are angels and discus compatible?

[Randy-S]

Hello all, I am in the process of taking down my 200 gallon cubish marine reef tank. For a change of pace I am looking at setting up a planted discus tank with my 200. It measures 4' wide by 3' deep and 28" tall.
I know angels and discus come from the same location but are they compatible tanks mates?
Randy

[drgnfrc13]

Yes, I've seen quite a few setups with both angels and discus together.

[XanAvaloni]

As far as I know angels ARE discus, so they should get along as well as any other group of mixed discus. Never kept any of the regular sort so don't know about their behavior but angels can definitely be bullies, both intra-and cross species.

then again I have a mollie who is getting mean as a snake in her old age. Beat the bejeebers out of one little angel who was put into the tank with her because he acted out so badly with other angels that I feared for their safety. It improved his character somewhat but I wound up having to put Beluga the Menopausal Molly into the all-angels tank to spread her list of targets out a bit.

so to finally answer your question I think it depends on the individuals involved. :)

[Randy-S]

Been reading around the forum I think since my tank is 200 gallons doing a mix of say 8-12 discus and 5-7 angels should not be a problem as far as fighting I think the big concern is will the angels out compete the discus for food.
I think if i add the discuss first and they are say 3-4 inch each and add small angel later say in the 1-2 inch size it should keep the discus bolder

[drgnfrc13]

As far as I know angels ARE discus, so they should get along as well as any other group of mixed discus. Never kept any of the regular sort so don't know about their behavior but angels can definitely be bullies, both intra-and cross species.

then again I have a mollie who is getting mean as a snake in her old age. Beat the bejeebers out of one little angel who was put into the tank with her because he acted out so badly with other angels that I feared for their safety. It improved his character somewhat but I wound up having to put Beluga the Menopausal Molly into the all-angels tank to spread her list of targets out a bit.

so to finally answer your question I think it depends on the individuals involved. :)
What? Lol, angels and discus are in two separate genera, you can't say that one is the other.

[drgnfrc13]

Been reading around the forum I think since my tank is 200 gallons doing a mix of say 8-12 discus and 5-7 angels should not be a problem as far as fighting I think the big concern is will the angels out compete the discus for food.
I think if i add the discuss first and they are say 3-4 inch each and add small angel later say in the 1-2 inch size it should keep the discus bolder
That would way overstock your tank, I wouldn't do any more than 6 discus and 3 angels. 200 gallons may seem big right now, but put 19 fish that are all around 6 inches long and between 8 and 13 inches tall, and I guarantee you it will look puny afterwards. The tank's footprint matters more than its actual volume when you are considering stocking, and a 4x3 footprint doesn't provide that much free swimming space.

[Cerianthus]

Switching from Reef to F/W? I almost died when took my reef tanks down.

Anyway, rise the tank well.

I dont see any major problem keeping both together in 200G tank. Only problem I see is reaching bottom of the tank to anchor live plants unless you have long arm. That is if you are going that route.

Depending on the temp you decide to keep, you may even have SA dwarf cichlids and many varieties of corys as well.

Start off with discus then add angels, giving shy discus to settle before angels as you posted.

I will leave the stocking # to their keepers.

Good Luck! Any photos of reef set up?

[XanAvaloni]

What? Lol, angels and discus are in two separate genera, you can't say that one is the other.

this is what I get for repeating something I vaguely recall reading somewhere I don't remember on the internets. Consider assertion retracted and deleted. /blushes severely.

[SubRosa]

There are no major issues in a large tank but ime Discus do best when they're the most aggressive fish in the tank, which they aren't if Angels are present. Your proposed stocking level will be fine as long as you keep up on water changes, which for Discus should be at least 33% weekly. A good rule of thumb for Discus is to figure on 10 gals per adult, with a minimum population of 5 or 6 as they're very social fish.

[drgnfrc13]

Your proposed stocking level will be fine as long as you keep up on water changes, which for Discus should be at least 33% weekly.

I strongly disagree. That tank is not large enough for 13-19 large fish. For one thing, discus do best when kept in water that is below 15-20ppm in nitrates, which will be very difficult to achieve once the fish reach their adult sizes. And in addition to the, the tank doesn't provide an adequate ammount of swimming space for that many fish.



A good rule of thumb for Discus is to figure on 10 gals per adult
There is no such thing as a good rule of thumb for fishkeeping. ;)

Edit: And also, unless the tank is going to be pretty heavily planted, I would change more like 40-50% of the water per week (or you could do what I do on my 220 and just change 25% twice weekly).

[bangme33]

i have a angel and a discus in the same tank, they hang around together but also quarrel now and then, discus being the winner of course.
but has mentioned they both live together in the wild, so yes they are compatable. ive also read on the internet that you shouldnt mix them together due to the fact of disease transfer.

