Cycling with Plants???

[NGerdes]

I'm setting up my new planted aquarium. I just added the plants yesterday afternoon. Still no fish in there. But before the plants, I had 0 ammonia. Now my readings are 4 ppm when I just tested a couple of minutes ago. Could the ammonia be from some parts of the plants breaking off and decaying in the water from the planting process? And will this actually cycle my tank if so? Thanks.

[NGerdes]

Update. I turned my filtler on last night, emperor 280 w/ bio wheel. I hadn't turned it on before because the tank was still dusty from the planting and didn't want to clog it. Anyways, the Ammonia is still reading around 3-4ppm. Nitrites are at 0ppm. I haven't tested the nitrAtes. Any advice on this? Right now I'm treating the tank as if it is cycling. Since there are no fish in there right now, I'm going to hold off a little on the water changes, but will be doing one within the next day or two.

[Kagh't]

organic matter decaying (i.e. your plants) is where the ammonia is coming from, so you were correct in assuming that.
the readings are still high because the tank has yet to be colonised by beneficial bacteria, so you'll have to wait for them to get set up before you'll see nitrites and nitrates.

i would advise against water changes at this stage, as you'll be denying the bacteria their foodsource, and the tank will fail to cycle properly.

[NGerdes]

That's what I was thinking when I decided to hold off on the water changes. With the live plants in there (it's pretty well stocked) will they start to consume the ammonia, nitrtItes, nitrates before the benificial bacteria begin to conlinize? This is the first time I've done a "fishless" cycle (which this basically is), how long should I expect it to take for the ammonia to start to convert to NitrItes?

Thanks!

[TKOS]

It seems awful fast for that level of ammonia to build up without dosing pure ammonia.

Are you adding something to the water you are putting in the tank? Sometimes test kits read ammonium as ammonia or else sometimes chloramine can be split up giving small amounts of ammonia.

[NGerdes]

I haven't added any form of ammonia to the tank that I know of. I have dosed regularly with Flourish Trace (2/week) Excel (every other day) and Iron (2/week). I also added about 4 fertilizer tabs to the water near the newly planted 'root' plants. My test kit is a cheap kit, and very easily could be mis-reading something.

[RTR]

Check the label of the fertilizer tabs to see if the nitrogen component is from urea. This sort of thing happens when folks use Jobes' spikes and don't bury them deeply in the gravel. The urea hydrolyses to ammonia.

[Captain Hook]

RTR I was planning on using some Jobes' for Lush Palms tabs either today or tomorrow. Should I bury them as deep as possible, like on the very bottom of the tank?

[djlen]

Hook guy....if you must use them, bury them as deeply as possible. And try to keep track of them so that you don't disturb them until they spend themselves.

Len

[promethean_sprk]

I bust them up into 3 pellets and shove one under each sword or cluster of stem plants. You want the plant to suck up the nutrients before they can leech into the water, so less is better. You also want them to be used up within a month so that you aren't left with algae boosting land mines in your substrate.

If you've got another tank, move water from that tank into the new one, or better yet, add used filter media from the cycled tank to the new one.

[Captain Hook]

Len you make it sound like I shouldn't use them. "If you must". I have heard good things about these sticks, stories from people who have used them for years. The price is excellent too.

[NGerdes]

The tabs are Flurish Tabs by Seachem. The label just says Nitrogen, it doesn't say anything about urea. If it is the tabs, what should I do? And obviously I shouldn't put fish in yet, but will this ammonia or whatever, cycle? Will good bacteria be produced and cycle it?

[RTR]

I use Jobes routinely and have no issues, but I also have deep substrates and don't leave them anywhere near the surface. On the other hand, if I need green water, a bare tank, a piece of Jobes, a bit of current and light and my daphnia or whatever are in business.

Flourish tabs have only trivial/trace amounts of nitrogen, that is not the cause.

It does not take a very sophisticated kit to read ammonia. The only error cause that is likely is if the kit is Nessler's Reagent based, and your water require the use of Amquel or such conditioner - then the ammonia kit would be giving you no valid info. Do you add one, or more, reagents to the water in the test?

[NGerdes]

The only thing that I have added to the water was the plants and fertilizers I mentioned above. Nothing else has gone in. And because I knew that the tank was going to sit empty for at least a week before I put in my plants, I didn't use a water conditioner of anykind.

Test this morning looks to be reading 3-4ppm. Hard to tell with the yellow colors so similar, but it's not hard to tell that it's in there!!!

[Canuck]

Probably not the source, but what did you use for a substrate?

[plantbrain]

Rather than the issue of cycling or not............

The question should be why are the plants not sucking up the NH4(ammonium)?

