when do you use salt?

[Lauren]

I've just been turned on by the wonders of aquairum salt. How often do you all use it? Just when you have something that needs treating? When you introduce new fish? Or on a regular basis?

[JSchmidt]

About the only time I use salt is to treat ick... very infrequently.

What are the 'wonders' that you refer to?

Jim

[Lauren]

first wonder I have discovered: recharges water softening pillow

[JSchmidt]

Here's a great resource that talks about salt at length. All facts and no hype! It's the Skeptical Aquarist!

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

RobertTR also has written a great article on salt:

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/salt.html

Must reading for anyone contemplating salt use in FW aquaria!

Enjoy!

Jim

[shewlett]

A different take on adding salt to freshwater aquariums is presented in this link:

http://www.fishyou.com/saltwater/salt.html

This topic has come up recently on this thread:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22228&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I think it depends on the fish you are keeping as to whether using aquarium salt will be beneficial, inconsequential, or harmful. It also depends on the dose.

[kveeti]

I would take anything that FishyYou site says with a grain of salt (no pun intended). Even if some info might be true, there so much misinformation, and left out information, on that site, that it really should make you skeptical.

Just the first 3 I looked at (and note, I had this site picked out before the salt link above):

Activated Carbon – Activated Carbon should not be used in your aquarium because it practically "uncycles" your tank… Activated Carbon causes a chain reaction that practically undo an established aquarium. When first used in an aquarium, it immediately start absorbing ammonia (+ other elements we will not mention). Without ammonia, first stage bacteria starves to death.

Cycling a fish tank (fishy) - Water changes are played down: Day 5… During this time of maximum ammonia… Don't change the water if not absolutely necessary. and Day 14… Nitrite levels has climbed to reach the maximum levels. Again, fish in the tank will start to show stress. During this time, partial water changes can be made but I don't need to tell you now, change less than 20%

Fishless Cycling – No mention of nitrates and a complete water change before adding your fish.

[JSchmidt]

I found the vague and unsupported claim "Salt can kill 77% of all parasites found in water !" particularly persuasive...

:shake:

Jim

[shewlett]

Perhaps you'll find this link more persuasive:

http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/waterchemistry.htm

Sonnier is an internationally known and respected breeder of bettas and this quote is from the above link: "I also use a marine salt formulation to supply electrolytes and trace elements." He is one of many betta breeders who do so.

Personally I thought the previous link I cited did a reasonable job of explaining why salt is used in some applications. I agree that the 77% figure is worthless unless referenced to a legitimate controlled study. As to misinformation on other parts of the site, well most extensive sites or forums will contain some of that, however that does not invalidate the good information.

As I indicated in my previous post I think the merits of using salt depends on the species and the dose under consideration.

JSchmidt & kveeti, perhaps you'd be willing to post some scholarly research (something other than a knee-jerk response) as to why to use of salt in fresh water aquariums should be universally condemned?


:D

[OrionGirl]

Marine salt is much different than the stuff sold as Aquarium salt.

I use salt only for medicating a specific group of problems. I do not think it should be used all the time since a) few fish benefit from salt. Some live bearers, and brackish fish come from waters that are hard and mildly brackish--in which case using a marine salt hardens the water, boosts pH, and simulates a more native environment. b) I don't think many people who prophalactically salt there tanks make use of a refractometer, or even a hydrometer, to track how much salt is actually in the tank--and that seems like poor maintenance to me. c) For other fish, who come from low TDS water, adding salts will not be beneficial, nor simulate their native waters.

As with so many things, there are arguments on both sides. The usual claim is "Well, an expert breeder does it, so I should". I doubt most people's setups are similar to a breeders--I know mine certainly are not. Therefore, this comparison is invalid, IMO. The claim that some one has salted the tank for years without a problem is no more proof than the counter claim that I've never salted my tank--no problems. What is comes down to for me is that the addition of salt to all waters is not logical, and can be detrimental to some animals.

[OrionGirl]

Originally posted by shewlett

JSchmidt & kveeti, perhaps you'd be willing to post some scholarly research (something other than a knee-jerk response) as to why to use of salt in fresh water aquariums should be universally condemned?
:D

You do the same. The claim on that website that the salt is used (without a dose recomendation) to supply electrolytes and trace elements is specific to highly filtered water--in other words, most of us know that RO water should be treated to buffer it to a stable level. That has little to do with benefitting the fish.

[JSchmidt]

Where did I (or kveeti) post or even imply that the use of salt should be universally condemned? I didn't suggest that and I don't believe salt is useless, either.

I posted two links to articles that deal with the subject in detail, including references to sources that go into even more detail. Neither of these sources universally condemn the use of salt. They advocate for the targeted use of salt for specific situations.

I don't know much about bettas, so maybe they benefit from salt. I didn't see any mention of it on the page you linked, though, so it's hard to say anything about it. I didn't search the site or anything, though...

Lauren's original post presented an expectation that salt is some sort of wonder product that is universally useful. It does have uses in aquaria, but there are also a lot of myths, unsupported claims and plain old incorrect information about it that get circulated too ("kills 77% of all parasites!").

I'm not sure what you're referring to with your "knee-jerk" remark, but I don't think discussion of that is likely to be of interest to anyone, so I won't get into that.


Jim

[shewlett]

I'm not advocating "the addition of salt to all waters". As I've posted previously "I think it depends on the fish you are keeping as to whether using aquarium salt will be beneficial, inconsequential, or harmful. It also depends on the dose."

Sonnier is not the only betta breeder who uses aquarium salt, many others do. While the home hobbyist's setup and goals are obviously different than a large scale breeder's, the point is that it is unlikely that a serious breeder would introduce something harmful to his/her prize fish.