[stephcps]

I don't think the dimensions of your tank allow for that stocking. If it was a long...72 inches by whatever, it would be better. There will not be enough swimming room for that many large fish. I keep angels and discus together without an issue. The angels wii definitely out compete the discus for food. I feed the angels at one end...then while they are busy being little piggies I feed my discus at the other end. I don't think I woud do more than 5-6 discus and 3-4 angels in that tank. It's the dimensions...not the volume that make it a little awkward for large fish. Just my 2 cents.

[Cerianthus]

I have raised/bred many many Discus in much higher nitrate than posted above. Although lower is better, I dont recall any drawbacks from my experiences thus dont go crazy trying to lower high NO3 in one wc. Do so in small but frequent wc.

Frequency and amount of wc changes should be determined by each tanks parameters and types/amt of food given. No one set rule, imo, since no tanks are alike!

[SubRosa]

I strongly disagree. That tank is not large enough for 13-19 large fish. For one thing, discus do best when kept in water that is below 15-20ppm in nitrates, which will be very difficult to achieve once the fish reach their adult sizes. And in addition to the, the tank doesn't provide an adequate ammount of swimming space for that many fish.


There is no such thing as a good rule of thumb for fishkeeping. ;)

Edit: And also, unless the tank is going to be pretty heavily planted, I would change more like 40-50% of the water per week (or you could do what I do on my 220 and just change 25% twice weekly).There are indeed very good rules of thumb in fishkeeping and probably every other human endeavor. The trick is being able to tell a good one from a bad one. Here's a little help! The problem with most rules of thumb is that they're far too general to apply to all cases. Example, "one inch of fish per gal of water"
The reasons this one falls flat is that "an inch of fish" is much too vague a term and isn't the proper criteria for computing carrying capacity in the first place. Biomass is actually the criteria we want. A 4" example of a species is more likely to weigh 40 x what a 1" example weighs than 4 x. And a 2" Discus will weigh at least 20 x what a 2" Kuhlii Loach weighs. But if your parameters are specific enough, ie "1" of fish that max out at less than 2" total length per gal", or more specifically in this case "Adult Discus" rules of thumb can work out very nicely.

[Randy-S]

Switching from Reef to F/W? I almost died when took my reef tanks down.

Anyway, rise the tank well.

I dont see any major problem keeping both together in 200G tank. Only problem I see is reaching bottom of the tank to anchor live plants unless you have long arm. That is if you are going that route.

Depending on the temp you decide to keep, you may even have SA dwarf cichlids and many varieties of corys as well.

Start off with discus then add angels, giving shy discus to settle before angels as you posted.

I will leave the stocking # to their keepers.

Good Luck! Any photos of reef set up?


here you go
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/ranran/full%20tank%20shots/fulltankshots001.jpg

[drgnfrc13]

There are indeed very good rules of thumb in fishkeeping and probably every other human endeavor. The trick is being able to tell a good one from a bad one. Here's a little help! The problem with most rules of thumb is that they're far too general to apply to all cases. Example, "one inch of fish per gal of water"
The reasons this one falls flat is that "an inch of fish" is much too vague a term and isn't the proper criteria for computing carrying capacity in the first place. Biomass is actually the criteria we want. A 4" example of a species is more likely to weigh 40 x what a 1" example weighs than 4 x. And a 2" Discus will weigh at least 20 x what a 2" Kuhlii Loach weighs. But if your parameters are specific enough, ie "1" of fish that max out at less than 2" total length per gal", or more specifically in this case "Adult Discus" rules of thumb can work out very nicely.
Okay, then let's take your discus rule of thumb as an example. Can I keep one adult discus (8" long x 9" high) in a 10 gallon aquarium?

There are always exceptions to every rule, which, imo, makes rules useless in a situation like this. The best rule for any fishkeeping situation is: use your best judgement, and if you are not confident in your own judgement (due to inexperience), then ask others who have experience with it.

[SubRosa]

Of course not because Discus are social fish, and another very good rule of thumb with Discus is to keep them in groups of at least 6, therefore you would want at the minimum a 60 gal tank to keep Discus, although very good breeder I know keeps pairs in 29s and even 20Hs for smaller individuals.And honestly now, how many 8" Discus have you seen? They're as common as 7' humans ime.

[SubRosa]

And I must ask! Is there an exception to the rule that there's an exception to every rule?

[GEV83]

And I must ask! Is there an exception to the rule that there's an exception to every rule?

lol i think about that everytime i say it but yes there is exceptions to that rule as well like ever person will die sometime there is no beating death.

On another note you 2 should put your arguement aside and help the OP out and not start going back and forth with your personal views. Sometimes people see this in a negative light and it discourages new comers from coming back. Lets keep it possitive.


My opinion on this is I would do 7 discus and 5 angel fish. But then I like odd numbers. I would see how they do if they get along then cool if they dont then at least your numbers wont be that high and either the angels or discus could be rehomed.

[drgnfrc13]

And I must ask! Is there an exception to the rule that there's an exception to every rule?
"there's an exception to every rule" is a fact (well, more of an opinion really), not a rule.

