Polypterus Senegalus in 40 Breeder? [Archive]

GoldLenny

09-19-2010, 7:23 PM

Temporary home while the fish are fry/juvis or permanent home?

Mongabay http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Polypterus_senegalus.html shows these fish grow to 16" and another reputable site, Badmans, shows them growing to 20".

Those profiles/care sheets suggest a minimum of a 45-55G tank or a 48" x 16" foot print for a single fish up to 12"... larger tank suggested as the fish grows.... but remember that a big fish can easily get stunted in an undersized tank if sufficient water changes are not done during their developmental life cycle.

For more than one, the 40G breeder would probably only work while the fish are fry/juvis and maybe up to 6" long... after that, I would move them to a larger tank.

Badman's page has this in their Maintenance section: "... They can be territorial to each other, but if they have their own space this will be minimized...."

Lillyan

09-19-2010, 7:52 PM

Ah, thanks. Guess they are off my list then.

I need another unusual or large fish that can be in a 40 breeder fully grown...
Ideas?

RiVerfishgirl

09-19-2010, 8:07 PM

Several sites way overexaggerate the size that senegals get to because they're either using max size information from fishbase (and the max size of 20" has NEVER EVER been seen by captive keepers - I'm not sure that recorded size wasn't possibly a mistake. The reference fishbase cites is WAY out of date.), or they're mixing them up with other species.

It is generally accepted that senegal bichirs almost never get over 12", and rarely to about 14", and it takes a very long time for them to grow over 8-10".

A 40g IMO is fine, at least for many years. It's very common to keep them in 55g tanks, and those are shorter front to back.

You can keep several together (given you keep water quality good). Territorial or not, they don't seriously fight with each other. In fact even in a large tank the majority of the time they are laying on top of each other.

As far as tank mates, stick with fish that can not fit in their mouth and are not aggressive.

GoldLenny

09-19-2010, 8:21 PM

Heather/Riverfishgirl,

I know what you are saying but then you have to wonder if the reason they never reach full size in home aquariums is due to stunting because they are being kept in undersized tanks from the start? It's a serious catch-22 situation so I always err on the side of caution and suggest a proper sized tank from the start. Would so-called slow-growing fish really grow slow if kept in a proper sized tank OR are they slow growing because of stunting? I don't know that there is enough evidence in the hobby of people keeping them in a BIG tank from the start to see just how fast they grow.

The same thing was said about goldfish for probably hundreds of years... "They only grow to the tank size or bowl size they are in"... without realizing the folks were seriously stunting their goldfish. If a goldfish is put in a proper sized home from the start, they will grow to 80% of their expected size in the first 1-3 years.. .meaning that common goldfish will be over 12" long in a year and 16" to 18" in a couple of years. I've seen this first hand with my own ponds. Fancy goldfish will also grow a LOT more in a proper sized home but obviously rarely get as large as common goldfish... although there is the exception with Bruce The Oranda who grew to 18" in just a few years. He lived his entire life in a nice BIG pond.

RiVerfishgirl

09-19-2010, 8:31 PM

No, it's not because of stunting. I understand your worry, but if you go over to MFK and read, a ton of people keep them and have for years, including people who are actual experts on Polypterus sp. (beblondie has several articles with info on them there). And there are many people who have kept them for many years with good water quality and they almost never reach over 12" max length, over 14" is pretty much unheard of and if anyone has one over that length I do not know about it and it would be considered a rarity.
As far as slow growth, they are very long lived fish and that is just their growth rate, water quality or not. Once they reach 8-10" they grow very slowly after that. Much like the fact that clown loaches grow to a certain size and then take many many years to reach their max size.

