Clownfish keep dying. why? [Archive]

Plague

08-24-2010, 10:43 PM

First off I'd like to say I'm a freshwater guy and only have a basic knowledge of marine fish.

I decided to post this for my best friend since he is too proud to admit defeat and ask for help. He has a 10g nano reef tank set up. Using a AquaClear 70 mod he learned online, he has a refugium of some sort with cheeto (i think it's called that). He has two shrimp, a cleaner shrimp (skunk shrimp I believe?) and a peppermint shrimp. Both were juveniles when purchased and get along fine. He also has a lot of snails, 8 or so margarita snails and 2 nassarius snails. About 14 pounds of live rock. Sorry if this isn't detailed enough this is all from memory.

Now on to the main point, he has killed a total of 12 different clownfish. Every time I've supported him and personally gone with him to the LFS to hand pick the fish, but every time we get the fish, they end up dying from illness. We tried drip acclimation, some other type where you add a cup of tank water every now and then, even dripped acclimated over night. His clowns ALWAYS end up getting some kind of illness whether it be a severe case of Ick, mouth fungus, head in the hole disease, clown fish disease, and so on. The guy looks like he is running a doctors desk at his home since he has so many meds. Are we doing something wrong? He always does water changes and using AquaVitro products to help with water quality.

Has it something to do with the LFS? Or does he have the worst luck ever? We quarantined 8/12 fish and always buy pairs.

:help:

I would like to add that I've owned freshwater fish for 6 years and currently run a well stocked 55gallon tank and I have never had problems with fish illness. He just recently started only 3 months ago. The tank is well cycled and he had a hair algae problem with which he dealt with by building the refugium.

Ace25

08-24-2010, 11:22 PM

Could be a problem with the LFS.. or could be that he is "loving the fish to death" by dosing extra stuff/meds in the tank when he shouldn't. There really shouldn't be anything needed for a simple small clownfish tank other than water changes. Not sure which of the AquaVitro line would have any positive effect on clownfish.. but overdosing any of the products in that line can stress out fish. One would think the shrimp would kick the bucket before clownfish though because shrimp are more sensitive.

When you QT the fish, what meds if any where used? I would probably go with just copper meds in a QT/Hospital tank, but also test copper levels at least 2x a day with a good reliable test kit. You have to be right on with copper to make it effective and not go overboard.

Plague

08-25-2010, 7:14 AM

By quarantine I mean that we've had to put the fish in a separate bucket due to illness. He hasn't properly quarantined any fish to try to fix an illness that isn't there. All the clown fish we've gotten have gotten some kind of illness. We've gone to 6 different stores, even bought from a petco. We've gotten from true perculias, to oscellaris, to false perculias, maroons, fire dartfish. They all just get some sort of illness. I'm wondering if there is something lurking in his tank that causes all of this? The only Aquavitro product he is using is the water conditioner btw.

Ace25

08-25-2010, 9:39 AM

So, if your using water conditioner like Alpha, then your probably not using RO or RO/DI water, right? Could certainly be something in the water supply since there are 1000's of unknowns when it comes to tap water.

Plague

08-25-2010, 10:34 AM

I'm using tap water for my own aquariums though. All my fish would be dead to no? He initially started the tank with RO/DI water bought from the store. I mean I find it hard to believe that RO water is that crucial to maintaining marine fish.

Ace25

08-25-2010, 11:36 AM

Believe it...

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 1:12 PM

It could be something with the water supply, but honestly shrimp and stuff usually go first. However, shrimp and snails can sometimes tolerate higher levels of nitrates, nitrites and ammonia than the fish, and possibly differing pH and salinity levels.

So first of all, what are his water parameters? What is his pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates? What is his salinity? And what is he measuring his salinity with, and has he tried measuring with different equipment?

It's unlikely to be the stores stock if he's bought that many from so many different places.

If everything measures ok, then I'd suggest switching to RO water.

Plague

08-25-2010, 2:10 PM

His ph is at 8.2 parameters are fine and has some nitrates. Salinity is usually at 1.024 and he uses instant oceans hydrometer. He once took his water to the store to get it measured there and they reported a lower specific gravity though the guy said their hydrometer was very old. He never used carbon in his tank and recently read that if enough bio material builds up in his tank it can be dangerous. I forgot exactly what it was but the symptoms of having it matched up. He said he always wondered why it looked like there was also soap in his water since he usually had bubbles on the top of the tank. So 4 days ago he added activated carbon to his Aquaclear mod.