[shewlett]

OG, I'm not going to post a link to why the use of salt in freshwater aquariums should be universally condemned because I don't believe it should be. I will post this link:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM007

This quote is from the Summary section of the above link:

"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish. Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use, duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated."

[OrionGirl]

Unless you ignored a portion of my post, I never claimed it should be universally condemned either. I stated, as did Jim, Kveeti, and the references provided, that there are specific scenarios where salt is useful and beneficial. The specific statement I make in all of these cases is that people should understand what scenarios benefit from salt, and not believe it to be some universally needed additive, beneficial for all tanks and all fish. I do not support the use of Aquarium Salt, as there is no way of knowing exactly what is being added, nor what impacts it will have on your water chemistry. Adding it 'just because a breeder does' is poor maintenance, IMO.

I simply encourage you to post scientific data supporting your claim if you expect that from others.

[shewlett]

From OG Post:

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by shewlett

JSchmidt & kveeti, perhaps you'd be willing to post some scholarly research (something other than a knee-jerk response) as to why to use of salt in fresh water aquariums should be universally condemned?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You do the same. "

I took the above to suggest I post what I had suggested that JSchmidt and kveeti post.

I did in fact post a link to the U. of Florida paper. Way back at the start of this thread I posted a link to a much less involved take on the use of aquarium salt because in my estimation (perhaps erroneously) it was more suitable to the level of the original poster and I was trying to show that the use of aquarium salt is not a cut and dried issue where one size fits all.

In my opinion, following a highly regarded breeder's practices once some research has been done to see if said practice is applicable to the hobbyist's situation is not poor maintenance. The impacts on water chemistry can be ascertained by testing for salinity and other water parameters.

Since you are encouraging me to post links in support of my position that use of salt can be beneficial at times, here is another quote from the http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM007 link:

"Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be maintained in salt."

[OrionGirl]

And there's a big part of the problem with using salt in a FW tank--the levels of salt are very low, and without a refractometer, or a very accurate scale, there's really not a reliable way to measure levels that low. Hydrometers are within 1-2%, but that amount of error means you can't really rely on it for reading low levels.

Not to mention that I am very skeptical about the number of people who add salt and have any way of measuring it.

Still won't admit that no one's response included never using salt, huh?

[shewlett]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Still won't admit that no one's response included never using salt, huh?

Well, in a fairly recent post on another thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18381) on preventative medications you had the following to say: "Nope, and I don't add 'preventative' salt either."

Clearly, you and I have different takes on the use of salt in a freshwater aquarium. The general consensus (I've searched quite a bit) on the AC forums is that the use of salt as a preventative is at best a waste of time and money and is quite possibly detrimental. My opinion is different. I'm not going to bother to restate it. You will be happy to know that my bettas are thriving and that I have never used aquarium salt as a preventative measure on any other fish I have kept over the years. I have been fortunate (or lucky - I don't have a fully stocked research lab to track my every move) to have had many long lived and active fish over the years with very little in the way of disease to mar my enjoyment of the hobby. Does this prove anything? Nope, only a controlled experiment/research project does. But I am content in continuing along in my antedeluvian ways until solid research convinces me otherwise.

Case in point: many years ago I kept a small number of fishes in large planted tanks (one fish per tank) with air stones and no filters since I didn't want to mess around with maintaining the prevailing UGF of the time. I did lots of gravel siphoning/water changes which were easier then because chloramine hadn't been introduced to my local water supply ... I simply aged water in large buckets. The fish (Oscar, Jack Dempsey, Black Moor) all lived long active lives as they were all sole occupants of their tanks so each tank's bioload was not terribly large. It's been many years since I engaged in this practice but it did work. Today I keep much smaller fish in much smaller tanks and use HOB filters and I still do water changes. I became convinced that good filtration was essential and once HOB filters became common filter maintenance became something I was willing and able to deal with. Perhaps some day a university lab will do a long term study on the mortality and longevity of bettas in various amounts of added salinity and will conclude that on average that no preventative salt is best; if so I'll stop using salt.

[Lauren]

wow, quite the debate I started. :p

I'll use one of my tanks as an example. Seeing that Oniongirl mentioned that salt can be used to add electrolytes to water that has been through RO, this is something of interest to me.

20g planted tank with: 7 rasboras, 6 white clouds, 4 gold barbs, 3 cory cats, 1 chinese algae fish and 2 stray cardinal tetras that I cannot catch to remove (should be in the 10g).

natural water of my area: hardness... off the chart at 300-350ppms. PH a stable 8.2. Being tired of dealing with the impossible water, I started buying RO water as an easier way of getting the hardness down than pillows. Would salt be advantageous for me to use?

EDIT: just read through some of the links. I suposs I shouldn't due to the cories.

[OrionGirl]

Lauren - you'd probably be better off just mixing the RO water with your tapwater. This way the current conditions will just be diluted, not as drastic a change. Although honestly, unless you are having problems with the fish that can't be the result of anything else, there's little reason to change the tank conditions anyway.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Lauren - you'd probably be better off just mixing the RO water with your tapwater. This way the current conditions will just be diluted, not as drastic a change. Although honestly, unless you are having problems with the fish that can't be the result of anything else, there's little reason to change the tank conditions anyway.

Once I get the stray cardinals out I want to get some dwarf goruamies. I'm worried that the hard water will hurt them. Plus, I have another tank with tetras, the cardinals started dying (which is why they were placed in the 20g), and I'm near positive it was because of the water conditions. I'll start mixing the RO water with my tap water. Fish that like soft water are so difficult, I can't wait to get my malawi tank set up.

The salt has been retired from use for the pillow, since I started with the RO. I guess I'll set it aside for a rainy (and dieses filled) day.