General consensus about the 20" max length referenced is that it's probably a mistake (was not actually a senegalus). The reference cited is from 1984 and that book (Check-list of the freshwater fishes of Africa - volume 1) has a ton of out of date information in it on various fish species. I don't think senegalus have been recorded at 20" in the wild by any recent sources. If you see anyone citing 20" as max length that information is always referenced from the book I mentioned above.

rainbowcharmer

09-19-2010, 8:38 PM

I kept 2 of these in a 55 gallon for 3 or 4 years with no issues. I do not know what they ended up in when I had to quit the hobby for a while - I gave them and the tank away at that time. They were around 9" or so each, and were doing very well. I'd really be OK with them in a 40 gal breeder simply because of the dimensions. Wider rather than taller like the 55 gallon. Honestly I think they'd be OK at least for a few years.

msjinkzd

09-19-2010, 8:51 PM

I actually think they woould do absolutely fine in that tank size for life.
They can be kept with fish that are larger than their mouth. A tight fitting lid is a must. They are not agressive, just opportunistic. They rarely reach over 12". A 40b is a great size because of its width.

Just Prince

09-19-2010, 8:53 PM

Sens only reach a max of 12" Ornates are the commonly sold Bichirs the reach 20" maybe. A 40 breeder is better for a Sen that a 55 because the 55 is only 12" deep where the 40 breeder is 18" deep. You'll get better info from the MFK Poly forum. I have a Sen that's going into a 40 breeder when it big enough. PM Msjinkzd about their care she keeps Polys too. Badman Tropicals is wrong on the size.

msjinkzd

09-19-2010, 8:58 PM

a 55g is also perfectly appropriate for life. Though the polys don't have a huge range of flexibility, they are not a super "active" species. Since sens max out around 12" in captivity, even teh 12" width tanks are perfectly appropriate.

Bigger issue is really making sure that the lid is secure. These are airbreathing species and if they see an opening at the top, they WILL go through it. Please make sure you go above and beyond and securing the lid. I also keep my water line down an inch to accomodate.

As far as tank mates, the senegalus is one that can fit wtih a wide range of critters. Obviously not small tetras, etc but they do well wth fast moving fish in the top 1/3 especially.

They enjoy plants and caves, they are SUPER fun to feed and a very interactive part of a tank. I am excited that you are interested in them. I wish more people thought of polys for their tanks.

RiVerfishgirl

09-19-2010, 9:06 PM

This thread is a good example of why you cannot always trust the information on articles floating around the net. All of those articles listing that 20" max are citing from only one source that is likely inaccurate judging by the fact that no one has been able to produce pictures or proof of a fish nearly in that size range. Even fishbase has false info on there periodically (In recent years I've seen them change the max size on several species that I knew to most likely be wrong, though mostly on species not commonly seen in the trade.)
If a senegal were to reach that size I'd have to assume it to be a genetic oddball.

GoldLenny

09-19-2010, 9:33 PM

http://www.polypterus.info/keeping_polypterus.htm - near the bottom of that page is a chart of maximum lengths of several species with P. senegalus senegalus reaching 20" and P. senegalus meridionalus reaching 28". This article was published in Practical Fishkeeping magazine.

It does list that book you mentioned as one of the references but there are several other references as well. Of course, they could all be based on bad information... or we could be! ;-)

joel.uejio

09-19-2010, 9:37 PM

GoldLenny

09-19-2010, 10:18 PM

Yes, I agree with the positive comments. My two biggest senegals have slowed down growing now that they're at the 7-8" mark. I believe my tank conditions are fine, so feel that this is just normal growth for them.

I've kept mine with Congo tetras without incident for a while now. I think African butterly fish would also work (seem kind of dull to me, though). You could also add in a cichlid, but it would be tricky to find one that's big enough not to be eaten, but still comfortable in a 40g -- maybe a firemouth...

Joel,

According to your Tank Setup, you have...

FW 55 gallon: AC110+Rena XP1: Play sand: Medium planted: African Brown Knife, 3 Senegal Bichirs, Ctenopoma acutirostre, 9 Congo Tetras

Congo Tetras grow to 5". The Sengal bichirs should grow to 12", 14", 16", 20" or whatever one wishes to believe. The African Brown Knifefish grows to 12" (although there is another species that goes by that same commen name and it only grows to 8") and the C. acutirostre (African Climbing Perch) grows to 8" so that 55G is a classic example of what are more than likely to be stunted fish.