[drgnfrc13]

Of course not because Discus are social fish, and another very good rule of thumb with Discus is to keep them in groups of at least 6, therefore you would want at the minimum a 60 gal tank to keep Discus, although very good breeder I know keeps pairs in 29s and even 20Hs for smaller individuals.And honestly now, how many 8" Discus have you seen? They're as common as 7' humans ime.
But that wasn't part of the original rule, and therefore the original rule was incorrect. But even if the new addition makes it correct, it required too much explanation (which imo makes it more of an experience thing, like I said before, than a rule).


They're as common as 7' humans ime.
Well I just happen to be 7'3". :grinno: But seriously, no I haven't seen one in person at that size, but I've seen enough pics of them to believe it's possible.



On another note you 2 should put your arguement aside and help the OP out and not start going back and forth with your personal views. Sometimes people see this in a negative light and it discourages new comers from coming back. Lets keep it possitive.


I don't really see it as anything negative, just a conversation to decide what is best for the OP's tank. Isn't that the purpose of a public forum? :)

[GEV83]

Ok just making sure cuz in text its hard to tell how the person is actually objecting there opinion. I know when I first joined here alot of people were negative and I left. But well im obviously back and well people here have been more positive. Glad your not being negative.

Also this was brought up on MFK when someone started talking about Red Tailed Catfish that why should someone go based on the size that they can get then commonly get? The reason is cuz if properly house and maintained your fish may actually get that big. Not that they will but they might so why under estimate the fishes capability of getting 8"? Its best to be prepared then to be caught off gaurd. =-)

[drgnfrc13]

^ agreed


Ok just making sure cuz in text its hard to tell how the person is actually objecting there opinion. I know when I first joined here alot of people were negative and I left. But well im obviously back and well people here have been more positive. Glad your not being negative.


Yeah, that's why I usually try to include emoticons in my posts, but there are a lot of situations where there's really not a good emoticon to express the particular emotion (or the one that does could be taken the wrong way).

[SubRosa]

I was honored to build a system around a 3rd place winner at the Discus Championship in Germany about 6 yrs ago that was every bit of 9". I've seen a handful of 8 inchers, and countless 7 inchers. And I'm not just talking TR fish but lots and lot of large WC adults.But this has been over the course of more years than I care to remember! Not many Discus possess the genetic make-up to reach 8", or to have the perfect conformation and markings to make a champion. You have your experience with stocking levels, I have mine. They'll both work.

[wesleydnunder]

OK, now that we've sufficiently impressed the OP with our ability to argue minutae, lets get back to the original question.

Discus and angelfish can occupy the same aquarium, though very few serious discus keepers have the two species housed together.

Discus tend to be "grazers", pecking their food off the bottom. Angels are much more aggressive at feeding time and will often "shoulder" discus out of the way to get to the food. Ensuring that the discus get enough to eat, a hobbyist will add more food. This leads to several inevitable complications; mainly cleanliness issues.

In that tank, I'd house 8 adult discus and a large school of cardinals or rummynose. I think with a heavy plant mass, plenty of swimming spaces and healthy fish, you'd be very pleased with the outcome.

My $.02

Mark

[fishorama]

I agree with Mark, although I haven't kept them together I see compatability issues especially with juvenile fish. Can it be done? Sure, it's worked sometimes in very large tanks with understocking of both species as adults. But it's never going to be ideal unless you're luckier than most, at least for a while...

[alan j t]

right on ther money.

[captaincaveman9]

OK, now that we've sufficiently impressed the OP with our ability to argue minutae, lets get back to the original question.

Discus and angelfish can occupy the same aquarium, though very few serious discus keepers have the two species housed together.

Discus tend to be "grazers", pecking their food off the bottom. Angels are much more aggressive at feeding time and will often "shoulder" discus out of the way to get to the food. Ensuring that the discus get enough to eat, a hobbyist will add more food. This leads to several inevitable complications; mainly cleanliness issues.

In that tank, I'd house 8 adult discus and a large school of cardinals or rummynose. I think with a heavy plant mass, plenty of swimming spaces and healthy fish, you'd be very pleased with the outcome.

My $.02

Mark

I agree

[Randy-S]

OK, now that we've sufficiently impressed the OP with our ability to argue minutae, lets get back to the original question.

Discus and angelfish can occupy the same aquarium, though very few serious discus keepers have the two species housed together.

Discus tend to be "grazers", pecking their food off the bottom. Angels are much more aggressive at feeding time and will often "shoulder" discus out of the way to get to the food. Ensuring that the discus get enough to eat, a hobbyist will add more food. This leads to several inevitable complications; mainly cleanliness issues.

In that tank, I'd house 8 adult discus and a large school of cardinals or rummynose. I think with a heavy plant mass, plenty of swimming spaces and healthy fish, you'd be very pleased with the outcome.

My $.02

Mark

Thank you mark !!