Yet another lighting question.

[AquatiCreations]

Hey Guys,

I know this has probably been discussed a million and one times here, but I'll just give it another ask.

From what I've read in various places, there seems to be a watt per gallon thing going on, 4-10 watts per gallon from my understanding. Is this information up to date? Does it apply differently to each type of bulb(FL,CFL,HO,VHO,MH)?

And is there a difference(other than heat and power consumption wise) between all the bulb types, for example. 100wCFL vs. 100wMH of the same color spectrum? I know a vast majority of people favor halides, I'm just wondering what the crucial difference is, if the wattage is the same, and the kelvin is the same.

I'd like to be able to keep SPS on down the line,I've currently got a 15g(10g footprint but higher) FOWLR, and after I make a change in lighting I'd like to set it up with some small coral frags most notably Acropora.

Any Help appreciated!-
AC

[Amphiprion]

The watt-per-gallon rule has become largely defunct. We have found that 250w of one form of lighting does not necessarily equal the intensity of the other. In particular, LED lighting has been dramatically smashing the old rule with incredible efficiency ratings which equate to far more light output per watt vs energy lost as heat. Better reflectors have made metal halide even more efficient than ever, taking advantage of similar ideas that are used with T5s (and resulting in a very similar efficiency per watt). This also means that the heat produced is also the same between metal halide and T5 (only T5 heat is more diffuse). Contrast all of this with normal flourescents or compact fluorescents and you simply won't get nearly the intensity, even with the same amount of watts. This is where PAR or, more appropriately, PPFD comes in handy. It's is basically a measure of the intensity of light within the spectra that is conducive to photosynthesis. The higher the PAR, the faster the rate of photosynthesis and the faster carbon can be fixed as a form of energy (very basically, of course, without naming any other factors involved). That translates into a better energy budget and more room for growth and reproduction, not counting prey capture in corals, anemones, clams, etc.

[AquatiCreations]

Ah I see, so,T5(VHO), and metal halide produce a more intense light than other bulb types, even though wattage and kelvin are the same correct?

I'd like to provide my corals with an ample supply of light to thrive on, but do not want to burn or bleach them from too much intensity. Although my target species being Acropora, I'd like to keep some soft corals as well. Is there any way to tell how much light is too much?

And with my tank having such a small footprint would considerable heat transfer be a problem with MH?

Edit: I'm aware of the extreme performance put out by LED's but, the current low availability and high price tag, have put them out of my reach for now.

[Jstdv8]

I prefer the WPG just becuase its easy. To get par you need an instument and you actually have to have the light allready. to get WPG you need a calculator or a light piece of math in your head. It's by far not the most accurate because of so many advances in the hobby with everything from the light bulbs to the reflectors to the depth of the tank and water clarity but it will get you in the ball park at least for everything except LED's and plasmas

[DoctaQ]

leds arent really that expensive and with your 15 tall it would cost in the range of 200-250, pretty close to 4 bulb t5 or mh

[Amphiprion]

I prefer the WPG just becuase its easy. To get par you need an instument and you actually have to have the light allready. to get WPG you need a calculator or a light piece of math in your head. It's by far not the most accurate because of so many advances in the hobby with everything from the light bulbs to the reflectors to the depth of the tank and water clarity but it will get you in the ball park at least for everything except LED's and plasmas

While PPFD meters will give you a more exact measurement of the intensity on individual tanks, one isn't required to make better lighting choices. There is a wealth of information available that makes it possible to make good decisions without a meter. Again, for many forms of lighting, WPG can still be misleading. Another example: in a given area and depth, a 250w halide can be much more intense than T5s. Within the same spread of the halide, however, a T5 setup may be more intense elsewhere, as they have a more even output. So, if you have a small enough area to cover, you may get more useful intensity out of the halide. Of course, a lot of this is application-specific, which can also make WPG misleading. For moderate-sized, normally proportioned tanks, WPG may be okay to use, especially if you are using higher intensity forms to begin with. Then again, it may be too much light. Say a site says 5 wpg minimum and you have a 75g with T5 lamps. That's more than a 6 lamp setup, which is adequate for just about anything. Much more and you may have trouble acclimating things unless it is done very carefully and slowly.

I agree with DoctaQ in that such a setup would be roughly the same in terms of price and comparable (or better in many cases) intensity.

[AquatiCreations]

I agree with DoctaQ in that such a setup would be roughly the same in terms of price and comparable (or better in many cases) intensity.

Really? It's been a while since I last checked on LED's, but if I remember correctly they we're running anywhere from $400-$1000+, atleast while they were available, and then they were even taken off the market due to a copyright violation. Did they make a comeback?

[Amphiprion]

That's for the commercial units. DIY units are far, far cheaper.

[DoctaQ]

many commercial units are just terrible imo and are a disgrace to leds.

making it yourself if you have the time and skills will tailor the light to your tank shape and requirements, be cheaper and more powerful and could last longer.

12 leds could be enough for you especially if you want a lower light sandbed

[AquatiCreations]

many commercial units are just terrible imo and are a disgrace to leds.

making it yourself if you have the time and skills will tailor the light to your tank shape and requirements, be cheaper and more powerful and could last longer.

