Changing 75 gallon over to Reef:Questions

[felixpaws]

So, I posted another thread about starting up a 29 gallon nano-reef, but couldn't get the okay from my dad. Now, he said yes to switching my 75 gallon freshwater community tank(angels, a discus, asorted other fish) to a reef tank. I have a 4 bulb T5HO fixture(with digital timer, and individual reflectors), and a 2 bulb T5HO fixture over the tank. I, also, have a 5 stage canister filter, an emporer 400 filter, a marineland submersible heater, glass lids, a blue/black background, and two 250? penguin powerheads, with pre-filter sponges on them. Right now, there is eco-complete planted tank substrate on the bottom, plastic plants, and three big pieces of driftwood, as decoration. I've ordered 3, 40lb. bags of crushed coral, and 2, 40lb. bags of 1mm to 2mm aragonite, for the plenum. Also, I've ordered two protein skimmers rated for 75 gallons each(The 160 gallon rated one was out of stock, but I figure these will fit better, anyway.)I ordered a refractometer, and 2, 200 gallon mix boxes of reef crystals, some kalkwasser, and 3 actinic bulbs, and 3, 1200K bulbs, to replace the plant bulbs I have in there, now. Now(Whew!), my question: Is it possible to have a reef tank, with soft corals, (mushrooms, leathers, zoanthids, etc.), without RO/DI, and with the equipment that I have, now? I'll be honest, the protein skimmers, UV sterilizer, and lights are from Aquatraders.com, and the canister filter is Jebo, off of Ebay. I plan to buy 45lbs. of premium, and 45lbs. of standard live rock from Liveaquaria.com. I, sort of, planned to buy a couple of 1050 evolution koralia's, after I buy the live rock, after I save up a little. I've had salt tanks, before, but back when undergravel filters were still popular, no skimmer, and shop lights(I think they were T8's but can't be sure). I've read a ton of material, online, magazines, books, pamphlets, and feel confident that I know enough to get by, but still need tons of advice. Before I spend thousands of dollars on live stock, and countless headaches, is it even possible? I've been in the hobby for over 20 years, but mostly freshwater. Please, please, please tell me it can be done. :confused: There's no way for RO/DI, my lfs doesn't sell water, distilled water is out of the question. I use well water, and it's hard, and alkaline, PH is high.
Thanks.

[fsn77]

Without knowing much more about your well, it would only be a guess as to whether or not you'll be able to keep corals and/or invertebrates alive. Each well is different, and the quality of the water in a well can fluctuate quite a bit. There's the potential for there to be plenty of things in a well that could limit your success, many of which there are no hobby level test kits for.

It's not stated why RO/DI is not possible, but the hobby style units are very affordable and easy to maintain. It's likely the 2 protein skimmers that were purchased cost more than a RO/DI unit would have, and if it came down to having a protein skimmer or a RO/DI unit, the RO/DI unit wins out easily IMO. There's a good number of tanks that do not use a protein skimmer at all, which is made possible by frequent water changes using a quality water source.

[mes1234]

What I would do is buy a RO/DI or just purely a RO unit off of craigslist. I guarantee tons of people will sell in your area. I use a RO unit, no DI, and my reef looks great now. RO removed like 80% of the bad stuff out of the water which the DI would have removed 100%. But like I said, my tank is doing great and the fish look great. I honestly would just go buy a used RO/DI unit off craigslist for $100 and have it there at your side. Maybe do a trade on craigslist, one of your skimmers for a RO unit.

[felixpaws]

Great suggestions, unfortunately the reason I can't use an RO/DI unit, because my father won't allow it. He barely gave me permission to set up the tank, in the first place. We live in a desert, and the waste water is an issue. I've heard all the alternatives for using the waste, but it's a no go. Our area has issues with Nitrates(hence, the plenum. Don't know if it will help, but it's worth a shot.) We have a lot of septic tanks around here, and farming. The water is fairly clean, but, like I wrote, hard, alkaline, high PH(8.6Ph, last time I checked). I begged, for like, a year, before he gave in. I'm afraid RO/DI is out of the question. Are my water conditions too full of minerals for a reef? Besides the water, how is the set up looking? Do I need more light, more powerheads, to alter the filtration(in other words, remove the canister/HOB filter/plenum or alter them somehow?), less live rock, more live rock or any other suggestions? I haven't done salt in a while(7 or 8 years ago), and could use any advice you might want to give. I figured, if I used Kalkwasser it would aid in skimming, and take out a lot of Phosphates in the process. Double the skimmer size, 6 T5HO bulbs over the tank(I plan to buy another 4 bulb unit, at a later date, to replace the two bulb), do a ten gallon water change weekly, lots of live rock, a plenum(btw, built the plenum, today), feed lightly, stock lightly, keep it clean. Sorry for the super long posts, but I figure, the more information people have, the more informed advice they can give. Anyway, any help will be appreciated. Thanks.:thumbsup:

[FishPish]

Instead of the Ro water, you could try a 1 stage under the sink or Brita / Pur etc water filter. This will at least eliminate some of the hard contaminants. You can also drink the tap water for yourself and not have to worry about getting sick ever. Otherwise it doesn't make sense that you are not allowed to filter your water in the desert.

As an alternative to water changes, if the tank is not sick, let the water evaporate and just fill it back up as needed. A small tank will evaporate 10% really quickly. No waste should be involved. You shouldn't have to dump water from a healthy 20 gallon or below ever, the evaporation should be in pace.

[londonloco]

Because of water waste I never bought a RO/DI unit for my tanks either. I have fairly hard well water also, very high TDS count, had a reef set up for 6 years, my fish and corals thrived just fine, tank was beautiful. Go over to reefcentral, read until you think you know it all, then read some more. I had no problem with any fish, invert or coral. Just start slow, let your tank mature before going wild with purchases of live stock.