I told him just make it easy on everyone and switch to brackish already =P

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 3:06 PM

The instant ocean hydrometers are nearly always incorrect. Some of them are off significantly. Mine was reading 1.024 when my refractometer read 1.017. So if his salinity is actually way lower than it reads that could stress clownfish due to the fact that they're reef fish which are used to a higher stable salinity. He really needs to get a refractometer or something in order make sure his salinity is actually correct.

The bubbles on top of the water may just be due to organic waste in the water. Similar to how a skimmer works, if there's some type of protein the movement of the water will stir it up and bring it to the top. Also similar to the "sea foam" you see in the ocean. Though there is the possibility that his tapwater is contaminated with some type of surfactant that may be harmful to marine fish. In that case it would be likely his inverts wouldn't be healthy either though.
If he does have the presence of something in has tapwater carbon may help, but he should really switch to RO. Otherwise he's going to have to run carbon on his water change water every single time he mixes it for a water change, BEFORE he adds it to the tank, and HOPE that it removes whatever is causing the issues.

As far as biomaterial buildup in the tank, he should be preventing that by doing water changes, and also his macroalgaes will remove some of that.

Plague

08-25-2010, 3:35 PM

So you are saying that there is a possibility that his salinity is very low and is causing heavy stress to the fish, lowering their immune system and causing all these illnesses?

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 3:43 PM

So you are saying that there is a possibility that his salinity is very low and is causing heavy stress to the fish, lowering their immune system and causing all these illnesses?

Yes. Not only that but the salinity level effects their slimecoat production.

And what his water temperature?

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 3:49 PM

I am with Ace... And River on the Tap water ...lord knows what can be in that from day to day.

Also the scene you describe sounds like a mess. You are aware adding all that to the display will soak into it's surroundings? The medicines is what I mean...

You also mention he doesn't run carbon...well after all that dosing of this and that with no testing...and no carbon used to pull out all the stuff...you have a toxic soup going of meds.

I personally think you need to sit down ...Test the tap water...test the tank water and give us some numbers.

Low salinity is actually a favorable environment for Fish over the Corals...only when its significantly low is it a problem. Not saying this is the case here.

Also all that dosing could mean he could be still in cycles ..thanks to killing off the bio in the tank...hard to say.

My clowns have gone through hell and back and never had died...seems 12 dead clowns screams something is very wrong in that tank. The live rock may have sponged up some things and is leeching it back into the water.

TESTS please....really.
Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia, PH 8.0 kits (use end of photo period for proper readings), Salinity test at the store with refractormeter, Alk , calc

Also please test the tap water for kicks just to compare....

As ace said Copper test that water...

Post the results please I really like to see the results...and see if we can help him out at the same time.

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 3:52 PM

Yes. Not only that but the salinity level effects their slimecoat production.

And what his water temperature?

You may want to give him some low salinity numbers that are OK I dont have my book in front of me....nor do I run my stuff low due to Reef.

It is actually ok to run slightly lower than Reefs salinity ...worst case Ill grab my book and get the numbers for you all.

Plague

08-25-2010, 3:55 PM

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 4:04 PM

heh getting the numbers from his tank will be near impossible. He'll scold at me and set me on fire if he finds out I did this thread. Like I said he is too proud to accept defeat. I'll see what I can come up with.

BTW all the meds were administered in a separate 5 gallon bucket, never in the main tank. Only thing ever used in the main tank was melafix and pimafix.

Well hand him this:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Though its reef specific advice .... It is still a guide post for you or him.
Reefs need a little more scrutiny on some things vs Fish only. It should still act as a guide post.

here is another which actually posts some numbers targeted for Fish only:
http://www.saltwater-aquarium-online-guide.com/water-parameters.html

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 4:17 PM

Low salinity is actually a favorable environment for Fish over the Corals...only when its significantly low is it a problem. Not saying this is the case here.You cannot generalize like that. Some fish species are ok for fairly low salinity, some are not. Clownfish are ok for lower salinity than many corals, but not for salinity as low as my instant ocean hydro was giving me (1.017).

Clownfish should optimally be kept in salinity between 1.023-1.026, and it should be fairly stable. They may be ok in slightly lower and slightly higher, but not by more than a couple of points.

The temperature should be around 78-80, IMO, though as stated in most information I've seen 75-84 is ok. Anything lower than that or higher than that would definitely not be good.

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 4:29 PM

You cannot generalize like that. Some fish species are ok for fairly low salinity, some are not. Clownfish are ok for lower salinity than many corals, but not for salinity as low as my instant ocean hydro was giving me (1.017).

