Help, Ill Syno

[DrgRcr]

I just picked up a group of 6 wild caught multipunctatus and have them in a 20g qt tank. They've been in there a day and a half, and one guy is looking terrible, and I'm suspect of one other. Water params are good at pH 8, ammonia 0 and nitrite 0. I just did a 50% WC and added 2 jungle labs parasite clear tabs and a small bit of epsom salt. Thoughts? here is a pic. I'm so bummed right now.

[cellodaisy]

Ouch! Poor little guy. Do you think it could be injury, rather than illness?

[Cerianthus]

agreed. tattered fins and tail.

i dont recall major quarrels b/n themselves to cause such wound but again never kept 6 in 20G..

Do you have any kanamycin avail? If not, bacitracin ointment?

Can you isolate it w/in 20 G Q/T by using large clear jar (carbon jar but punch many holes for circulation). Punch good amount of holes 2/3 way around the jar. 1/3 without the holes will be the bottom.
Lay the jar down on the side with some gravel to hold the jar down. Punch one hole on the lid and stick air line tubing thru hole . Attach small coarse air stone inside the jar. As bubbles leave thru some holes, water will circulate thru jar.

It may heal itself or it could develop further complications.
Being wild cats, I would medicate ASAP .

This couldve been due to shipping as well. Pretty Common actually, Looks great when arrived but develops problems within days.

Keep us posted.

[DrgRcr]

OK, so I'm told that this could be from agression, and the tank being too small. I'd thought for a short QT period they'd be OK, but apparently not. I see at least 2 with torn tail fins. What really concerns me is the red line going down his side. I'm thinking of taking the healthy ones and putting them into the main tank and see if things clear up. I've been told that others have put wild caughts from Atlantis into their main tanks with no issues.

[Cerianthus]

If you dont have other options, I dont see why not. I wouldve have new wild ones q/t bit longer though since the move into main will be under the assumption this is result of aggression, not an infection.

Good Luck!

[MYname]

ooooooh something got him good
i recomend you do small waterchanges every hour or 2 to keep him in verry clean water
also up the temp just a bit
keep him in verry clean warm water and he shuld heal a little bit faster
isolating him is a good idea craming him in a small jar is a less good idea if he gets stressed out he probably wont heal well

[DrgRcr]

Well I was going to move them, and initially I did move 1, but when moving the second healthy looking one, I saw a single white spot and thought it may be the start of ich. So they are all together again because I just can't chance infecting a healthy tank. I dosed a little more Metronidazole a little while ago. I've read alot about it and some people have even dosed twice a day and it says it's relatively safe right on the label.

[Cerianthus]

Metro is effective agents but not really dafe for scaleless fish. It shouldve said right on the box.

I did not have any probelms with regular full dosage on Syn. cats nor on clown loaches but dont know about full dosage twice a day.

I know you mean well but please dont jump to action. Reason before action.

[DrgRcr]

Thanks Cerianthus. I really want to save these guys. Right now I'm beside myself and second guessing my decision to get wild caughts. But I guess if I can weather them through this, it'll give me a little more knowledge than I had before. I will dose daily with many water changes and see what happens.

[toddnbecka]

If you're worried about Ich just dose the tank with salt and relax. It can't do any harm, and would actually be beneficial to the injured fish. The one in the pic has had the snot beat out of it by one or more of the others. Small tank, little or no cover, nowhere to get away from the aggressor.

[DrgRcr]

Thanks Todd. It's stunning to me that all this may have been caused by aggression. I always try to read about things before I get them, but I had no idea of the possible aggressiveness of them. The problem now is that I have no where else to put them, so I'm going to try and add some more pvc hiding spots. I am also going to do another water change today and then add some salt over the course of the day.

[toddnbecka]

I added 3 adults to my original group of 4 a couple years ago. One of them died along the way, presumably from old age, and 2 of them had to be moved out (actually swapped off for some peacocks) because they were always looking ragged around the fins. They do have teeth, and can use them quite effectively on the other Syno's. I've seen a couple with raw patches before they were moved, but they always healed up w/out any problems and you'd never know they had been injured.
If you've ever seen them in the wild (Nat Geo, discovery channel, etc.) they travel in large schools. Demasoni and Tropheus are similar; kept in large enough numbers the aggression doesn't do as much damage to any single fish. If you don't have room for or want to keep a dozen multi's, you have to work around their individual tolerances.

[DrgRcr]

Well I'm hoping these guys heal up because it looks like two of them have been through a war. I can't believe how fast this happened, literally within hours of getting them. I added some more pvc tubes for hiding spots and some aquarium salt to help with the healing. That along with another water change this morning. My fingers are crossed.

[Cerianthus]

Syn cats are tough cookies. They should pulled thru provided no drastic actions are taken..

Keeping fingers crossed.

[DrgRcr]

Thanks Cerianthus. I've been able to separate the two who were beat up with a DIY separator that I had on hand for fry tanks. One good sign is that they are both still eating, quite enthusiastically too. Tonight I'm off to Lowes to work on soem DIY sponge filters. I have an empty 55g that I could have used in an emergency like this, but I had no extra seeded filters I could have used on it without sacrificing another tank. The DIYers will go in the running tanks and be at the ready if needed from this point on.