[timmytimtim]

You should also set up a refugium. They don't have to be anything expensive. My first fuge was a 5 gallon Home Depot bucket. I just drilles two 1" holes in it and used some aquarium silicone to seal around the lines...water in and water returning to the sump. Add some refugium mud and white sand, or live sand, and macro and it will help with the nitrates. You can make a large fuge with a rubbermaid container.

[mes1234]

I would say give it a go man. A lot of people are finicky when it comes to RO/DI units but realistically, you can probably have a reef with your water. You might not get SUPER bright colors or high growth rates, but I do believe you can be successful. Do you have a TDS meter? If so, let us know the number it gives you for your tap.

[fsn77]

Are my water conditions too full of minerals for a reef?
There's no real answer for that without having a more detailed lab analysis of your water. It may work fine, it may not work at all, or you may end up somewhere in the middle -- being able to keep only certain species because others just won't survive. Without knowing exactly what's in the well water, setting up a reef tank will be an endeavor of trial and error and have its risks.


Besides the water, how is the set up looking? Do I need more light, more powerheads, to alter the filtration(in other words, remove the canister/HOB filter/plenum or alter them somehow?), less live rock, more live rock or any other suggestions?
6 T5HO bulbs on a 75g may turn out to be more than you need for soft corals. 4 may do just fine for the bulk of soft corals, depending on your choice of bulbs and how the corals are placed.

You may find that you'll need 2 additional powerheads, but that'll depend on how your rockwork is set up. The goal is to prevent detritus from settling and building up.

If you're going to have that much rock and sand, there seems to be little need for the canister and HOB filters, unless you plan to use them for chemical media like carbon or phosphate remover. Otherwise, if they are planned to be used as biological filtration, they will require frequent cleaning to remove the detritus that collects within them in order to prevent issues with elevated nitrate levels.



I figured, if I used Kalkwasser it would aid in skimming, and take out a lot of Phosphates in the process.
Unless I've not seen something more current, it's only thought that kalk use may bind phosphates as calcium carbonate precipitates, which then can potentially be skimmed out. I would not rely on that process to be a significant form of phosphate export, especially if your well water ends up being a significant source of phosphates.

[ToeJam]

Problems I see as I am not such an optimist with well water and farming areas. I lived in Illinois once. I understand well water and possible contaminants. Those farmers spray a lot of stuff into soil as they alternate from farming to letting it weed over on a season...never know what gets into run off.

Second thing is if you have used copper based treatments in your 75 gallon for the fish....that is not coral safe anymore without a thorough cleaning as copper is stuck to the glass now. There is a way to clean it....i dont have the link.

RO/DI no go...then you must "Consider" to try to get the best skimmer you can, phosphate remover media and phosban reactor, Carbon, and Fuge going.
Not all in that order...or everything listed....just worse case scenario ...

The reason I say this is Phosban to eliminate phosphate, Carbon to remove the toxins leached into the well, Fuge to help keep nutrients lower, and a great skimmer to suck out what it can.

YOu could be just fine with a good skimmer +Fuge....or skimmer only. As the mod said...without a thorough test...you don't know whats in that water its a chance you will be taking on what may happen as you get going.

Be prepared....its going to be a bumpy ride is you get going...but that is why there are places like this forums...to help smooth the ride if we can.:nilly:

[felixpaws]

I love the fact that fishkeepers can find a way to keep fish(in this case invertebrates) in any circumstances, and you can find people who'll help you do it! So, basically, what you all are saying is research, research, and more research? I need to check my levels specifically. I, also, need to, possibly add more equipment(I was planning on using the canister for carbon, have it, and phosphate removal media, coming tomorrow, and maybe nix the HOB, I was considering changing it out in favor of the fuge, maybe at a later date), and get testing equipment(TDS meter, which I've been looking into, but thought that was only useful for RO/DI water testing, and that regular tapwater would be too high in dissolved solids to be of any use), phospate, and the usual reef test kits. Incidentally, are there any, relatively, inexpensive, but workable electronic Ph meters? It'd be nice to be able to do quick, mess free tests, which will be often. The fuge would end up being a aquatraders.com fuge, if I go that route. I received my protein skimmers, today. They barely fit on my tank, which is a standard 75, All-Glass tank. No Copper has been used in my tank. The waste water from thwe tank isn't the real problem, it's the fact that RO/DI's waste water producing pure water(70% water waste is common). I would not want to just do top-off's. My discus did well, as well as oto's, rams, angelfish, and a bunch of other fish in the well water. We do filter our drinking water, however, it is a slow process, and goes through a UV filter as well as carbon, and tastes way better than the straight well water. I, really, can't use this filter for the tank. It's expensive, and I would not be allowed to uss it for this purpose(although, it might be helpful to get some king of tapwater filter.) Would running the water through carbon, previous to putting it in the tank be helpful? I guess, at this point I should just see how things go, and test my water. Pretty much, the only thing I need to buy is live rock, and two powerheads. I still plan to upgrade the lights, in case I decide to try LPS corals at some point. I figure, the soft corals wouldn't mind the added light, and I can keep them low or in lower light areas, if they do. Any other comments would be helpful, and suggestions are always appreciated. Really, I have no one to turn to for advice around here, and I'm, totally, new to reef, and inexperienced with salt(I really should say unsuccessful with salt, since I could barely keep anything alive:(). I hope, to order my live rock next month, and have the tank all set up by then. Thanks! Any other concerns I should be made aware of?

[fsn77]

Would running the water through carbon, previous to putting it in the tank be helpful?
Potentially... Depending on what is in the water that carbon is effective at removing.


I still plan to upgrade the lights, in case I decide to try LPS corals at some point. I figure, the soft corals wouldn't mind the added light, and I can keep them low or in lower light areas, if they do.
Upgrade the lights? 6 T5 HO bulbs over a 75g would be plenty for any LPS I can think of, and even enough to keep a good number of SPS in the upper part of the tank (if your water quality turns out to be compatible with any SPS). Unless the fixtures you have now have poor reflectors or stop functioning, I'm not sure I see a reason to upgrade to something beyond 6 T5 HO bulbs.