Clownfish should optimally be kept in salinity between 1.023-1.026, and it should be fairly stable. They may be ok in slightly lower and slightly higher, but not by more than a couple of points.

The temperature should be around 78-80, IMO, though as stated in most information I've seen 75-84 is ok. Anything lower than that or higher than that would definitely not be good.

You must have been posting and didn't notice. I had asked you to provide some salinity numbers that are low but not too low for him. Since I made it clear I didn't remember.

I also then took it upon myself to get him some numbers to use to act as a guide post.

I don't see what the problem here is with my generalized answer since you proved my point that you can have lower salinity numbers than the 1.024 we normally would go for.

PS. I don't take Hydro meter readings in here seriously,since they are very unreliable. So OP...do try to get it tested by the local store by a refractormeter ...it's the only way to get a accurate reading.

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 4:30 PM

I also forgot to mention that the storebought fish are often wildcaught. They are not necessarily as hardy as tankbreds. If the fish has been caught from an environment with a specific salinity/temperature and transferred several times to tanks with differing parameters that is going to cause issues with their health. And then add on top of that his tank parameters may not match the fish store OR where the fish was caught, it might cause issues.

So you should buy clowns from a store that knows where the fish were attained and knows what salinity they should be kept at, and also acclimates them properly. (not just having fish shipped in and dropping them into a differeing salinity than the bag they came out of, which some stores do. Or acclimating them to too low a salinity. Some stores keep their marine system at a fairly low salinity to save on salt, and this is detrimental to some species of fish.)
He also needs to know the difference between his salinity and the salinity the fish are being kept in at the store. If it's significantly different then it can take a fairly long acclimation process.

In addition do not buy fish from stores that just got them shipped in. These fish have been acclimated to the stores tanks recently and then to acclimate them to your own tank right afterward is stressful. Not to mention, you don't know if the fish are in good health due to the fact that they haven't been at the store long.

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 4:32 PM

I don't see what the problem here is with my generalized answer since you proved my point that you can have lower salinity numbers than the 1.024 we normally would go for.I assumed you'd read my post which mentioned the 1.017 number I got from my refractometer and you were implying a salinity that low was ok for marine fish since they don't need as high a salinity as corals. Because when I mentioned salinity I was referring to the fact that a hydrometer could be reading significantly higher than the actual salinity.

So it was apparently a misunderstanding on both our parts. :)

I have no issue with your assertion that marine fish can be kept in a lower salinity than corals generally need. I kept my fish only tanks around 1.022.

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 4:40 PM

I assumed you'd read my post which mentioned the 1.017 number I got from my refractometer and you were implying a salinity that low was ok for marine fish since they don't need as high a salinity as corals. Because when I mentioned salinity I was referring to the fact that a hydrometer could be reading significantly higher than the actual salinity.

So it was apparently a misunderstanding on both our parts. :)

I have no issue with your assertion that marine fish can be kept in a lower salinity than corals generally need. I kept my fish only tanks around 1.022.

Where I was coming from was that the studies showed the slightly lower salinity environments were actually better for the fish. While Reef Tanks, prefered the higher end salinity readings.

Without having the numbers at the time I couldn't be specific.

Now that I have them and remember... Fowlr at 1.020+ was actually good for them over the 1.026 is all I was getting at. Let me emphasize though..I think personally 1.020 is too low to me...1.022 is low as I would personally go.

I really wish they would pull those Hydro's off the market. So unreliable.

Plague

08-25-2010, 4:58 PM

Yeah I got off the phone with him and had a big conversation. We both realized that most of the time we would completely forget to ask if it was wild caught or tank bred. The thing is, most of the fish stores around here are horrible. The only place we can trust is petco but they are closing down their saltwater tanks so we can't buy from there. At this point he doesn't trust his tank or fish enough to buy from online. He decided to quarantine his next fish in his quarantine tank for a month and let w/e is in his tank die from not having hosts. He is going to use copper in his quarantine to help. He just recently got "pods" w/e that is and says that is a good sign.

We would get the salinity measured but none of the stores use a refractormeter. He has a master test so he knows his levels are fine. The only problem he has is his inability to keep his ph stable. It usually moves from 7.8 to 8.2. I did convince him to only get one clown at a time until he establishes it before killing more fish. lol

ToeJam

08-25-2010, 5:41 PM

The only place we can trust is petco
:hitting: HE did not just say that!?!??!?!??

As for PH that's another list of questoins.

1. IS he testing at odd times? PH should be tested at the near end of photo periods (lights off end times)

2. IS the top of his tank sealed by glass cover?

3. IS the room its in a stuffy place with great insulation.

Most common problem off the top of my head is air circulation the tank resides in. Sometimes combo of having a glass cover and lack of fresh air exchange for the tanks water on the surface.

I have read some posters in the past in here opening up some windows to let some fresh air in to rooms. (having a house sealed up tighter than frogs booty).

Hard to say at this time.

I really wish I could see the list of equipment on that tank..and even pictures if you can sneak one in with your phone.

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 6:00 PM

Where I was coming from was that the studies showed the slightly lower salinity environments were actually better for the fish. While Reef Tanks, prefered the higher end salinity readings.

I would have to see specific studies to make a determination on the data. I know that some diseases/parasites are less able to survive at lower salinities, and sometimes lowering the salinity temporarily can raise slimecoat production, thus helping fight off some parasites/diseases, but I don't know that keeping marine fish in a lower salinity long term is more healthy across all species of fish. Sounds like the statement that a neutral pH of 7.0 is the best for all tropical fish, which is not true, and also tends to ignore other water parameters.

I've seen studies on specific fish species who live in very stable environment, that note issues with osmoregulation when kept in lower or higher salinities than their natural environment. So I would be hesitant to apply information about lower salinity-vs-higher salinity being healthier to ALL marine fish species.

But like I said, I have not seen the specific studies that you mentioned.

He just recently got "pods" w/e that is and says that is a good sign.

Copepods/amphipods are a sign that there is sufficient food for them. Not necessarily a sign of a healthy tank. Copepods can live in some pretty tough environments when given sufficient food.

I'm not saying that they aren't generally beneficial, which they are, just that their presence doesn't mean his tank is sufficiently healthy to house fish. We already know that if something in the water is harming the fish it's not been harming crustaceans (which is what copepods and amphipods are) because he has shrimp. So their presence really doesn't tell us much about that situation.

We would get the salinity measured but none of the stores use a refractormeter. He has a master test so he knows his levels are fine. The only problem he has is his inability to keep his ph stable. It usually moves from 7.8 to 8.2.

The pH swings aren't good, but it's unlikely they're causing all his issues. And pH going up and down isn't uncommon especially with the presence of macroalgaes, and especially if they are not on a 24 hr, or reverse light cycle (main lights on during day, refugium lights on at night).

He also needs to be checking his alkalinity, especially with macros in the tank. But even without them he should be checking. You cannot ignore alkalinity in a marine aquarium.

And he's going to have to get a decent refractometer if he wants to know his actual salinity. The run of the mill hydrometers just are not going to give an accurate reading, and possibly a drastically incorrect one.

Ace25

08-25-2010, 6:01 PM

RiVerfishgirl

08-25-2010, 6:17 PM

pH going from 7.8-8.2 is completely normal and nothing to worry about. Too many people stress over pH and 99% of the time it is a non issue. It takes a lot of effort/neglect for pH to become a problem. I go 7.8-8.2 every day.. some times I can go 7.6-8.4 in a day and still no issues with "difficult" fish and SPS corals.

Same here. It's nearly impossible to maintain a perfectly stable pH, and not generally necessary either.

Then again if he's not checking after the lights have been turned off for awhile it may be dropping more than that and he doesn't know it.

But honestly, I think it's going to be hard to pinpoint the issue when he's using tapwater, because it could contain so much stuff we don't test for. If the tank was maintained using strictly RO water then we could at least eliminate that as the issue.

Plague

08-25-2010, 6:22 PM

Well he has always checked the ph with lights on, at least when I'm at his house. Not sure about when I'm not there. He usually runs his daylight bulbs for 8 hours and the super purple, super blues for 10. The refugium he built runs during the night when the tank lights are off and for some hours when the daylight bulbs are on. Not quite sure on that one.

ToeJam

08-27-2010, 11:30 AM

Let's steer back on track...

Hearing the tests are fine without numbers isn't good enough for me. Far too often we get this in forums and when we see the tests ...things are not as good as we were told. So that is the reason I asked for actual test results.

How old is this tank again?

There is something obviously wrong with the water...what is the questing.

To lose 12 fish that are known to be hardy ...that is just wow. If the conditions of the water were "Fine" .... one of these 12 should have survived at the very least.

YOu also say the water source is the tap... has that been tested?

Just to eliminate this source, why not ask him to make a batch of RO/DI water and do a 80% water change. Be as exact as you can with amount of water and scoops of salt. I have found most of the time its been on the money for me with instant ocean salt. Salinity measured out perfect.

What I am trying to eliminate is current water conditions...just remove as much as possible...completely change it out for something you know for sure is a pure clean water source with as accurate salinity as possible in this situation.