Lupin

09-20-2010, 12:28 AM

Smok3o3

09-20-2010, 12:59 AM

I personally believe the bigger the tank the better. I have two small ones and a large one right now they are real cool fish.

Smok3o3

09-20-2010, 1:02 AM

But it also depends on the dimensions a small width length would not be good for large fishes

deutsche20V

09-20-2010, 1:43 AM

Lillyan: I'd try to find an albino senegal. They tend to stay even smaller (8-10" seems to be average) and I think would be very happy in a 40 breeder. I think one albino senegal and 5-7 Congo tetras would do great in that tank. Be sure to add some driftwood to help the bichir feel secure and they appreciate floating cover as well (especially when small). Good filtration is also a must. Check out the Polypterus section of MFK - there's a lot of great information in the stickies. Good luck :thumbsup:

http://www.polypterus.info/keeping_polypterus.htm - near the bottom of that page is a chart of maximum lengths of several species with P. senegalus senegalus reaching 20" and P. senegalus meridionalus reaching 28". This article was published in Practical Fishkeeping magazine.

It does list that book you mentioned as one of the references but there are several other references as well. Of course, they could all be based on bad information... or we could be! ;-)

Its also questionable whether P. senegalus meridionalus is even a valid subspecies. The bottom line is most senegals in the hobby top out around 12". I've heard of a couple between 14-16" but until I see them next to a ruler I'll be a doubting Thomas. The other thing to keep in mind is that most senegals available these days are farmed in Asia using hormone injections and potentially imbred as well. Most captive bred bichirs don't quite measure up to the potential size of their wild-caught brothers.

Just my $0.02

GoldLenny

09-20-2010, 2:14 AM

Could we please avoid getting personal here, folks? Lenny, I understand where you are coming from but could you please relax this talk a little? It's getting tense here and I'd hate to close a good topic because we cannot politely step aside and focus on the original problem. We're here to help and answer Lillyan's original questions, not criticize anyone else's stocks and divert the issue to stunting issues. Thank you.

But when overstocking a tank or putting BIG fish in an undersized tank, stunting is exactly what you get.

I guess I could just be a YES MAN and say sure Lillyan... go ahead and get about 10 Senegal Bichirs when they're an inch long and stick them in a 10g tank.. that works with the 1" per gallon rule.. right?

Sorry.. I'm not a YES MAN and I'll always give people legitimate advice and work hard to encourage them to NOT overstock their tanks or put fish in an undersized tank.

We all know that 90% of the fish health problems that show up in ALL forums is directly related to overstocking, stunting or improper stocking of fish. To try and treat this major issue like it's the crazy lady in the cellar isn't going to help people.

Ignorance is bliss.... until you realize you are! Then it's not so blissful... except it's the fish that arent' so blissful, not the person who chooses to ignore the basics.

Lillyan

09-20-2010, 6:20 AM

I really thought this thread would of been closed by the time I got to the last post this morning.

I like to spoil my fish and give them the biggest tanks possible. So I think I will have to pass on these unique fish until I have upgraded other tanks and have a good size open to them.

This leaves me with my last Q and a pretty empty 40breeder. I want a bigger fish than all the ones I have now, but not too large it can't live in a 40breeder it's whole life, preferably with a friend too. The max size fish I have now is about 4in long. Anything a bit bigger I can have? I'd love blood parrots, but I don't like that the hybrid can't potentially breed successfully.

Inka4040

09-20-2010, 9:38 AM

But when overstocking a tank or putting BIG fish in an undersized tank, stunting is exactly what you get.

I guess I could just be a YES MAN and say sure Lillyan... go ahead and get about 10 Senegal Bichirs when they're an inch long and stick them in a 10g tank.. that works with the 1" per gallon rule.. right?

Sorry.. I'm not a YES MAN and I'll always give people legitimate advice and work hard to encourage them to NOT overstock their tanks or put fish in an undersized tank.

We all know that 90% of the fish health problems that show up in ALL forums is directly related to overstocking, stunting or improper stocking of fish. To try and treat this major issue like it's the crazy lady in the cellar isn't going to help people.