Did you put 1/2 dead plants in there?
Not turn the light on?
Not add enough nutrients for the plants?

I've never had any NH4 measurements with good kits on any tank I've set up.

Plants are effective at removing the NH4 and the NO3 end
product of nitrification.

If you have high NH4 reading and you have not added any fish/food, jobe sticks etc, then something is very wrong with your plants.

They are rotting, not growing.
If not, then the test kit is the error.

In any event:
Do 60% water change
Add some KNO3(stump remover)
Double check your dosing/testing

Plant tanks don't go through a cycling event like a normal fish only tank. You are growing plants, not bacteria in these tanks, they are very effective at NH4/NO3 removal. Better than bacteria generally if the plants are happy and provided with good conditions to grow.

Also, you need to put as many plants as you can in there from the start, then thin out the ones you want etc later or keep it fully planted.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[promethean_sprk]

From my understanding NH4 only forms from NH3 when in an acidic environment - ie spare H ions to go from H3 to H4. If the PH is above 7 in this tank, NH4 will not form and the NH3 can't be used by the plants.

This seems to be the #1 reason to have a ph below 7 in planted tanks, and why planted tanks can get by without filters in some cases. The nitrogen cycle isn't needed when the ammonia gets converted into ammonium and directly used by the plants.

I got that info from a discus site, and it was more to emphasize that discus never see ammonia in their natural habitat because it's acidic, but added the part about plants as slight digression. It makes sense, but could be wrong. Discus people have kind of a 'the disc is the center of the universe' viewpoint. :D

[djlen]

I just don't like Jobe Spikes. Many people use them and I guess they work well for them, but I've just heard too many horror stories from those that either didn't bury them deeply enough or in the course of moving plants, uncovered them and disaster ensued.
Also, I don't believe they are necessary. There are many 'root tab' sources out there that make their product just for aquariums.
They seem to work as well and I haven't gotten the negative feedback on them that I've heard on the Jobes Spikes.
I've always had good results, even with 'root feeders', without using substrate fertilization so I kind of cringe every time someone mentions using them.

Just my opinion....

Len

[NGerdes]

Sorry for the late reply. I'll try to answer some of the questions. Here are some of the specs on my tank:

29 Gal
(Tests are from early yesterday morning, will test again after work today and repost to this thread)
PH ~7.4-7.5
KH ~16
Ammonia ~3-4ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate: Not yet tested

Substrate: 1 inch of Flourite / 2 inch Black Onyx Sand on top

Plants ordered online from Aquatic plant depot:
1 Marble Vallisneria
1 Amazon
1 Rubin Sword
6 Dwarf Chain Tennellus
2 Red Temple
2 Moneywort
1 Ruffle Sword
1 Anacharis
2 Cabomba

Some of the Cobomba, Temples and Chain Tennellus are showing some signs of decay as of this morning. I'm at work now, but am planning on some trimming, cleaning, testing and water changing tonight. The Amazon, Moneywort, Rubin, and anacharis are all doing well, with 0 signs of decay. They looked a little dropping from the shipping, but after a having the light on over night, the next morning they where standing up, stretching for the light.

Fertilizers:
Dosing with Flourish Excel every other day / Flourish Iron and Flourish trace twice a week so far (not sure of the amounts right now, I just know I use what the back of the bottle says. I think 1ml/gal for the Excel, I can't remember the others). Have 4 Fourish tabs in the substrate near the amazon, the Rubin, the ruffle and the Chains. They are burried at least 1 inch deep if not deeper.

Also have a small DIY CO2 injection, which is probably not completely sufficient, but that is the reason for the Excel dosing.

Light:
Have ~ 2.4 w/gal with bright stick plant lights purchased from Menards (Home Depot equivilant in the Midwest for some who might not know). Lights are on a timer running about 13 hours per day (9AM - 10PM).

So far, have not had any type of Algea growth or anything from the high ammonia readings.

Obviously, no fish yet...

[NGerdes]

I went through the tank last night and trimmed off any dead looking leaves, and even threw away a few plants completely. I did everything short of removed some of the plants, worked them over (trimming) and replanting them. Tried my best to get all of the cuttings out of the tank, but some got away and I could grabe them out. Anyways, I tested the water this morning, and here is what I got:

Ammonia: Down to .5-1.0 ppm (at least I think, the yellows are too close)
Nitrite: 0
PH: 7.4
KH: 14


Hopefully the dropping ammonia means the trimming last night worked and the plants are starting to consume it from the water...

[plantbrain]

"From my understanding NH4 only forms from NH3 when in an acidic environment - ie spare H ions to go from H3 to H4. If the PH is above 7 in this tank, NH4 will not form and the NH3 can't be used by the plants."