A TDS meter is relatively cheap and not a bad idea to have, however, if you're not purifying the water for the tank any, I'm not sure there's a need to actually own one. Sure, you can check the TDS level of your well water everytime you use it, but unless you're logging it and trying to use that info to potentially figure out why an algae outbreak occurred all of a sudden and then decide to put off a water change if the TDS of the well water exceeds a certain level (for example), I don't think I'd spend the $20 - $30 to buy a TDS meter.

[felixpaws]

I think I'll skip the TDS meter, and focus on a good Ph meter. I need to wait until the beginning of the month to buy a test kit, two powerheads, and live rock. I received my crushed coral, and aragonite, and installed the Plenum, and I must say, that's a lot of stinking substrate, for a 75 gallon! I'm tempted to take out half of it, and forget the whole idea. I know it will settle some, and it is helpful for Nitrate reduction, but sheesh. Anyway, I also received my light bulbs, and refractometer, phosphate remover, and kalkwasser. I'm a little unsure, about the Kalk. I've read that it can get really hot, and melt plastic. Is that a concern if you mix it correctly, in small batches? Two of my light bulbs were broken(UPS totally banged up the box), but I called Petsolutions, and they're replacing my two bulbs, and upgrading one, because it's being discontinued for no extra charge, even though the new bulb is, like, $15 more! Totally easy to get it replaced, too. I can't wait until the end of the month! I can't wait to get my live rock,:look: with all the critters that pop up, after a while! :dive2: That's my favorite part. Thanks!

[felixpaws]

I decided to remove the Plenum, and just go for a 2 1/2" or so, deep sand bed. Removing it wasn't that hard. Luckily, the screen seperated out the crushed coral from the 1mm/2mm aragonite. I, also, built a hanging system, for my lights, so that if I decide to change out my lights, they'll fit over my tank. Also, when I get new corals I will be able to raise the lights to prevent bleaching. I'll try to take pictures of the tank, as it progresses. :grinyes: Right now, it's sitting, with aragonite in the bottom, lights over it, filters set-up, heater in, and basically, ready to go. It's driving me CRAZY!!! :cry: I'm all set to go, but have to wait, until next month. Urrgghh!

[mlefessler]

Patience is a virtue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fsn77]

I'm a little unsure, about the Kalk. I've read that it can get really hot, and melt plastic. Is that a concern if you mix it correctly, in small batches?
I've not had this problem at all. It does get a little warm, but should not hurt any sturdy container. If you're concerned (nothing wrong with being cautious), start out mixing it at half of the strength you're wanting it to be, then add in a little more and more slowly until you reach the strength you're shooting for, keeping an eye on how warm the solution gets as you go.

Of course, kalk can chemically burn your skin and it is definitely something you do not want to get into your eyes, so do be careful when using it.



Patience is a virtue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Definitely!

[felixpaws]

I'll try the Kalk at half, and work my way up, thanks, for the advice, and experience. I must be the most un-virtuous person I know! Of course, my dad tried to convince me to fill it with saltwater, yesterday! Lol! My stepmom is traveling for two weeks, and was asking when I could buy live rock. I told her it'd be two weeks, and she seemed dissappointed, so, all things considered I'd say I'm doing quite well. Ha.:cry: Sorry, still no pictures. I'll keep trying to borrow my dad's camera. I was talking with my stepmom, and she said that they'd done a water test, recently, and it showed good drinking water quality, but I don't know about reef water quality. (We suspected high Nitrates, and we didn't have those, amongst other things.) I figured, that the upgrade in lights would happen if I got into SPS corals, later on. The way the tank is set up it is easiest to do now, while the tank is lightest(no live rock, water). Also, it will be nice to be able to adjust the height for new corals. Does anyone else use Reef Crystals, and do they mix quickly? Any notes on them? Can saltwater sit for an extended periods of time? Will the unmixed salts degrade over time? I'll probably think of several other questions, but can't think of any more, at the moment. Any suggestions? Good places to buy live rock? Good beginners soft corals or other corals that would be suitable? Reef fish to start with? Cautions?:nono: Thanks.:goldfish:

[fsn77]

I use Reef Crystals. The dry salt mix, as long as it remains dry, is fine for years. If it gets hard and forms large clumps, then it's no longer good, at least for a tank of corals. If the dry salt mix starts absorbing moisture, some of the individual salts making up the mix react and form insoluble precipitates. Keep it sealed and dry, and there shouldn't be any issues. When mixing it, I feel it mixes pretty quickly. The mixed saltwater can be stored, but I always keep it mixing with a powerhead while I'm storing it.

If you want to buy dry rock and make it live yourself, Marco Rock (http://www.marcorocks.com/) is a popular choice. I've not bought any live rock online, so I couldn't really recommend one place over another.

Many soft corals make good starter corals. There's so many that could be suggested... It's almost easier for you to list those you're interested in and ask if they'll be ok for someone just starting out. If you need a place to browse through, LiveAquaria (http://www.liveaquaria.com/) isn't a bad place to start for ideas.

If you don't have anyplace to get beginner's corals locally, you may want to post a WTB ad in some of the various hobby forums, including here in the Marketplace (and even Craigslist just to see if there's someone else close with a reef tank). I'm pretty confident that someone would be willing to put together a frag pack for you. It would involve shipping if you don't find someone locally, so the cost of shipping may not be all that exciting, but if you end up needing to order from someplace online, there'll be similar shipping costs and likely higher costs for the corals.

If you haven't already, you may want to see if anyone from the Idaho Marine Aquarium Society (http://www.idahoreefs.org/) has any live rock or beginner corals to sell. It seems like they meet in Boise quite a bit, which I see is quite far from where you live. However, there's probably some other hobbyists somewhere between where you are and Boise that'll gladly meet 1/2 way between you and them.