Ignorance is bliss.... until you realize you are! Then it's not so blissful... except it's the fish that arent' so blissful, not the person who chooses to ignore the basics.

I think Lupin's issue stems more from the fact that you're hijacking one person's thread to berate another who never solicited your opinion, kind of exactly like what I'm doing now!

:bling:

verbal

09-20-2010, 11:12 AM

If you can eventually get a 75 gallon tank for it, you might try a gold severum(or 2 depending on when you can upgrade).

If you will being using the 40 breeder permanently, I would look for species topping out at 10 inches. The Macaw cichlid(Hypsophrys nicaraguensis) might be a good option. There are a lot of Haps that could work, but they usually take a while to reach full size.

I really thought this thread would of been closed by the time I got to the last post this morning.

I like to spoil my fish and give them the biggest tanks possible. So I think I will have to pass on these unique fish until I have upgraded other tanks and have a good size open to them.

This leaves me with my last Q and a pretty empty 40breeder. I want a bigger fish than all the ones I have now, but not too large it can't live in a 40breeder it's whole life, preferably with a friend too. The max size fish I have now is about 4in long. Anything a bit bigger I can have? I'd love blood parrots, but I don't like that the hybrid can't potentially breed successfully.

rainbowcharmer

09-20-2010, 11:46 AM

I agree with the severum. I've got a red-spot gold sev in my 75 gal and LOVE it. They are slow-ish growers, but will need more than 40 gal eventually. Mine started out about silver-dollar sized a year ago (maybe 2 or 2.5" long including tail). He's around 4-5" or so in length now, and will slowly keep growing over the next few years.

But since you're wanting something that will stay in the 40 G, I'd suggest maybe rams. Bolivian are nice and not quite as needy as the GBR's. Just a thought. Good luck. :)

platytudes

09-20-2010, 12:08 PM

I need another unusual or large fish that can be in a 40 breeder fully grown...

Are you buying the fish online, or locally?

If locally, then it seems like putting the cart before the horse to draw up a stocking scheme without taking a close look at the LFS selection first. Write down the fish that interest you, and see how you can work them into a community.

If you don't think you'll get bichirs, what about loaches? Zebra loaches or yoyo loaches would work well in a tank this size (but I don't think both together). The problem is that they are generally expensive, and to keep them happy you need to have 4+...hard to do when the fish are $12-17 a pop :rolleyes:

RiVerfishgirl

09-20-2010, 12:58 PM

But when overstocking a tank or putting BIG fish in an undersized tank, stunting is exactly what you get. Strictly speaking stunting is a result of water quality, not tank size, though there are some other factors I'd rather not get into in this thread since we've already gotten slightly off topic. You can stunt a fish in a large tank without maintenance whereas you can have a non-stunted fish in a smaller tank with something like a drip system changing out water 24/7. Assuming the fish is not physically too large to move in the aquarium.

There are a lot of educational institutions that grow out fish in enclosures that would be considered "overstocked" judging by the amount or size of the fish per enclosure, but they have drip systems changing out water constantly so nitrates and other organics are low or nonexistent. Public aquariums for instance often get away with a large amount of stocking due to their filtration and water change out scheme, whereas the average hobbyist with that set up WOULD indeed have stunted fish.

If you take the Tennessee Aquarium for instance, who grows out sturgeon for release, they have a "touch tank" with juvenile sturgeon that at first glance appears much too highly stocked. But if you ask about their filtration scheme it would soon be evident that the water quality is not degraded due to that stocking level.

So there are many more factors that lead to stunting rather than just tank size compared to the size or amount of fish.

When we talk about overstocked there are two definitions depending on context. Overstocked as in many more fish than generally should be in the tank, but with a filtration and water change scheme that keeps water quality perfect. (There are plenty of hobbyists that overstock by this definition without detriment to the fish, so you cannot know whether someone is stunting their fish sheerly based on their stock list).
Or the definition used by people to refer to an amount of fish that will degrade water quality based on the persons filtration and maintenance schedule.
By the first definition you can be overstocked and still have healthy fish. The second definition is where we end up with fish that are stunted.