NH3 can be used easily by plants extenerally, they add protons, H+'s, and acidify NH3=>NH4+.

Here's the relative ratio of NH4+:NH3 based on pH and temp dependence:

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

"This seems to be the #1 reason to have a ph below 7 in planted tanks, and why planted tanks can get by without filters in some cases. The nitrogen cycle isn't needed when the ammonia gets converted into ammonium and directly used by the plants."

This makes no difference to the plants in an aquarium, I'd argue that a high pH will produce more growth since at equal CO2 levels, the higher pH water would have more HCO3, thus more carbon which is most often the limiting nutrient in aquatic systems.

An example of pH differences on the under side(abaxial side) of a Hydrillia leaf may have a pH of 4 and the top(adaxial side) may have a pH of 10.
That's a huge difference and if the water has any KH/HCO3, it will all turn into CO2 at a pH of 4, so some plants have little issue with pH and CO2.

Now consider this in context of NH4/pH/Temp.
Plants are not static, they actively change things to suit their needs.

"I got that info from a discus site, and it was more to emphasize that discus never see ammonia in their natural habitat because it's acidic, but added the part about plants as slight digression. It makes sense, but could be wrong. Discus people have kind of a 'the disc is the center of the universe' viewpoint. "

You cannot trust anyone that places "bait" above the basis of the entire food chain:)

We are plantically correct, they like gaudy dinner plate fish:) How can you trust them?:-)
Yes, they are nutty, but keep the dogma in place.

Healthy plants = healthy fish.
It works, and it works with Discus too.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[NGerdes]

No offense plantbrain, but you where talking a little above my level on the chemistry there. Are you saying that because my PH is high, the ammonia is not turning to ammonium and therefore that plants can't use it? Or that they should be able to use it?

I think the decaying plant thing is right, the Red Temple are decaying again after my trimming, and the moneywort is showing signs as well, just not as bad. I'm probably going to remove the bunches temples completely, and replace them with some hardier plants, like java fern and a crypt w. The moneywort looks like it could possibly still make it though, it's not nearly as bad.

[plantbrain]

Sorry for the tangent,
But at a pH of 7.4 if you look at the table is fine for plants, they have no trouble using NH3/NH4+, they can alter the species of nitrogen for uptake is my point here.

I'd not worry about that.
Discus folks might wig about it, but they are thinking about nitrifying bacteria, not plants.

I'd also say that fry are very sensitive to NH4/NH3 and when you feed as much food as possible in bare bottom tanks etc, you need to keep the water clean so it ends up being a lot of work, but worth it for Discus hobbyist that breed etc.

But if you want to have nice pets, breed a little etc, planted tanks are super.

This is a minor issue for us(NH4/NH3 species toxicity and pH/temp).

Your plants will melt back to some degree initially.
Do a large water change, dose the nutrients back afterwards.

Get some KNO3(Stump remover) and Fleet enema(source of PO4) also. Dose these after the water changes.

Using Excel and CO2 is good for now although the CO2 gas is going to be a better long term solution.

You are adding light, a source of CO2/carbon for the plants, the Traces, all you have left are K+, NO3 and PO4.

Other than this, all you need to do is have patience and keep up on the routine.
You have given the plants everything they need to grow well.

KNO3/Fleet enema are cheap(5$ for 2-3 year's supply) and easy to add. 1 drop 2x a week of the Fleet and 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x aweek.

You will want to add about 2x the Trace additions also when you add the KNO3/PO4.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[NGerdes]

Well, I'm sure that my tank is cycling now. I tested this morning, and the Ammonia is 0, but now the nitrIte is spiking and reading 4-5ppm. The red temples are doing worse and I'm going to remove almost all of them, in about an hour I'm making a trip to the LFS to pick up some java fern and crypt. I figure a few hardier additions will help with the tank initially. And possible add some of the more difficult plants later. Sound good? Will also be picking up some potasium and phosphate fertilizers like suggested.

Thanks for your help. Any further suggestions would be great...

[promethean_sprk]

They like stable water conditions. Bouncing tank parameters might cause them to melt, they'll probably come back but it's better to wait. I'd just sit tight until nitrite levels drop.

The java fern would probably be fine.

[NGerdes]

Well, I'm reconsidering now. I just went to take the red temples out of the tank, and though they dropped a lot of leaves and showed signs of decay, when I looked at them, they are starting to sprout shoots toward the substrate. So they should recover. The more I look at it, I think the plants where "traumatized" from the shipment and planting. I think they will end up fine. I hope anyways. I'm still going to get the fertilzers, and maybe the java fern for my driftwood. Thanks everyone...