. After about 6 stores with most carrying citrus brands, I found some at a grocery store that is "always save" brand and just says "Ammonia, all purpose cleaner" on the label and no other contents listed anywhere. I started the cycling on Friday and just found another method for cycling that mentioned shaking the bottle and looking for foam. Sure enough, my bottle foams. We had not returned the first bottle yet and I shook it up, no foam. The other brand is a wal-mart brand, Great Value and says "Clear Ammonia, all purpose cleaner". Which would you use? does anyone know what Chelating agent is and if it is bad for fish? How can I determine if anything's in the other ammonia I've been adding and if it is bad? How can I clean it out if need be? thanks for any help or advice. Kyle

[JSchmidt]

Usually if it says "clear ammonia" it's OK. Chelating agents won't hurt anything, either. Mostly, you want to avoid anything that has detergents and/or perfumes.

HTH,
JIm

[CHINABOY1021]

Is the brand of your ammonia Amex?

[snakeskinner]

no, the one brand is "always save" and the other is "great value". Always save is distributed by a wholesale company out of kansas City and great value is a wal-mart brand. I plan to call the wholesaler for always save and see if they can give me the ingredients for the additives I've been putting in my tank. then I'll find out if they are lethal or what. I did notice a small amount of foam around where the bubbles from my stone come to the surface but they disappear close to that and don't spread over the cover of the tank. I just thought it may be a characteristic of the ammonia in the tank. Also, my other tanks have a slight bubbling "foam" around where the air hits the surface anyhow. I guess I'll just start using the other ammonia with the chelating agent in it until I figure out if the other stuff is bad or not. then I'll figure out what I have to do to remove it. I have a media bag full of ceramic cylinders, a plastic decoration with built-in fake plant (easy to remove and clean) and a bubble stone in the tank, that's about it besides the heater and the filter itself. I guess if worse comes to worse, I can tear the tank apart and try to disenfect it somehow and then start all over. I've only lost 3 days so far. thanks, Kyle

[snakeskinner]

well, I got ahold of the company who distributes the ammonia I'm using and she says her sheet shows it to have no additives. I told her about the foaming and she says they have another product that has an additive to keep it from foaming but this one shows no additives so now I'm wondering. Does the "foam" trick only apply to ammonias that actually have additives to keep them from foaming and pure ammonia will actually foam? why didn't I just go to college for chemistry so I wouldn't have to ask these questions. Not only can I not get guaranteed pure ammonia, I can't get bio-spira. I guess I'm just gonna have to go back to dumping fish in fresh water and hope they survive. Kyle

[JSchmidt]

This 'foaming' thing is easy to resolve, I think. My clear ammonia, when shaken, shows bubbles for just a few moments and then they break down. Ammonia with detergent will foam and hold its bubbles for several minutes.

HTH,
Jim

[snakeskinner]

well, mine foams and stays foamy for several minutes. The bottle that lists additives however, does not foam at all. I'm wondering if this additive is an anti-foaming agent but why would it need an anti-foaming agent if ammonia doesn't foam? arrrgh, I'm so confused. Maybe I should just forget water and add a lizard :) thanks, Kyle

[FastFish]

Just a note, chelating agents as additives are not a good thing, they will remove dissolved salts unless the quantities are minisicule... which they probably are, so my point is moot.

[JSchmidt]

Many water conditioners for aquaria contain chelators... they are not a problem for aquaria use. From the Skeptical Aquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/conditioners.shtml ): The ingredient that "removes dangerous heavy metals" would likely be chelating them to an organic molecule or a polymer.

Chelating agents by themselves are not a problem.

If you really can't find clear ammonia, the saltwater folks have been tossing cocktail shrimp into their tanks for years. As the shrimp decompose, they produce ammonia and the cycle begins. Naturally, a test kit for ammonia and nitrite would be especially helpful, for it's a bit harder to control ammonia concentration thru rotting shrimp than by adding clear ammonia in measured doses. (Rotting shrimp, I daresay, are infinitely better than fishy cycling, with gill burns from ammonia, etc....)

You can even use urine! People urine! Before you flame me, or declare this 'gross', check out this page at the Skeptical Aquarist:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/startover/fishless.shtml . I'm not advocating this, just suggesting it's possible...

Where is WetmanNY when we need him?

HTH,
Jim

[Grassguy]

Yeah, I've heard about the urine thing too. A guy at the LFS here said he had a friend up north that does that.

BTW he tried to get me to forget the fishless cycle and by some zebra danios from him to cycle with...wonder why?

[snakeskinner]

some good news, I just got a phone call from a guy who is at the actual ammonia plant but after talking with him about where I purchased it, he determined it was not from his plant because of my location but was getting ahold of the wholesaler. He said another plant probably made this stuff and that the wholesaler would contact them and route through them. I'm very pleased they're taking the time to investigate this for me. I know I'm just a nobody that bought one bottle and most places would have dismissed my questions and let it go but they seem to be interested in helping me out. I talked with this guy about their product and he said theirs has no additives and he had shaken a bottle and it only bubbled like water, no foam. Mine foams so it's definitely a different composition. Hopefully whatever's in that ammonia isn't toxic to fish and/or easy to remove from the tank. Kyle

[JSchmidt]

Grassguy, the reaction of your LFS guy to fishless cycling is not uncommon. The crass implication is that they'd prefer you to buy fish from them, rather than ammonia from WalMart, but I suspect it's more about sticking with what's familiar.

Jim

[Grassguy]

Oh, the salesman knows about it, and has used it; but the store just came under new management and they don't advocate it. I even heard them tell him that he shouldn't have talked to me about it even though I brought it up (they thought I had left, but I came back in for somethin i forgot). Needless to say, I don't shop there anymore. This is also the place I got a plant that put snails into my tank.

[snakeskinner]

ok, a salesperson from the plant that actually makes the bottle I have just called me. He said that all ammonia has suffractants in it but that it's less than 1/2%. He said they make 3 types of ammonia; clear, foaming and citrus and that they have to have one of those 3 listed and that clear was what I wanted. I had my wife look, no designation of clear or foaming. I'm going to use the "clear" ammonia I bought from wal-mart that lists the additive but doesn't foam. I think maybe this stuff I have is foaming ammonia and just not labeled correctly. He was sure of himself in saying that no one produces ammonia without any additives. He said the additives are what helps it clean and without that, the ammonia wouldn't work for it's intended purpose. Who knows what's correct though. Kyle

[JSchmidt]

I think you're making the right choice in using the clear stuff from WalMart, esp. if it doesn't foam.

Good luck!

Jim

[RTR]

The guy who told you that ammonia does not clean without additives sounds like he used to work in the LFS. Sheesh! What a load of horsefeathers. I'll bet he thinks the fragrances help too.