So it's not really fair to assume that someone has poor water quality and is stunting their fish based on their stock list for the size of their aquarium.

---------
Lillyan - as far as an unusual fish that can be kept in a 40 breeder, since you've discounted bichirs, how about something like dwarf pike cichlids? They have an elongate shape and are pretty interesting.

GoldLenny

09-20-2010, 2:14 PM

Strictly speaking stunting is a result of water quality, not tank size, though there are some other factors I'd rather not get into in this thread since we've already gotten slightly off topic. You can stunt a fish in a large tank without maintenance whereas you can have a non-stunted fish in a smaller tank with something like a drip system changing out water 24/7. Assuming the fish is not physically too large to move in the aquarium.

There are a lot of educational institutions that grow out fish in enclosures that would be considered "overstocked" judging by the amount or size of the fish per enclosure, but they have drip systems changing out water constantly so nitrates and other organics are low or nonexistent. Public aquariums for instance often get away with a large amount of stocking due to their filtration and water change out scheme, whereas the average hobbyist with that set up WOULD indeed have stunted fish.

If you take the Tennessee Aquarium for instance, who grows out sturgeon for release, they have a "touch tank" with juvenile sturgeon that at first glance appears much too highly stocked. But if you ask about their filtration scheme it would soon be evident that the water quality is not degraded due to that stocking level.

So there are many more factors that lead to stunting rather than just tank size compared to the size or amount of fish.

When we talk about overstocked there are two definitions depending on context. Overstocked as in many more fish than generally should be in the tank, but with a filtration and water change scheme that keeps water quality perfect. (There are plenty of hobbyists that overstock by this definition without detriment to the fish, so you cannot know whether someone is stunting their fish sheerly based on their stock list).
Or the definition used by people to refer to an amount of fish that will degrade water quality based on the persons filtration and maintenance schedule.
By the first definition you can be overstocked and still have healthy fish. The second definition is where we end up with fish that are stunted.

So it's not really fair to assume that someone has poor water quality and is stunting their fish based on their stock list for the size of their aquarium.

---------
Lillyan - as far as an unusual fish that can be kept in a 40 breeder, since you've discounted bichirs, how about something like dwarf pike cichlids? They have an elongate shape and are pretty interesting.

Re: Bold section above...

You obviously haven't read any of that poster's other threads.

msjinkzd

09-20-2010, 2:20 PM

that is irrelevant, stay on topic or stay out of the thread

deutsche20V

09-20-2010, 7:45 PM

This leaves me with my last Q and a pretty empty 40breeder. I want a bigger fish than all the ones I have now, but not too large it can't live in a 40breeder it's whole life, preferably with a friend too. The max size fish I have now is about 4in long. Anything a bit bigger I can have? I'd love blood parrots, but I don't like that the hybrid can't potentially breed successfully.

convict cichlid?

Lillyan

09-21-2010, 6:16 AM

I have serpae tetra in the tank, i'd have to wait with the convicts. How many in a 40?

Lillyan

09-21-2010, 6:27 AM

Pretty much everything on the Petsmart website I can find in their stores.
Others that I would have to buy online, really are not even an option.
What about the Eel or the spotted leaf fish? Also, I'd like more than one fully grown in a 40breeder, so keep that in mind.
Both LFS aren't that good at keeping fish and they are no where near local, lol.

Just Prince

09-21-2010, 7:14 AM

Thank you mods.

Just Prince

09-21-2010, 7:17 AM

you could also keep him with jewel cichlids. I have three hemichromis gutattus you can have. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/h_guttatus.php They max out at about 4.5 to 5". The have a lot of girth. Too big for a Polys mouth I think.

Check out Annadale Superpetz, Pristine Aquarium, and House of Tropicals. To local and semi local stores that carry everything you are looking at. H.O.T. has albino sens. I plan on picking one up as soon as my Sen gets a little bigger.

RiVerfishgirl

09-21-2010, 11:18 AM

Lillyan

09-21-2010, 4:30 PM

What kind of eel are you referring to?

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3924452

rainbowcharmer

09-21-2010, 7:09 PM

Some info on striped peacock eels: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204410

Looks like that wouldn't be a long-term resident in your 40 gal either...

Lillyan

09-21-2010, 7:33 PM

Yea, this sucks, lol. It really sucks since I'm starting to loose interest in fish since most now that I haven't kept/am keeping, need very large tanks. v.v-

rainbowcharmer

09-21-2010, 7:43 PM

There are plenty of interesting fish that don't require large tanks. :) Rams, some of the lab species, etc - and they're quite beautiful, active fish.

blue2fyre

09-21-2010, 7:58 PM

I don't think that info in that thread is accurate at all. Peacocks eels are known to be one of the smallest eels available and could easily live in a 40 breeder for life.
I don't think that type of eel is very common. You were looking to get the eel from petsmart right? They carry peacock eels which only get to 12" max, fine for a 40 gallon.

67chevelle

09-21-2010, 8:18 PM

Can I keep one or more Polypterus Senegalus in a 40 gallon breeder?
How many can I have and what tank mates, edible and just mates?
Anything else I should know?

You could easily keep a pair of Sens in a 40b. 3 if that is all that you kept.

If you stick with 2,a single convict may work. A school of tiger barbs may work too. Not sure about them in the long run though. They may get slowly picked off.

They are great to keep.Very active. Give them sinking food to eat. They will also eat frozen beef heart.

Lillyan

09-21-2010, 8:25 PM

How many eels could I have, just the one or?

RiVerfishgirl

09-21-2010, 8:49 PM

Some info on striped peacock eels: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204410

Looks like that wouldn't be a long-term resident in your 40 gal either...

Pay very close attention to the thread you posted. They are talking about a different striped peacock eel (Macrognathus aral), which is a freshwater/brackish fish that gets twice as large, whereas what petsmart is offering is Macrognathus siamensis (what most hobbyists refer to as peacock eel), which undisputedly only gets to a foot long max and is strictly freshwater.

How many eels could I have, just the one or? You should be able to keep several together. The mainly problem I've had with them is getting them to eat. They sometimes must be started out on live foods. You also need a very tightly secured lid with no gaps or else they will slighter out. And all intakes must be very well secured.

davcheng

09-28-2010, 9:36 AM

Depending on your filtration, you could keep quite a few senegal bichirs in a 40g. They are not territorial and do not grow very big. It depends on how much maintenance and how much filtration you are willing to invest in.

tayhudson

11-02-2010, 12:27 AM

I got the "smallest" sen when I got Ziggy. He was about 2 1/2", now he's about 4". He's in my 40 breeder with my green severum, 3 giant danios and 1 bn pleco. He likes to try and catch the danios, lol. I would suggest a nice bubble wall or strip, something long. My Ziggy lovessss to lay across the bubble wall I have and let he bubbles float him to the top. It's 23" long. He eats really well and has become even more active since I added the danios (as dither/target fish) I think 1 or 2 would be ok. Get them small tho. IMO.

ExPeNsIvE HoBbY

11-02-2010, 5:06 AM

Just for a reference for the OP about Polypterus Senegalus, I had 2, one was eaten by my redtail cat, but at the time of death he was 10", but here's the twist, he was only ~8months old, or at least I only had him for that amount of time, but he was only 2" when I purchased him from the LFS.

With that said, his growth rate suggested a much larger possible size than 10". He was on his way to at least 16-18" but has been housed in a 135g for the last 7 1/2 months.

As far as water quality and stunting of this particular species, I don't believe water quality plays a role per say.
Now I will say this with a disclaimer: I do not condone keeping fish or any animal in conditions falling short of perfect. Give all animals the best life and home possible. Ok with the disclaimer it of the way, Bichirs breathe atmospheric air, so poor water quality will not affect them in the same way as it would other fish. This is why in their native habitat they can survive for so long in stagnant, oxygen deprived water, and in extreme cases, leave the water to find more suitable water.

So as far as size for life, I believe they absolutely have the capacity to outgrow a 40b, but is it likely? Probably not.