[Cerianthus]

Sponge Filters are so cheap. Why DIY?

Besides if tank is fill and filtered or just with an airstone, it will cycle without doing anything to tank.
It may not have amount of BB as if one cycled with fish/Ammonia, but it will be bio active.

If you are to use 55 as Q/T, Why not filled it up and age the water as reserve for pwc until need to utilize 55G as Q/T.

When need to use reserve as Q/T or as Hospital, swap bucket of water at a time b/n main & reserve tank. After good work out(lol!), water b/n main and reserve should be very similar. then move the fish

Once Q/T is well served and all habitant transferred to main, you can heat up the Q/T water for few days beofore dumping. To sterlize the 55G, I would just use salt water to sterilize rather than bleach (unnecessary pollutants to environment). You can even use rainwater + salt to sterilize 55G. Free!!! If have room in backyard in the shade, set up vat with lid and diy contraption to fill and drain (control valves, etc).

Want to grow best live fish food, trays with couple of dried leaves will be perfect breeding ground for insect larvae.

I am surprise that not too many people use rainwater, especially in the regions with high pH/very hard tap water. Its free and probably better than tap! EXCEPT if one lives in/near industrial area then I would not trust rain.

Anyway, Sponge filter at lfs should not cost more than $10.00, may be couple of dollars more. Tetra Brilliant SPonge filter (I think this was the name) was about $8.00 about 7-8 yrs ago. Replacement about $5.00. Depending how wepp maintained, sponge will last long time. You will probably need strong air pump to drive SF in 55G.

Good Luck!

btw, Only draw back of 55 as Hospital Tank, cost of med will be way too high. You can filled 15G worth or 20G worth, etc. etc., depending on amt of fish to be treated.

[msjinkzd]

i use 55's as qt frequently for large groups of fish. I use sponge filters (I like the hydro pro series, which are inexpensive at www.kensfish.com (http://www.kensfish.com)). One thing to consider with sponge filtration in a hospital tank, you cannot effectively add carbon if needed to remove meds after treatment. Because of this, I have taken to using sponge filter in one side, corner filter in the other. This allows me a flexibility of media for my isolation tanks and they both use the same blown air. (Plus they are like $4 a piece, super cheap if not the easiest filters to use).

When medicating a 55, I typically drop the water level (increasing aeration) which also reduces the total volume and is therefore less expensive to medicate but with the same footprint/surface area for oxygen exchange.

[DrgRcr]

Cerianthus, I'm not sure what you mean by letting the tank sit filled and that it will be bio active without any source of beneficial bacteria. I certainly wouldn't want to chance that when adding six 3" wild caught fish. That's why I want to build the sponge filters and run one or two in my other fry/juvie growout tanks for when the time arises. To DIY several sponge filters is actually quite cheap, and when all is said and done, probably half the price. And that doesn't include any shipping charges from the cheaper online suppliers like Ken's. The LFS's around here charge $10-12 + tax for them depending on size. I can build 5 or 6 for a total cost of about $30 or even a little less. As far as aging water, I really don't need to do this because I have well water that stays very stable.

Msjinkzed, I understand what you're saying about the removal of meds. What I'd like to do is keep 2 or 3 extra sponges running all the time(I have a diaphragm air pump from Jehmco). Then when the need arises, I can drop one or two in the 55. After treatment, etc., I can remove them and rinse them in hot water and let them dry for a couple of weeks. I've read up on this a bit and it seems to be a popular way of rotating seeded filters and rendering any leftover meds and/or disease harmless. I could also soak in bleach and water and then dechlor if needed. Hopefully it won't come to this again for a while. If I did have to use the 55, it would have to be on the floor because I have a small rack and recently just swapped the 55 for a 33 long because of height issues. But I have visions in the future of a larger rack in another room.:hypnotized:

As an update, the two injured fish are still separated and holding their own. They still don't look their Sunday best, but they ate very energetically yesterday, and last night after lights out they were more than happy to be out swimming around with each other. The four that seem healthy are doing fine on the other side of the wall. If they stay that way after 3 weeks or so, I will add them to the main tank and let the other 2 recover longer.

Thank you for the help and suggestions!

[msjinkzd]

I run alot of larger canisters (fx5, xp3, c360). I keep the extra sponges in the top layer of my canister filter. Whenever I need to set up a new tank (or get a new import) I take out a seasoned sponge, slip it onto the base and voila, seeded tank. I then take one that has been used/dried out/bleached/dishwashed and put it into the canister. I have about 3 spares goign at all times. Works out well for me and is not "unsightly" in the tank.

[DrgRcr]

Yeah I do that also jinkzd, but with some small pieces of sponge for the smaller AC filters. I have one extra sponge for one of my sponge filters that I'm going to stick in one of the cans. And I DIY'd 2 more sponge filters today, with enough material to do 2-3 more. I just need to come up with a heavier base, my initial design wanted to float a bit.