Wait a few days, and try putting a Damsel in for now. If that Damsel dies, thats some scary stuff cause then I am stumped. It's hard to cause a Damsel to die =).

jasonG75

08-27-2010, 2:26 PM

:hitting: HE did not just say that!?!??!?!??

I think he did.... That's why I am a FIRM very FIRM believer is beginners NOT attempting nano setups, they ARE VERY hard to maintain. 12 freaking Clown, after the 3rd I think I would have sought advice.

:omg:

Plague

08-27-2010, 5:20 PM

I think he did.... That's why I am a FIRM very FIRM believer is beginners NOT attempting nano setups, they ARE VERY hard to maintain. 12 freaking Clown, after the 3rd I think I would have sought advice.

:omg:

The only reason I said that is because the LFS down here are horrible in terms of keeping their tanks. He doesn't want to buy online because he doesn't feel the cost of shipping is worth it. Petco down here does a pretty good job of keeping there tanks.

He is going to let the tank run empty for a month or 2 with only the invertebrates to let w/e is in the tank die. Like I said, he is unsure if it is him or the horrible stores here. We went to a farther one yesterday and most of their clowns were sick and this was a new batch. It varied from breathing heavy, to not being able to fight current, visible ick, open wounds. If I could I would take pictures of these stores to see why even I don't believe it is all his fault, but it would be a huge gas investment.

Either way the tank isn't going to be touched for some time just because of all the money he has lost paying for clowns. Personally, I think the first batch of clowns left something in the tank that is deadly and he hasn't left the tank empty long enough for w/e is inside to die. Did I mention one of his maroon's "jumped into another dimension"? We both are convinced that the body is still in the tank because we couldn't find it in his room for over a week. We sifted through the sand the 2nd day but couldn't find a body. All his parameters are at zero except nitrates which were last at 15ppm. He hasn't been able to test KH because he has no method of doing it.

Our tap water has the following numbers (note it's been raining so much down here the numbers are all funky right now):
chlorine: undetectable (our water sources uses chlorine not chloramine)
ammonia: undetectable
nitrite: .5ppm
nitrate: undetectable
GH: 75ppm
KH: 120ppm
ph: 8.4 or higher

RiVerfishgirl

08-27-2010, 10:40 PM

The fact that your tapwater has nitrites is worrysome, because that means it possibly has some type of runoff causing it, which leads me to believe there could be other contaminants.

What city do you live in? I should be able to look up what the numbers are on a lot of other stuff, and whether or not there are other contaminants listed. But either, way I'd be switching to RO/DI before adding anything else.

[Edit: I assume you're in Miami, from your profile, but if you're in a township or outlying area or something I'll need that info to look anything up]

Plague

08-28-2010, 9:23 AM

I live in Hialeah. The only contaminate here that worries me is uranium and lead =P we have small traces of it.

RiVerfishgirl

08-28-2010, 12:17 PM

I live in Hialeah. The only contaminate here that worries me is uranium and lead =P we have small traces of it.

The normal water quality report doesn't list everything, it just lists things required to test for by the EPA.
Uranium and lead are probably present in extremely small amounts (too little to fail the EPA standard), so it definitely wouldn't cause the clownfish problems since the ocean generally has these contaminants already present.

Clownfish are, however, sensitive to copper I know for sure. But so are inverts, so if you had high levels of copper they shouldn't be alive.

jasonG75

08-30-2010, 10:03 AM

Wow I am glad the petco stores in my area arent this bad... I have 3 within 35 miles and all of their sw tanks look really nice.

ToeJam

08-31-2010, 4:45 PM

Wow I am glad the petco stores in my area arent this bad... I have 3 within 35 miles and all of their sw tanks look really nice.

It really is not Petco in general that is the problem. It is the staff they hire.

My local petco had a staff member who was managing fish that had their own nano and sps tanks. So they knew their stuff.

They always complained about how management wouldn't let them do what was proper to keep tanks good.(district managers) So it was a uphill battle just to do things basic and proper in maintenance for them. She even went as far as refusing to sell fish that came in for 24 hours till she was told she can't do it. So she put a warning up instead. She has now left that store and works for a real SW fish store.

Last time I checked they had a FW manager in charge of the salt. The coral tank 80gallonish was covered in redslime and most everything near dead.

I have since had a talk with the assistant manager there and we got them up to speed on maintenance...its still bad but not as bad.

Thats it for my petco story.

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http://www.barrierreefaquariums.com/productCart/pc/home.asp

They do online orders! =)