[felixpaws]

I was planning on joining the Idaho club, anyway, so, this might be an option. I figured ebay for a frag pack, but when I get to that point I'll check here, and on monsterfishkeepers.com, as well. Good to know, about the salt mix, and mixed salt(ha!). I have a big, blue barrel to mix it in, and store it, and will, most likely use a powerhead, to keep it stirred up. I figured, for good starter soft corals, a few types of zoanthids, some green star polyps, yellow polyps, some ricordea mushrooms(or common types, if ricordea are kind of difficult), maybe a leather, of some type, a kenyan tree coral, and research various other easy corals online or buy some more reef books(or both). Any suggestions on some of the more commonly available soft corals, that would go with that grouping or any advice on the list provided? I'm not stuck on those choices, I just don't know of that many "easy" corals. I've paid attention, and those seem to come up, most often, in the places I look. I figured, if I was able to keep some of those alive, I could, maybe, add some LPS corals, later on. I'm going to try to upload some pictures of the empty tank, since my dad let me use his camera. Ignore the stuffed fish, and fact I live with my dad, and stepmom. I'm 34. No, seriously! Why doesn't anyone believe me?

[felixpaws]

That's my first attachment on here. That was easy.:newbie: I'll have to do that more often. The second picture shows my light hanging do-hickey. Home depot rigid conduit, bent at 45degrees(?), cut to fit, strapped to the back of my dresser, with chain, zip-ties, and s hooks holding them up, so that I can adjust the height. It worked out, rather well. You can use rope or wire, but I liked the look of chain, and figured it'd last the longest. You can do what I did in, like, fifty different ways, and I'm already planning on changing it, at some point. Ignore the blue zip-ties. I couldn't find my dad's black ones, and green seemed, sort of, weird. Sorry, about the reflection on the glass, and flash in the photo. I'm not a photographer. I don't know if you can see the canister filter, on the left side, but it's there. No sump. No room.:irked: Any comments are welcome.:D

[felixpaws]

Sorry it took so long, but here's an answer to your question, about Kalkwasser lowering Phosphates. Here's one of the places I read about it: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php#15 Scroll down to the index, and click on Kalkwasser, and phosphates(I don't remember what it said, exactly, but it's something like "what else does kalkwasser do in aquariums: Lower phosphates." If you look around, you'll find tons of other references to the phenomenon. Thanks, for looking!:)

[felixpaws]

I just re-read your post, about kalk., and phosphates. You, probably, know more on the subject, than I. I had misremembered the post, and had thought you needed the link.:shakehead: Next time, I'll read back, first.:grinyes:

[felixpaws]

I ordered my live rock through Petco.com, since drs. foster and smith were out. I should get it in, tomorrow! With the holiday weekend, and all, it's been sort of confusing. Petco.com's employee's didn't work Saturday or Sunday, and for a lot of people, Monday was a holiday, too. I called customer service, and was told I'd, most likely, receive it Wednesday. Hopefully, it will get here, early, tomorrow. :wall: I love dealing with outsourced customer service people, who don't know our holidays or customs, and don't seem to like me very much. :irked: Anyway, I "should" get my 90lbs. of fiji live rock, tomorrow. My tanks all set, except for some temperature fluctuations, and topping off to maintain salinity, I'm all set. :grinyes::headbang2::dance::thumbsup:!!! Now, if I can just not screw it all up too badly...:nilly: Wish me luck!

[felixpaws]

I received my live rock, via ups, today. I was a little dissapointed. It came in 3 big, solid pieces, and 2 small pieces. I ended up going to my lfs, and paying $7 a pound for some better pieces. I, also, took a hammer, and chisel to the big pieces. I'm a little happier, now. I'll tell you, though, the lfs rock was a much higher quality, than the Petco.com rock. On the Lfs rock, I've already found bristleworms, copepods, a small brittle starfish, and it has purple corraline algae on it. :popcorn: The Petco.com rock was, seemingly, devoid of life, and seemed like a rip-off. That's what i get for trying to save a few bucks. I spent $400 on 5 pieces of rock, that I'm not happy with, and $115 on 5, smaller pieces of rock, that I'm thrilled with. My suggestion? Buy from your LFS. You can see what your buying, you get it, now, mine had lots more life on, and in it, and you support local businesses, keeping the hobby alive. I, also, figured out how to get my protein skimmers to work. They were overflowing the skimmate cup, and I didn't know why. A google search turned up, actual, odyssea directions, which were very helpful. Plus, I learned a few things, besides that from the search. You need to take the cap off of the air inlet tube, when you first set up the skimmer, you can attach a air pump, to increase efficiency, and some other diy stuff. I'm going to attempt to take pictures, and upload them, tomorrow.

[felixpaws]

So, I got the second half of my petco.com shipment, yesterday. That was a big surprise! I thought I'd gotten the complete shipment, the first day. No, no, no. I got another box, mostly full, of smaller rock. Yea!!! Plus, (wait for it!) I found a zoanthid on the second shipment! It's a really pretty, bi-colored, flourescent green. I reset my lights to ten hours a day, instead of eight(I read somewhere that leaving the lights on, while live rock cured, and the tank cycled would help the corraline algae grow.). I put an air pump on my skimmers, and I'm getting bubbles, but a lot of noise, and no foam. I've heard it takes a couple of days to break in. Unfortunately, I broke the ceramic impeller shaft, trying to get the skimmer working, initially. It still spins, but is noisy as all heck, and isn't running like the other skimmer. I'll need to buy a new impeller or powerhead, I think. Anyone know where to get odyssea parts or parts that will also work(like with the corralife legs for the lights) as a stand in? :help: Also, what do I need to do to keep this zoanthid alive? Should i feed it, change the temperature(78F to 79F)? Any helpful hints or suggestions? :confused: I keep the salinity at 1.025, according to my hydrometer. It lasted the night, but I'm not sure it will survive the cycle. It's near the top of the tank, on a big piece of live rock. I'm running chemi-pure, carbon, and phospure(?), in the canister filter, the two protein skimmers, an Emporer 400, with two bags of bio-noodles in each(I'd use live rock rubble, but there wasn't much in the boxes. Maybe two or three small pieces.), 6 T5HO 48" bulbs, 3 actinic, and 3 1200K bulbs hanging on chains, reef crystals, 1-2mm aragonite, 104lbs. of fiji live rock, 75 gallon tank, glass lids, 300watt(?) visi-therm heater, 10% weekly water changes, with well water(I haven't done my first water change, yet. Monday.) 5 stage jebo canister filter, 2 odyssea 75 gallon rated protein skimmers(no skimmate, yet), with a whisper 20 air pump attached, and, for now, no possibility of a sump or refugium. The sump is not possible for the forseeable future, and a refugium would have to wait for a while, but even then would only be a hang on the back. Any suggestions? Sorry, to anyone at petco, for the negative comment. The paper in the first box didn't explain very well, and I only read it cursorily. Totally satisfied with my purchase. It's lacking corraline algae, but the zoanthid was a cool surprise. I'll try to get pictures, but my dad has been using his camera to photo his rentals. Thanks, any help is appreciated.:tropicalfish: :dive2::dive::goldfish:

[Jstdv8]

your tank hasnt cycled yet (I didnt' read the entire thread) so that zoa might have a hard time making it through the cycle. They are resilient so if any coral can its probably them.
ALso, if you are gettinga sump you may consider an algea turf scrubber to take out the crap that you are going to ave in your water with no RO system attached.

[J double R]

Message from the light side: Farewell!

[felixpaws]

It would be a refugium, not a sump. Hopefully, it will survive, but I checked my Nitrate levels, and they are within acceptable levels.(According to the dip, and test instructions for saltwater) Everything was within acceptable levels. Any suggestions, based on my set-up, to increase the likelyhood it will survive? Here are some pictures of the Zoa, live rock, and protein skimmers. Sorry if it's a little cloudy. I had just re-stacked my live rock, and stirred the bottom, a little.

[Jstdv8]

looks like a ncie setup.
There are things you could do to increase thier chances, but honestly I'd let nature take its course. if you let the cycle run its full course without additives you increase the likleyhood of a solid established tank down the road. IMO it's not worth risking for 5 bucks worth of zoas, and who knows they may pull through just fine. They are stout little buggers. I like the color on the zoa in the rocks there.

[fsn77]

When you say you increased your lights from 8 hours a day to 10 hours, are you talking about your total light cycle or just the daylight bulbs? If it's 10 hours of daylight, that is too long and going to grow much more than coralline algae... It likely won't be long before some nuissance algaes takes off with 10 hours of daylight.

Feeding the zoa isn't necessary.

In looking at the pic that shows your skimmers... Are they set up properly? There should be far more bubbles and something that at least ressembles a head of foam, even if you're not getting actual skimmate yet. I see you broke the ceramic shaft... That's generally a replaceable part, although not always the easiest thing to find. In all honesty, with the shaft broken (on both pumps? or are the two skimmers supplied by just one pump?), it's not even worth running the pump. It's quite possible that whatever's left of the ceramic shaft is becoming more damaged by trying to run it, which could end up causing damage to the impeller and/or the motor body itself. I'd shut it down until you can find a replacement part or a different pump to use.

[Jstdv8]

sheesh you're observant. where did you see the ceramic shaft broke?
I did notice the bubbles weren't doing anything at all.

[Jstdv8]

ohh NM, I see he wrote that. I was like holy crap, he's good LOL

[fsn77]

sheesh you're observant. where did you see the ceramic shaft broke?
I did notice the bubbles weren't doing anything at all.


ohh NM, I see he wrote that. I was like holy crap, he's good LOL

LOL It happens. :)

Yeah, there should definitely be far more bubbles than what's in the pic.

[felixpaws]

I believe, that only one shaft is broken. I am running an air pump to both skimmers, and not sure how else to run it. If I take the airpump off it overflows into the collection cup. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.:wall:
I found a site with instructions for them, and it states that the airline cap should be removed, but that didn't help, at all. Both filters rattle, a lot, but that may be due to the air being forced into the powerhead. I've looked, online, and can't find anyone who is selling an impeller or new powerhead of this type. The whole unit set me back less than $50, and I'm tempted to just buy a third unit, and replace the one with the broken shaft. The zoa is still alive, today. I do my 10% water change, tomorrow. I have mixed up my saltwater, already. I'll clean the filter cartridges of any particulate matter(there was some newspaper that I couldn't remove, from shipping). All my lights are on for 10 hours, now. Should I lessen them, and adjust how long the different spectrum lights are on? The lights are on timers, and I can adjust them so that only two come on at a time(simulating dawn/dusk, or so that actinic are on, but not 1200K). The only problem is that I have mixed the 1200K, with actinic, as far as order goes. I was trying to even out the colors, and get the same lighting consistency, so, if the first set of two bulbs come on, it's actinic, and 1200K, and same with the other two, sets of two. Should I just have one set of actinic, one set of 1200K, and one mixed? How long should daylength be? I'm already getting brown diatoms, and it's been less than a week. I've already made the mistake of throwing a few NLS marine pellets in, and some omega one color enhancing flakes(not on the same day, and only once, for each). Looks like I'm off to a bad start. :newbie: It's two separate skimmers, so, two pumps. I may have broken both impeller shafts. They're pretty cheap. The air pump is pumping so much air in that the tube connecting the powerhead to the main body doesn't fill, entirely. If I decrease the air flow, it overflows. If I adjust the water level, it still overflows. AAARGGH! :1zhelp:

[felixpaws]

So, based on your post that it wasn't enough foam(after searching through a hundred websites, and e-mailing the aquatraders website), I went to my skimmers, and tried adjusting them, again...and(drumroll, please?) I have foam, no noise, and it's running great! :clap::y220e::hi::p::rofl::D:woot::):dance: I plan on leaving the level in the chamber low, until I'm sure it won't overflow, but I'm totally, stoked! (nevermind the 80's surfer reference) Is it more possible, now, than before, that the zoa will survive? Now, I just need to put the foam filters back on, to reduce micro-bubbles. So, my advice to others, with this skimmer:Attach an air pump, replace the air inlet knob for a better air valve(I used my penguin 550 venturi knob, adjust the level, to make sure it doesn't overflow(this will need to be done, often. I adjusted it at least ten times, over two or three days.), let it run crappy, for a few days, then, try adjusting the airflow. My impeller is broken, and running loose in the shaft, and it still works, beyond my expectations(and let me tell you, it hasn't even, really, started to produce foam, yet.). Let it break in.

