Advice for absolute beginner

[newfisher]

Hi! Ok, I know this all has been discussed multiple times before but if I could get some confirmation, I would really appreciate it.

Background: I did have some experience with FW fish in the 70's and now my son has just gotten into FW fish about a year ago. So much has changed! The learning has kind of re-sparked my interest but I thought I would try the SW route.

Considering:
Somewhere between 30 - 50 gal tank. Likely will be FOWLR.
I live in a somewhat remote part of Northern Ontario. There are a couple of LFS here but only 1 who really specializes in SW fish and some corals, etc.

Questions:
1. I'm considering the DSB option for this tank. I don't think the LFS's know much about it nor recommend it. (Read - not much local support for the idea) Will it work in that small a tank? Are the potential pitfalls and long-term issues more prominent with smaller tanks?
2. With a DSB, can I get away without a protein skimmer and just do regular water changes? If not, when do I need to get the protein skimmer running? I have seen lots of conflicting opinions about whether they are required and when. If I have some good success at this tank, I think that ultimately I might get into some reef stuff.
3. With the DSB, and a tank size like what I'm considering, should I plan on getting "very live sand" or should I just use what ever I can get my hands on and innoculate with "borrowed" sand. Also, do I need to go out and purchase sand stirrers like the various worms, etc? Is there a link someone can point me to that would list the various types of fauna that I should consider getting?
4. Should I consider uncured live rock for doing the initial cycle of the tank? I thought by going this route, I might have less supplementary purchasing to do since everything will have to be shipped in.
5. Can anyone recommend good livestock suppliers in Canada? Stuff might arrive in better shape if it doesn't have to cross customs again.

Thanks for any information you can pass along!

Newfisher

[g. mcclean]

I can only add a little info to your requests. We have a DSB in both of our tanks. One is of the Home Depot type sand and the other is of a more coarse type purchased at our LFS. Ultimately we will have to change the coarse sand. That tank constantly gets red algae and the sand is the only diference in the tanks. We use a protein skimmer in both tanks. Most advise will tell you they are a must. We cycled our second tank with uncured live rock and were very happy with the results. We ran the skimmer during the cycling.

[OrionGirl]

A DSB will work in a smaller tank--I have one in my 10. I encourage you to go with the biggest tank you can--not only does it allow you more options on the fish you can have, but it will be more stable. The size of the tank doesn't really change the function that much, and certainly doesn't change the need for stirrers and such. Smaller tanks are inherently less stable, just because there is as smaller volume of water to dilute toxins--but that doesn't mean you should avoid a DSB.

I wouldn't skip the skimmer. While not required, they will help maintain good water--less work for you, big return. If you cycle with uncured rock, I would run it from the beginning--you'll reduce the toxins that can kill off lots of the hitch hikers. If you cycle with some cocktail shrimp, wait until you start seeing nitrates. This way the cycle will still spike, but you'll have some time to get the skimmer broke in before stocking.

If you get uncured LR, you'll import lots of worms and tiny stars and snails and such--you can supplement them, but it's not a requirement.

Not sure on shipping to Canada--think TBS does, but there are customs charges.

[newfisher]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
If you cycle with uncured rock, I would run it from the beginning--you'll reduce the toxins that can kill off lots of the hitch hikers. If you cycle with some cocktail shrimp, wait until you start seeing nitrates. ...
If you get uncured LR, you'll import lots of worms and tiny stars and snails and such--you can supplement them, but it's not a requirement.


Thanks for the info!

So which is the preferred method? Or rather, if you were starting a 50 Gal. today, how would you start it? Start with all the LR uncured on a base of some sort, and add sand later? Or Start with the sand and a base built in, cycle with some shrimp and then import all the LR? I expect there probably isn't a right answer but If I'm going to spend a fortune on LR, I would like to help what ever is living on to continue in the manner they would prefer (alive!).

Thanks again!

[OrionGirl]

Well, this is how I'm setting up some 120's. I'll add play sand, about 3-4 inches. Some rocks base--dry tufa--will go in first, then sand around it. The tufa will be the stable base for the live rock. Then the water (pouring it into a powl or large plate will prevent a sand storm). Then the cocktail shrimp, to rot and start the cycle. Once the ammonia and nitrites hit 0, the uncured live rock will go in, cycle again til zero. Then everything (more rock, corals, inverts and fish) from the existing 65's will be moved over.

For my 10, I added the sand and some base rock, and a shrimp. Everything hit 0, and I'm now adding a few pieces of cured rock, and feeding it sparingly. It's getting moved to a new stand shortly, and then I'll start adding fish.

I would add the base rock, and sand, and then cycle it. Adding uncured rock will add a little time before you can add fish, but you won't have as extreme spikes, so a few water changes will prevent serious damage to the live rock critters. Then, when it's all zeroed, you know you have a good bacteria bed for the critters.

[TKOS]

I think a big part of it is whether or not you are buying cured or uncured live rock.

[newfisher]

Awesome! Thank you very much for the info. I think (because of shipping costs), I'll probably put a big hunk of the uncured LR in at once to cut down on shipping costs but add some show pieces after. I may also try to borrow a cup of established sand for the initial cycle.

Another problem I have been finding out about is that all the play sand around here is likely going to be silica sand. I might put a base of that in and cover it with aragonite (maybe half and half). Does anyone know about dolomite? Milled dolomite (small particle size) is a crushed limestone product and is very available around here. Will it substitute for aragonite? I've also heard that it can be a good source of some other trace minerals.

[OrionGirl]

Not sure about the dolomite, but silica play sand works fine, no problems. I have it in 3 SW tanks right now--no algae, very stable, etc. The small particle size is more important, IMO, than the composition.