12 leds could be enough for you especially if you want a lower light sandbed

This sounds very interesting, especially if it doesn't get "too" technical, I see that you have a 15 long, and the pictures look like that setup is doing your coral justice.

As for the lower light sand bed, that's exactly why I chose the 15 high, so I could keep the SPS up top, and the softies in the bottom.

When you say 12 LEDs should be enough, do you mean 12 daylight, or are actinics included there?

[Amphiprion]

This sounds very interesting, especially if it doesn't get "too" technical, I see that you have a 15 long, and the pictures look like that setup is doing your coral justice.

As for the lower light sand bed, that's exactly why I chose the 15 high, so I could keep the SPS up top, and the softies in the bottom.

When you say 12 LEDs should be enough, do you mean 12 daylight, or are actinics included there?

I think you may be fairly interested in looking at this article by Dr. Joshi which compared the supposed "best" of the newer forms of lighting: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature2 I don't like his bulb choice for the halide, though, as that would have been a big deciding factor as far as PAR and the reflector could've been better. He was using fairly high PAR T5 lamps, as well as top-notch reflectors, though.

[AquatiCreations]

I think you may be fairly interested in looking at this article by Dr. Joshi which compared the supposed "best" of the newer forms of lighting: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature2 I don't like his bulb choice for the halide, though, as that would have been a big deciding factor as far as PAR and the reflector could've been better. He was using fairly high PAR T5 lamps, as well as top-notch reflectors, though.

Thank you for the read, from the data represented on the tables, it still seems as though MH, and T5 have the highest PAR values, so would this suggest that Metal Halides are still the best choice for reef lighting?

There is a fixture that I have been looking at http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+15489&pcatid=15489

Would this fixture be a good choice for my application, and if so what wattage would be the best choice?

[Amphiprion]

Actually, all things considered, LED and T5 are pretty much equivalent in this particular instance. I know some DIY fixtures can be even brighter. That being said, MH is still the most intense option to date, especially the higher wattages and lower color temperature lamps.

That being said, the 150w watt lamp should be ideal for your application/needs, unless you'll be dealing with organisms that need or prefer immense amounts of light.

[AquatiCreations]

I just thought of something as well, my local hardware store sells LED floodlights, would it be possible to use one of those clamp on work fixtures like http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Designers-Edge-E-245-Incandescent-Clamp-Portable-Work-Light/1/000/005/074/484/507448414.jpg



(http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Designers-Edge-E-245-Incandescent-Clamp-Portable-Work-Light/1/000/005/074/484/507448414.jpg)And make a Diy Pendulum fixture?
(http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Designers-Edge-E-245-Incandescent-Clamp-Portable-Work-Light/1/000/005/074/484/507448414.jpg) (http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Designers-Edge-E-245-Incandescent-Clamp-Portable-Work-Light/1/000/005/074/484/507448414.jpg)

[Amphiprion]

You could use that fixture, but I doubt the floods will be sufficient. If you want to use a standard fixture, check the lamps HERE (http://www.nanocustoms.com/product_info.php?cPath=9_30&products_id=213). They are a bit pricey, but they are nice little intense lamps. They are a bit harder to deal with, especially if you get a lens with an angle that is too narrow. I would think that 2 80 degree optic lenses would likely be sufficient for your smaller tank. Higher light corals closer to the lamp, lower ones elsewhere.

[skillful abbot]

I have been using LeColt Lotus LEDs 10.4 watt ones over my 90cm tank. I bought them over time during a 6 month period. They are inexpensive and extremely bright. I just bought my third one fof 70 bucks from Yahoo auction. I highly recommend them. I do not know their availibity outside of Japan, however.

Here is the maker site. They range from 70 to 120 bucks converting from Yen to dollars. The site says 21,000 yen, but thats the 'makers' price. You'll never see these sold in shops for that much.

http://www.kamihata.co.jp/light/l_1005.html

[AquatiCreations]

Thanks for the replys guys, the pendulum idea is most likely the option I will be exploring,I like the lower upfront price, and that I won't need to replace a bulb for quite some time, from what I've read the one's from nano customs are very promising I might just buy one when they get more of the 20k in stock.

Abbot I will do some searching and see if I can't find a U.S. retailer, thanks for the heads up!

[Amphiprion]

I considered them for a while for my new tank, but I couldn't pass up the deal on the halide (well, both deals). I was able to get more intensity out of the halide for the same cost, which ended up being better for the seagrass I'm growing.

[AquatiCreations]

While stumbling through the internet, I also came upon some T8 LED tubes, I have some old strip lights... could this be a possibility, and since the tubes are only around 7w I'd have to change the ballast correct?

http://www.ledlight.com/t12-t8-led-tube-light-2-foot-7-watt.aspx

[DoctaQ]

leds in tubes are gimmickey

my personal rule for leds is that if it doesnt need a heatsink its not powerful

12 leds total, assuming a 20 inch footprint, 6 white 6 blue

the 5 leds housed in a par38, either from sunpark or nanocustoms or ecoxotic are powerful, however you will need two, which will match up in terms of price to a diy for that size.