[Jstdv8]

During the break in yuo are going to get a bunch of faom just rolling over the edge even when its turned all the way down. This is just as simple as your tank being full of nutrients that the skimmer is trying to preocess. The tank hasnt ahd a skimmer on it before so its going crazy trying to keep up.
You need to have a bunch of saltwater and freshwater made up to top off with to comensate for the loss of the water that will overflow for the first while until it starts to get things under control.
You will notice the same thing happens, but to a lesser extent every time you feed your tank, especially coral food.

[felixpaws]

Thanks! I didn't know all of that. I've been having problems with keeping it from overflowing, like crazy. I did a 10 gallon water change, today. When I re-started the skimmers they wouldn't stop overflowing, again. I've lowered the water level, and increased the air flow. I was hoping it just needed to build up some proteins on the walls(what people call breaking in, maybe?), so that it won't pop the bubbles before they can reach the top, and enter the collection cup. I'll try letting it overflow with weak bubbles, and empty the cup, often. I let it run all night, and I didn't get any foam out of it. When I first adjusted it, yesterday, it foamed fine. Really dry foam. I saw, on youtube, that the best height for the water was just at the top of the reaction chamber. Is this correct? Can someone tell me how long should I have my day length, and how should the bulbs be arranged? Should I start a new thread for that or just continue, here? The salinity went down a little. I assume it's from cleaning the filter cartridges, and floss, and not letting them drip dry enough. I tried to raise the salinity of the change water, to offset the imbalance, but it didn't work. It's still below 1.025. Any suggestions? I planned on letting some water evaporate, to raise salinity. Is this a bad idea?

[Jstdv8]

just top off with saltwater instead of freshwater until you get the salinity you are looking for. this way it doesnt jump quickly.
Yes the microbubbles should be right at the top of the reaction chamber and the foaming bubbles should work thier way up the tube from there

[fsn77]

You can keep asking questions in this same thread... The title isn't specific to just one or two questions, so you're welcome to keep asking questions here all together in one place and it shouldn't create any confusion.

It's ok if you don't have the bulbs arranged so the switches work out to actinics only and daylights only. The bulbs can be arranged however you want them to be to get the overall effect you like. You can still use the timers to have smaller amounts of bulbs come on at first and stay on longer than when all the lights are running. Ultimately, I wouldn't recommend running at max lighting (all bulbs on) more than 8 hours a day. Reduced lighting (typically thought of as actinics only) can be any reasonable time period before and after that you're ok with, and I've seen people go as short as 30 minutes and as long as 2 hours. There's a lot of personal preference involved.

[felixpaws]

Thank you!:cool: Both those suggestions are really appreciated. For some reason, I just didn't think to top off with saltwater. One problem, though. Since I have glass lids, I don't need to top up, often. It's hot, this week, so, I hope I'll need to. Will a salinity(is it salinity if you measure with a refractometer or Standard Gravity, I forget, and keep forgetting to check my instructions.) slightly lower than 1.025 be a problem? I believe it's between 1.025, and 1.020. I'm using those cheap dip, and test strips, and it shows everything in acceptable parameters(alkalinity, PH, nitrate, but not ammonia). How long should it take, before I start showing high nitrates, and nitrites? I figured on waiting a month, before I added some snails, and a hermit crab or two. I've heard some bad press on the blue legged hermits, so, I plan to add only a couple, and see how it goes. (Plus, on my 40 gallon, years ago, my blue legged killed all the snails, and then each other for they're shells, so, I'm a bit hesitant.) Should I turn on two bulbs, then two more after 15 minutes, the final two after 30 minutes, and the reverse at lights out, with the total amount of time at 8 hours? Does it matter which order? Say, front to back or back to front? I'm starting to get some algae growth(brown diatoms), and some macroalgae(on the live rock. They look like a tiny pine trees). I'll reset the time, tonight. The Zoa is still alive, but seems smaller, today. Of course, the lights hadn't been on for long, when i looked at it. Lots of pods running around. Some bristleworms, and a mini-starfish. I saw a small worm of some kind, also. Cool stuff. Thanks.

[felixpaws]

Once I get high nitrates, I can add livestock, right? I know the times vary, system to system, but how long, between the nitrites to nitrates should it be, approximately? I've been running the tank for a week, now. I'm getting antsy. Even a few snails would be an improvement. Besides, I'm getting tired of waitnig for the polyp to die:cry:(and hoping it doesn't). Plus, it'd be nice to start off the cleaning crew. Any advice on impatience? :wall:

[fsn77]

You can stagger the sequence for the lights coming on and off any way you like. Front to back, back to front -- it really doesn't matter. I'd still suggest having all 6 bulbs on at the same time for no more than 8 hours. 15 - 30 minutes for each pair of bulbs building up / coming down from that is fine if that's what you'd like, or you could even go a little bit longer.

Once you get back down to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and have measurable nitrate, then you can do a large water change to bring the nitrate down. After that, you can start thinking about slowly adding livestock. If you didn't have an appreciable amount of ammonia to begin with, you won't get a good indication of nitrite or nitrate to know if those bacteria have begun to really establish themselves.

