Persistant green algae problem

[nanahachi]

Hi all

I've been having persistant problems with algae ever since moving to Los Angeles a few months ago (I was previously in the Bay Area) and I'm hoping you guys can offer some help. [I do want to note that I am doing a search here at AC for help...but I wanted to make my own thread as well :p]

There is green algae growing like mad on the glass (err acryllic) and on the leaves of my annubias. A week and a half ago I removed all of my plants, pruned them, and tried to gently scrub off as much algae as possible. I also rearranged the tank a little since I wasnt happy with its previous appearance. I went away for a few days, and now the leaves are (heavily) covered with algae again.

I will try to post pics in the next few days (I need to borrow a cable from a friend for my camera), so for now I'll to describe the situation in words:

20g long, freshwater planted
6 annubias, 3 amazon sword, 3 or 4 java fern
5 amano shrimp
5 white clouds
JBJ Compact flourescent 65W
Hagen CO2 cannister thing with ladder diffuser
XP1 cannister filter
AC200 HOB

I am dosing with Flourish, No Salt, baking soda, Fleet, Seachem EQ....(I'm probably forgetting a few things)...but basically the stuff I wrote up in the Sticky on Nutrients.

I am going to do a water change tonight, so I will report my levels when I'm done (although I only have a few test kits). Please let me know what else I should share to give you all a better idea of my situation.

Right now my plants are pearling like crazy, yet for the first time, several of my annubias have yellow and dying leaves (??!!!). I cant believe it. It's gotten to the point where I am ready to give up on having a planted tank, and just transport my awesome little amanos to a 10G without plants, and turn my 20g into a simple crab playground (a friend will be giving me a Thai crab and Rainbow crab). But I really don't want to close shop on this planted tank, if i can possibly help it. So please please share your ideas.

Thanks, as always you guys and gals are great!

[djlen]

Two things that strike me right off the bat. You don't mention dosing N and you are using an Aqua Clear filter.

What is you N ppm? Are you getting enough from tap water or did you just neglect to mention it? If you are not dosing it and it is low, I would discontinue the KCl or cut down on it a bit and start dosing KNO3 which will supply both K and N. You have a small fish load and are probably lacking in N especially. Test that and see.
Why are you using an AC along with a cannister? Your XP1 will probably do an excellent job for you in a 20 gal. and does not gas off the CO2 you are providing. The AC seems unnecessary and does waste CO2.
So give us your kH, pH and also your N ppm so we'll know your CO2ppm and N content.

Don't give up on your planted tank......change in location is bound to bring changes in parameters. You'll get to the bottom of it.

Besides, we need someone to write our 'stickies' for us:sad.

Len

[promethean_sprk]

When I moved this summer from sunnyvale to fremont I had a bunch of fish die (they were hiding under an abalone shell that fell flat and suffocated them!), and also an explosion of algae. It could be that the change in local water caused the delicate balance to go out of whack. Neglect due to having a baby shortly after moving also contributed.

I got it under control by:
A: Reducing light from 12hrs/day to 10hrs/day
B: Adding some hornwart to hoover up the nutrients
C: Adding algae eaters, SAE (4) and Kemps algae eaters (2).
D: More fertilizer, more water changes, and started using DI water from a TWP, which I recharge.

I think the SAE and reduced light made the biggest difference. I reduced the light and algae spread slowed greatly, then a month later adding the SAE resulted in the algae shrinking away to now nearly nothing on the plants. (still some clumps on the gravel)

My tank was pretty screwed up to start with, and only took a couple months to have it in great shape, so there's hope!

[nanahachi]

Len, long time. Its nice to see you're still active. I really need to keep coming here regularly again. Thanks for the advice, I'll get my levels shortly. Len, I never found any spectracide where I used to live, and I've forgotten all about it...I'll try to go find some this week. But how do I measure for N? My only kits are pH, KH, and NO3. I've been so out of the AC loop my mind has atrophied and I've forgotten all that I once knew...:(

Also, Im using my AC for pure Mechanical filtration, and the cannister strictly for Bio. My water is always super clear as a result. however, if the consensus becomes that I remove the AC, maybe I'll move it over to my new 10G (which may become a 20G if it will fit in my intended location).

Do you recommend any specific tests that I do on my local tap water? Feel free to school me like a newbie, b/c I really seem to have forgotten everything.

Promethean,
I'm just starting to research Siamese Algae Eaters (SAE), but I'll ask anyway: are they safe for plants? I had a pleco which wrecked real havoc with my tank not long ago.

It was recommended to my by an LFS up in the Bay Area to use DI water, but as a grad student, I'm fairly broke and DI water seemed like a headache. Is it? and is it expensive?

Thanks for the ideas guys, I'll report back soon.

**EDIT: I am also using Jobes tabs, in case that factors into this equation. thx:D

[Dennis Dietz]

NO3 is N. When we talk about N in palnted tank we generally are referring to nitrate(no3) If you are using Jobe's then you had a large source of N and P (phosphate) in your substrate. Disturbing them when you did your last major clean/prune I am sure added a lot of N and P to you water column thus leading to algae. A couple of water changes would bring the levels down a bit and help reduce the algae growth. You sould try to keep all of your nutirents in balance. Its hard I know. PLEASE dont give up. We need all the palnted tank folks we can get. Why are you dosing Fleet? Do you test for P? I would stop dosing the KCl. if you water is so soft hat you add baking soda to bring up the kH then you should be careful how much K you add to your tank. To much can cause Ca uptake problems. You want your nutrients to be around: N=5-7ppm, P=~.5ppm and traces. I wont go into specifics with the traces right now but flourish or flourish trace are good I have heard. SAE's will not harm plants. If ou can find real SAE they are worth their weight in.......well, algae killer thingies. Anyway. Hope this helps a little atleast.

Dennis Dietz

[nanahachi]

thanks for the good info Dennis. Very good points; however, my algae prob has persisted long before I uprooted my plants and thus the plant tabs, but I understand what you're saying.

Tonight did not go as planned, so my tank maintenance will have to wait until tomorrow. I will really try to get those levels up tomorrow. Dennis, no I don't currently test for P, should I pick up a test kit ASAP, or just wait til my next bigals order? Feel free to keep in the info coming.

thanks guys.

[plantbrain]

N-

You do not need to add baking soda, SeaChem Eq etc, nor do you ever need RO/DI water(soft water) for any plant that I am aware of.

LA water is fairly hard so adding KH/GH stuff is not needed.
So do a 50% water change and add:
1/4 teaspoon KNO3(2x aweek)
1 drop of Fleet(2-3x aweek)
5mls of flourish 2-3x aweek
Crank to the CO2 up HIGH, 20ppm to 30ppm.

Clean the algae, the filter, prune etc BEFORE you do the water change. Do not be afraid of back to back water changes to remove any gunk, detritus etc, attack algae.

Blackouts are often effective on fast growing algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[promethean_sprk]

SAE are great for algae control, but for them to be effective you have to change the conditions in the tank so the algae doesn't grow very fast, as they only eat so much/day. The less algae there is in the tank, the slower it can reproduce, so usually you'll see it gradually slow down, then reverse and then accelerate the decrease as it dissapears almost entirely. They are hard to find, but if you find them, not too expensive. Specialty shops want about $5 and petsmart sells them for 3.

I use DI water because I have angelfish and my tapwater has a ppm of 180-250. PH w/o co2 is something like 8. That's pretty hard/alkaline, so I like to cut it with the TWP just to present my fish and plants with a more natural water. Perhaps once I have the system perfected I'll be able to breed angels and some tetras or dwarf cichlids. Recharging the TWP involves using very strong sodium hydroxide and hydrocloric acid, which is kind of fun. It's amazing the crud that those rinse out of the resin (and didn't end up in the tank!). The waste looks like a barf bucket at a frat party when I'm done...

[nanahachi]

argh, its been one of those nights.

anyway, I just did a few quick tests, and my levels are:

my pH was pretty high(?) with the lights off ~ 7.4
KH of tap water = 3 degrees.
KH of tank water = 6 degrees
NO2 is non existent; I dont have a test for NO3, I was mistaken.

Tom, Promethean, thanks for the suggestions.
Tom, I don't know of a way to turn up the CO2, since it is just a sugar/yeast mix in a little cannister, which uses the Hagen diffuser/ladder contraption.
Also, I'm curious (since I'm having to relearn all this stuff) why I should stop using the Seachem EQ (for general hardness?), baking soda (to raise KH?), etc.
FYI, I've reduced my photoperiod to 7 hours.

Tomorrow I've scheduled some time to do that 50% water change, and will try to take some pics, since I now have the proper USB cable.

Should I resort to the bleach bath for my plants? I know i should be patient, but I really want a quick fix, because I'm starting to wuss out. :rolleyes: I dont have the funds for a CO2 tank system, and these days it's really hard for me to dedicate the time, effort and frustration to battling algae.

thanks!!

[djlen]

You really need to get the pH down. Your target pH should be at least 6.7 which would give you 20ppm CO2. You are now only holding CO2 of 4ppm.
A good start would be to lose the AC filter. It is gassing off the little CO2 that you are providing. Isn't there some way you can add a 2-liter bottle of DIY CO2 to improve your absorption?
Discontinue the KCl and add KNO3 in it's place which will dose plenty of K and N. Get a test kit for N.
Follow Tom's recipe for dosing and also his recommendation for water changes after pruning/scrubbing and general clean up.
You don't need the baking soda or the EQ. Your water is fine without either.
Yes, you can bleach bath them, but the blackout idea is a better way to go initially if you don't see improvement with the other changes. Bleach or blackouts will be useless without being ready to implement the KNO3 and increase the CO2, because the basic conditions of the tank will not change and the algae will re-occur.
The extra work you do now to balance your system will provide you with more free time later. That tank will not require much work once it's balanced.

Len

[nanahachi]

Len, maybe you just caught me in a good mood, but you've persuaded me to persist and try to make the tank work.

How long would you recommend i black the tank out? this might sound lame, but can i turn the light on for a short while to wake up the fish so that they can eat?

So, either I'll add a DIY 2liter for addtl CO2 or order another one of those Hagen kits from bigals since I need to order a N test kit anyway :)

thanks everyone, i really appreciate your help

(btw, pics will be uploaded tonight)

[nanahachi]

Len, maybe you just caught me in a good mood, but you've persuaded me to persist and try to make the tank work.

How long would you recommend i black the tank out? this might sound lame, but can i turn the light on for a short while to wake up the fish so that they can eat?

So, either I'll add a DIY 2liter for addtl CO2 or order another one of those Hagen kits from bigals since I need to order a N test kit anyway :)

thanks everyone, i really appreciate your help

(btw, pics will be uploaded tonight)

[djlen]

First, make sure you have all the elements mentioned above in place(KNO3 and extra CO2 ready to start) before doing the blackout.
Then do a 50% water change, turn off lights and CO2, raise your spray bars if applicable, and cover the tank for 2 days. Then do NOTHING!!! Resist the urge to peek at the fish.....resist the urge to feed the fish......they will be fine. Leave the tank covered and the lights off.
After 2 full days, lift the cover(double layer of trash bags or blankets) and do another 50%er. Again, resist the urge to feed and re-cover the tank for 2 more days. Then another large water change. You should see a real lessening or possibly a total loss of algae. It can't handle being starved like that. The plants will be fine as well as the fish.
Think of it as a vacation for yourself.....you needed the extra time anyway, right?. The fish will be fine for 4 days without food.
Vacation is over......start the CO2 after pruning away any yukkiness(like that word?) on the plants and cleaning up any other gunk and then performing one more large water change.
Start up your ferts. according to Tom's schedule above and keep checking your pH to monitor your CO2 absorption.
Hopefully this will do it.

Len

[nanahachi]

I'm trying to find some Spectracide Stump Remover, and get ready some extra CO2. But here's a glimpse at the ugliness that is my tank:

http://imageshack.us/files/algae-whiteclouds.JPG

http://imageshack.us/files/whole-algae.JPG

[promethean_sprk]

I was at home depot the other day and they didn't have spectracide stump remover, but they did have another brand like scotts or something. It was in several mm grains.

I didn't get it because I was unsure if some brands of stump remover had other added ingredients.

[nanahachi]

actually, I was wondering thing same thing. I'm not able to take the time to search AC right now, but maybe tonight I'll see what others have said. If anyone one knows the answer right off, however, please let us know.

thanks

[djlen]

I only have experience with Spectracide's. I know that Lowe's carries it. It's usually in the garden supply dept.
I have heard that there are other brands that are all KNO3, but also have heard that people have had problems with other ingredients in some. I would check the bottle for ingredients before buying or using them.

Also, a good source for it is Salt Petre, which some pharmacies carry. It is 100% KNO3.

Len

[nanahachi]

ok, I'm back from 6 days out of town.

Just did a 50% water change after scrubbing algae off the tank walls. I would start my black out now, however, I still havent found any KNO3.

As far as adding CO2, I'm about to order another Hagen CO2 system (don't cringe too hard, I dont have much space, and their diffusor & cannister seem to work well). So obviously I shouldnt start my blackout until the new one has arrived and I have tracked down the KNO3.

I'm wondering about O2 during the blackout: should I use my airpump 24/7 to keep the water oxygenated? Up until now, I have only had it on at night, when the plants weren't photosynthesizing (as I read about doing here at AC). So I'm wondering that now, without an HOB or the plants to give off O2, if I should have the air bubbles going all day & night.

thanks Len and everyone else for your help!

[djlen]

Running some extra air into the tank during the black-out is a good idea.
Get all your stuff in place so that you can implement them as soon as the covers come off.
Remember, the closer you can come to 25ppm/CO2 the better.

Len

[promethean_sprk]

I found this stuff at lowe's, other people on the net use it, so I decided to go with it. It's granulated instead of in prills, so it dissolves pretty fast. If I dump 1/4 tsp into the tank it's mostly dissolved before it hits the bottom.