My best advice on enduring the impatience... Think about all of the critters you'd like to start putting in the tank, then add up how much money you'll have lost if you put them in too soon and they start dieing off. If that's not a good enough way to get through this time, I'm not sure what else will be. :)

[Jstdv8]

nitrates are hard on inverts, make sure and bring that level down to a managebale number before adding.
40 or less would be ideal

[felixpaws]

Thank you, for your advice. I bought some ammonia test strips, and there's very little ammonia, after a week. The live rock I bought was pre-cycled. I've heard that some new salt tanks don't go through a complete cycle. Could that be the case, here? The polyp is still alive, and has expanded, fully. My protein skimmers ran all night, and i had some brown water in the collection cups. They haven't exactly foamed, yet. I let them overflow, when I first started them up, as suggested, and they stopped overflowing. I added back the water taken out, and made up some more change water. I turned the lights down to eight hours a day, but I'm afraid it might be too late. I have lots of algae. I couldn't wait, and went to Petco, today, and bought a margarita snail, a couple cerith snails, and 4 red legged hermit crabs. I figured, if a zoa could survive, these should be okay. I know. I'm a horrible person. :FIREdevil: I just couldn't wait, and all my parameters are still within acceptable levels. I've been testing since I started it up, and no problems, so far. (except the algae.) Please, don't condemn me? I was lured in, by a zoa, and cheap livestock. :help2: I plan to check, every day, for ammonia, and do large water changes, when needed. So far, it seems that I'm not getting a lot of foam. I keep getting light brown liquid in the collection cup, but it seems like it's just fromt the bubbles popping, below the neck. If I adjust the level of water, so that the bubbles reach the top, I get really wet foam. I've lowered the level to where others have said it should be, but like I wrote. Very little foam.

[Jstdv8]

The thing is you want to have a good cycle. once the new tank has gone through a good hard cycle the bacteria is established and stabilized and that is when you are ready for fish/inverts ect.
You don't want to rush anything.
The zoa was one thing when it came in as a freebie on the LR but buying livestock even if its crabs is just kinda cruel.
You WANT to see the ammonia in your tank, that means its working. let it kick without adding anything else and certainly no chemicals ect until the ammonia is no longer present, you should see a spike in nitrites and then nitrates as the cycle takes its course. you will likley see an increase in both nitrates and trites before the ammonia is even completley gone.
All of this is a good thing.
BE PATIENT!!!
Cheap livestock is not cheap if it dies and not fair to the critter

[felixpaws]

I have higher nitrates, today, and zero ammonia. All the livestock are still alive. So far, I'm lucky. I just couldn't resist getting the snails, and crabs. It seemed like the tank had cycled, already. Is it possible that it has? The nitrates are a little high, but still within acceptable levels. The petco.com rock was pretty clean of organics, and the lfs rock was completely cycled before I bought it. It went a short distance to my house, and into my tank. Is it possible that the combination of favorable conditions led to a quick cycle? The ammonia is, actually, lower than yesterday, and the nitrates higher. The polyp has developed some lavender in it's center. I'm hoping it gets more colorful as time goes on. Any suggestions on livestock for a soft coral reef tank? I've tentatively decided on a firefish, two tank-raised percula clowns, some blue/green chromis, maybe some pajama cardinals(I'd rather have bangaii cardinals, but can't get any tank raised, locally.), a lawnmower blenny, and perhaps a yellow tang(the yellow tang is probably not going to happen, since they get pretty big, and have a large natural range.), maybe a peppermint shrimp or two, maybe another kind of goby or blenny(neon goby), maybe a yellowheaded jawfish. Does anyone have any ideas on those picks? Any suggestions for alternatives, if these are not suitable. I know I can't add them all, and some will probably not be compatable. I'm trying to distract myself from buying more livestock. I should have waited to add livestock. I hope the crabs, and snails live. So far, so good, but now I'm worried they'll die. I'll have to keep a close eye on my water parameters.

[felixpaws]

I tested my water, today, and no ammonia, no nitrites, okay alkalinity, okay ph, and 20ppm nitrates(or so, it's a color chart, and hard to get exact readings). I did my second water change on it. A little over 10 gallons. My salinity is at 1.025. All the animals are alive, and kicking. :headbang2: The protein skimmers are putting out really dark foam, and working great. I cleaned the glass, filter cartridges, and filter floss. The temp. is 78F. After two weeks, will I still experience a cycle? I'm experiencing some filamentous algae, as well as diatoms. Any ideas on the stocking list I gave? I've been keeping my hands off the tank, with effort. No rearranging the rockwork, no new livestock, no feeding. I topped it off, with saltwater, to raise salinity. Should I feed the snails, and hermits or are they fine with the algae, and detritus in the tank? I was thinking I'd wait a week, and then add some more snails, and hermits. Bad idea? Too soon? Wait two weeks? Three, even? :drool: Total newbie, here. I haven't had a saltwater tank in years, and have forgotten most of what I knew, which wasn't much. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

[felixpaws]

Here are a couple of new pictures!

[felixpaws]

So, it's been, almost, two months, and I have a bunch of blue, and red legged hermits, and snails in the tank. I have not added any new live stock, since the beginning of the month(literally, the first, I think.), and am not sure how to proceed. I rushed, and bought the crabs, and snails, but would like to do this right, so, I'm waiting to buy any fish. How long should I wait? Until the end of the month? Is two weeks, after adding the crabs, and snails long enough? The algae in the tank has subsided, as I've done more maintenance, changed water, and generally, improved my husbandry skills. Amazingly, the polyp has reproduced, and I have a second polyp, about half the size of the first one, now. I noticed it shortly after the beginning of the month. I've read that polyps can produce new polyps every month. Does that sound about right? I haven't dosed any Kalk, but I have fed the snails, and hermits some algae wafers, and NLS marine formula pellets, as well as some shrimp pellets. I have several different kinds of snails, and believe I have Nassarius, Margarita, and Cerith snails. This is according to Petco, and there are several unidentified ones, as well. I bought a small clip on fan to cool off the tank, and have found that if I close my bedroom door it stays at 78F in the tank. I changed out my carbon, and phosphate remover, at the beginning of the month, and added bio-chem zorb to the canister filter. My main question is: When can I add fish? :goldfish::tropicalfish::dive2: Next would be: Are my fish choices acceptable? and last: How many fish should I add at a time? Thanks. Any suggestions would be appreciated.:1zhelp:

[felixpaws]

So, now I have cyano.(red slime algae), because I upped the light duration, and overfed, I think? Fsn77, did you mean 8 hours day length just while cycling, because after it cycled, and I bought a few zoa polyps, I changed the duration to 12 hours a day? I had researched online, and I kept reading that normal duration was 12 hours a day, so, I upped it. Should I lower the duration, with two coral trees, and 10 or 15 polyps in the tank?

[felixpaws]

So, it's been, almost 6 months. I have a Fungia, green tree, green star polyps, Blastomussa merletti, and wellsi, red mushrooms, two different colors of zoas, and colt/kenya tree corals. Also, some kind of anemone I bought for $5, as a polyp. Fish: Purple firefish, reg. firefish, two ocelleris clowns, yellow watchman goby, lawnmower blenny, bangaii cardinal, one p.j. cardinal, yellow tang, neon cleaner goby, a sixline wrasse, and two p.j. cardinals in my 20H quarantine/hospital/frag tank. I added a HOB fuge, with chaeto, and two clip on bedside lamps, with two daylight flourescents over it. My live rock has shifted some, and I've rearranged it a bit. I was having huge issues with cyano., until I read that you should be vacuuming the gravel, as maintenance, and that cured that. My zoas are still, sort of, dissappearing, slowly. I got the sixline to deal with, what I think was a pyramidellid snail, but now, am not sure it was. I found several snail hitchhikers, and they looked like pictures I found. Removed what I could of them, and prayed. My green tree coral won't open, and it's been a week, and a half. I'm getting some kind of brown slime strings attached, and waving around, that are easily waved off with my hand. My zoas are reproducing, the kenya is huge, compared to it's original size, the green star polyps spread some, the anemone has gotten bigger, and the other corals are too new to have grown much. I started adding Purpleup, and that's when my green stars started to spread. I, finally, got my API test kits in(Reef master, and Saltwater master), tested all the parameters, and decided to get some Superbuffer DKH, added the suggested amount, ordered a Calcium additive, added some to raise calcium, started to add kalk. before that, for a while, and have been trying to get the water params. stable for a few weeks, now. Every time I test, I get different levels. Too low alk. one week, too low calcium, after I dosed alk., kalk. seems to make no difference, because I don't get enough evap. to add very much.(Approx. 1 1/2 liter per night.) I do weekly 10 to 15 gallon water changes, with reef crystals. I still use wll water. I re-read Ace's 75 gallon build, and will start to rinse my frozen food, before I add, but I'm lost. I've read a ton on additives, and still don't understand it all. Read the reefcentral kalk., and additive articles, and feel I'm not dosing enough Kalk., but can't do more without lowering the salinity. Heeellllpppp!!! The corals aren't all happy, and I know I'm not dosing correctly. Fish are fine, but I've had corals closed, and wierd test readings. I don't, totally, understand what people mean when they say "balanced " calcium, alk., and pH. I've lost a finger leather that I believe was in poor shape when I bought it, some zoas, a rock of Mushrooms I bought at Petco(they keep them under T8's for crying out loud, I bought them too late. From now on I buy them only one or two days in the store, no later.), so, nothing that I can tell was really my fault, but am afraid of losing the green tree or more. Any advice on kalk. dosing, additives, and general helpful comments would be great. Some corals are fine, and others not so much. Pics. are from today. I do my maintenance, and water changes on Mondays. I desperately need to clean the fuge, again, and general tidying up. Chemical media is Chemipure, and chemipure elite, carbon, GFO, and biochem zorb in a canister. 9watt UV sterilizer run all the time, two protein skimmers, rated for 75 gallons each. 1, 4 bulb T5HO, and 1, 2 Bulb T5HO fixture over the the tank. Params. tested Friday were High Alk., low Calcium, Ph 8.2. I don't always test Amm., Nitrate, Nitrite, and Phosphate, becuase so far they've been zero. Sorry for the huge amount of info. I believe it to be better to have too much info. than not enough. Thanks.

[felixpaws]

So, I did some more reading, and think I have down the "balance" of a reef tank. I think I found the answer on the Marine Depot's website. Has anyone ordered the Garf.org pack of soft corals? I plan to order at the beginning of next month, and would like some opinions on them. If they are not good, does anyone have any suggestions for $100 frag packs? It'd be nice to get free shipping, but i will live if not. I'm trying to get as many frags as I can, for as cheap as I can. I'm on a budget. Anyone have a bunch of beginner softy, lps frags to sell, near the beginning of next month? I'm in Idaho, and have few options for good LFS'. Thanks, and Merry Christmas!!!:p:

[rufioman]

I have no idea about saltwater anything....I just wanted to say, man, that is an impressive tank and some beautiful fish. Makes me wanna tear down my 80g mbuna and salt the crap out of it. A+ for my $0.02.

[felixpaws]

Pictures of my tank. Obviously, the tank needed maintenance, in some shots. I am not a professional photographer, obviously, and didn't use a tripod for these pictures. As you can see, I have only a few corals, and I have issues with algae, but this is my first reef tank, and still need to learn a ton to get up where most of you guys are. Anyone with free coral? I'd, totally, pay shipping, if I can get enough coral in one shipment or if it's a good enough amount. Looking for pumping Xenia, more Zoa's, maybe a leather or two, mushrooms(other than red ones)? Any suggestions?

[felixpaws]

Thanks, Rufioman. It isn't as hard as I make it look, lol! There are some pictures of my Mbuna tank, too. It looks a little different at the moment, since I traded in all my Electric Yellow's to my LFS, and I rearranged the rock structure. I plan to get the Double bright LED Marineland light, at some point, since I don't have plants in the tank, anymore. That should help the electric bill some. Thanks, for looking. Merry Christmas! Wish for another tank for Christmas, and set it up as salt, lol! :tropicalfish::dive: