Phosphate - Phosphorus??

[TonyN]

Hi,
I'm new here, Just registered. Looks like a great forum. Anyway, I read the sticky on fertilizers and it helps a lot. However there is something I dont understand. When you talk about phosphates, is this the same as phosphorus (as in Flourish Phosphorus)? Right now I'm fighting a phosphate problem (off the chart according to the SeaTest Kit). Therefore I assume I wouldn't want to add any Phosphorus. Is this correct?
Also my Nitrates read 20 to 40, so I think I would not want to add any Nitrogen. Right or wrong?
I would appreciate any help you could give me on this,

Thanks

[djlen]

Welcome to the forum!!
You can probably put a big dent in your Nitrate/Phosphate problem with a series of large water changes. They are one of the most effective means of renewing your water.
You want to keep the N between 5ppm and 10ppm and the P between .50 and 1.0. This should be balanced with K and Trace elements. Balance of nutrients and water changes are the keys to a healthy tank.
There are many knowledgeable people haunting this forum who can help so don't hesitate to ask questions.
It would be of enormous help if you could compile your tank's vital statistics and put them in the Signature section of your posts for reference, so that you won't have to repeat them every time someone asks you how much light you have and what type of filtration or substrate do you use, etc. Then, every time you post, all that info. will be available at the end of the post.

Len

[TonyN]

Len,
Thanks for your welcome. I've been doing a lot of water changes, but it doesn't seem to help. Right now I'm using Seachem Phosguard.
Anyway, I still need to know if the phosphate I've got is the same thing as when you add Flourish Phosphorus.
Also are nitrates the same thing as when you add Flourish Nitrogen,

Thanks

[happychem]

They are the same. Phosphorus is just the elemental name. Same deal with nitrogen and nitrate.

[TonyN]

Ok,
Thanks a lot. Glad I registered with this board,

See Ya

[plantbrain]

Phosphate is what the plants use and you use for that matter, seldom is Phosphorus ever free in biochemical reactions and not for long. PO4= phosphate P= phosphorus.

While you can have high PO4 levels, you might not have any PO4 that is available for plants, it might be mainly organic bound PO4.
If you don't do many/enough weater changes, have too high a fish load, over feed a lot, use a PO4 based acid "buffer" to lower pH then you will have problems generally.

Large frequent water changes tend to keeop the levels low. Adding inorganic sources of PO4, NO3 etc is a good idea as these are most available to the plants.

Periphyton and algae that bother you can use organic forms of PO4 that the plants cannot use. They also can live on far less PO4 than any can possibly live on.

Removing the PO4 does not prevent algae or limit it when you have plants.

If you do this critically, you will find this to be true. Plants will slow their growth down when PO4 limited.

But the needs of the plants are still far greater than the PO4 needs of the algae.

So you need to ask the question: is your goal to grow the plants?

Focus on their needs, not on limiting nutrient for algal control. You will chase your tail for a long time till you figure this out.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[TonyN]

Ok - now I'm getting confused. Right now I have about 5 mg/L
phosphates. I'm using seachem phosguard to get it down.
I've been doing water changes, 25 per cent every week. I have a 20 Gallon tank, heavily planted, with a lot of fish (probably overstocked). I'm using the whole line of Flourish nutrients, except Phosphorus and Nitrogen. I'm not using any Phosphate buffers, or any other chemicals other than what I've listed.
I'm injecting CO2 at about 30 Bubbles per minute, and my CO2 level is about 18 ppm. pH 6.8, kH about 3.5.
So are you saying I should leave the Phosphates alone and just live with the algae? My goal is definitely to grow the plants, but my algae is to the point where I have to clean the glass every other day to keep it clean. I dont mind doing that if thats what it takes, but that much algae seems excessive.
What do you suggest?
Thanks

[Starry]

>>Ok - now I'm getting confused. Right now I have about 5 mg/L
phosphates. I'm using seachem phosguard to get it down.

Not sure what this is, but I'm pretty sure it's not a nuclear reactor, so the most it can do is tie up your phosphates (so it's unavailable to algae/plants), but how in the world would it actually make them go away?

>>I've been doing water changes, 25 per cent every week.

If you really want the phosphates to go down, do 60-70% water changes every other day for a few days, then weekly 50%. Crypts might melt, but they always do anyway. Weekly 25% is nothing.

>> I have a 20 Gallon tank, heavily planted, with a lot of fish (probably overstocked). I'm using the whole line of Flourish nutrients, except Phosphorus and Nitrogen. I'm not using any Phosphate buffers, or any other chemicals other than what I've listed.

Your nitrates are good as they are. If they ever go to 0, then you'll need to dose.

>> I'm injecting CO2 at about 30 Bubbles per minute, and my CO2 level is about 18 ppm. pH 6.8, kH about 3.5.

That's about perfect, wish I could keep mine like that all the time. Is yours stable?

So, do lots of large water changes and see if it goes down. How's your tap water?

[djlen]

Tony -
What is your wattage?
How long has this tank been set up?
What types of fish and how many?
Are you injecting with DIY CO2 or pressurized? If pressurized try to pump it up to 25 - 30ppm.
What type of algae are we dealing with?
Does the whole line of Flourish products include K?
I think what Tom is saying is that limiting a particular element, in this case P, is not the answer. At least not through the use of Phosguard. Something is out of balance. You just have to figure out what it is.
A large fish load can create a high N level. Either P in the water supply or over feeding can create an excess of Phosphates. If your tap water has little or no P in it, larger water changes will alleviate this problem. I would suggest after checking the water supply for P, doing a series of large water changes of 50%.
Do one every other day. This will bring the P level down.
But you have to figure out what is causing the imbalance and correct it. You don't want to eliminate it entirely. Just to balance it with the others.
The water changes will also bring the N level down.

EDIT: Just noticed that Starry suggested many of the same things I suggest above. Sorry for the repetition.....but we are suggesting them because they work.
Please answer my first few questions so that we can get a better handle on your tank.

Len

[TonyN]

Ok - To answer some of your questions:

65w 50/50 Coralife Aqualight
Tank has been set up for a couple years, but I only got the Aqualight and started seriously trying to grow plants about a month ago.
I have about 20 assorted platies, mollies, tetras, 3 corys, one dwarf gourami, and a couple little frogs.
Im using two of the Hagen Plantgrow systems, and getting a total of about 30 Bubble a minute.
I dont know what kind of algae this is. All I can tell you is that its green.
I've got one big Amazon Sword. A lot of Wisteria. Some anubias, a couple Ludwigia, some Cabomba, and a couple banana plants, and some java moss and java ferns.
All of the plants seem to be doing well except the Sword which is getting brown spots and a little algae on it.
The Flourish line is: Flourish, Flourish Iron, Flourish Potassium, Flourish Trace, and Flourish Excel (Carbon). I havent used the Flourish Phosphorus, or the Flourish Nitrogen yet, but I'm wondering if I should be.
pH 6.8, kH 4, CO2 about 14 today.
I guess that about tells the whole picture. I'm going to start doing those big time water changes tomorrow, like you've all suggested.
Any other suggestions? I really appreciate all the interest you guys are showing. It's nice to have a place to go for help.
Thanks

[djlen]

First, be careful when using Excel and CO2 injection together.
You have an established tank so it's not 'new tank syndrome'(I just made that up).
The tank is not seriously overstocked, IMO, but as previously stated a lot of fish can cause nitrates to be high.
I wish I had asked what kind of filtration you have, because I'm going to suggest that you get more fish......Otocinclas, but I hesitate to add more fish to your tank. If you have really good filtration and feel the tank can handle it, get some Oto's. They are great algae eaters.
You have a good selection of plants and it sounds like it's a heavily stocked tank, which is necessary because your lighting is a bit over 3watts/gal., which is not in the 'high' category, but approaching it.
If it was my tank, I would do the water changes to lower N and P levels and cut out the use of the Fe. Over dosing of Fe can cause algae issues and from the sounds of it, you don't need extra Fe at this time. Flourish should supply what your plants need.
You only need to add N when the level drops below 5ppm, and P when the level drops below .50ppm.
The only thing I can come up with for the high P level, based on what you've told us, is that you are over feeding the fish, unless it's in your tap water.
When you do your water changes do a light(not deep) siphoning of as much of the substrate as you can get to without uprooting plants.

Len

[TonyN]

I just did a huge water change (about 75%), and my phosphates dropped to about 2 ppm. Much better, but I'd still like to get it down to 1 ppm. I'll do another 50% change on Tuesday and see what happens.
After I did the change today, my kH also dropped to 2.2 degrees (or 40 ppm). pH about 6.8. Do you think I should raise the kH a little?
Anyway, Right now I have the Emperer Power Filter, but last week I ordered an Eheim Ecco canister filter. I'm planning on using them both. Right now I'm getting a lot of surface movement from the Emperor and I figure I'll turn that down some once I get the Eheim. (Should get it by wed or thurs)
Once that is set I'll go looking for the Otocinclas you mentioned. (never heard of it before. Is it something like the Flying Fox?)
The P isn't coming from my tapwater (it reads 0), so I must be overfeeding. I've already started reducing the amount I'm feeding these guys. I'm giving them about two minutes worth twice a day. (is there any way to tell if you're underfeeding?)
So there you go, Please let me know what you think about my kH.
See Ya
Thanks

[Hound]

Ottos and flying foxes are often mistaken for each other in LFS as I understand. When you do get some ottos make sure to aclimate slowly and even then you may lose some due to stress unfortunatly.

[djlen]

Just ask for Otos or Otocinclas Algae Eaters. When you say it the O's are pronounced with a long O. I find that many LFS's like to call them Ottos though, so if they don't know what you're talking about, say Ottos.
I believe the fish that are sometimes confused with the Flying Fox are SAEs and unless you start to experience BBA, I would not invest in them at this time.
Strange that your kH would drop with the water change unless it's really low coming from the tap. Take a bowl of tap water and let it sit out for 2 or 3 hours and test it for kH. In fact, if you've never done that before(let it sit) it might be a good idea to test for N and P and pH at that time as well. It gives the water time to 'gas off' and you might see a difference.
2.2 kH is low when using CO2. Ideally, you'd like to see 3.0-3.5.
If it shows that out of the tap and remains there in the tank you can pick up some crushed coral at the LFS, put it in a filter bag(little nylon bags that fit into a HOB) and stick it into your Emperor to raise the kH and buffering ability.
The cannister will help a bunch with CO2 absorption and you can put a piece of filter sponge on the lip of the Emperor and it will cut way down on surface disturbance. It'll be good to have both working as sometimes cannisters leave dead spots in the tank due to lack of complete circulation.
Just feed 2 - 4 Min's. worth and watch to see that a little is hitting the bottom for the Corys. Twice a day at that rate and they will be fine.
Once I went to work at a fish store which had been closed all
summer. My initial job was to clean all the tanks which were like 1/2 full due to evaporation and no filtration. I found fish in about 50% of the tanks that hadn't been fed, or cared for, for months. They were all slim, but otherwise fine. I was pissed at the managers of the place for their lack of thought, but amazed at the way the fish hung in there all summer.
Keep up the water changes until the P nears 1.0 and see if you can hold it there.

Len

[Starry]

Since we're on the topic of feeding, here's something that's been bugging me lately: I have a bunch of platies (about 6 adults) in a 10-gal, and they are all the direct descendants of my boyfriend's fish from residence, so that would be 2 years ago. Right now I have 2 or 3 of those original fry (not fry anymore...), and the others were born at varying times since then. The weird thing was that they never really grew to full size, none of them. I figured this was because for the first 6 months or so they lived in a 1-gal tank, 7-8 fry. I assumed this stunted their growth, and subsequent fry didn't do well because they were born to very young mothers. But they were always happy and healthy and friendly, so I left it at that.

When I moved back to school in January I left my tank at home. My parents have been feeding them, and I do water changes about once a month when I go home. Well, they have all grown like crazy since then, even ones that are already well over 1 year old. Also, the fry that were born since then are also growing faster than usual. There are one or two that haven't really grown still. The only reason I can think of is because my parents feed them a lot. But I used to feed 2x a day, and they always had full bellies. As far as I know, it's pretty impossible to starve fish. So was I really feeding too little? Funny thing.

Anyway, sorry about going off-topic. Just wanted to share my weird experience of apparently underfeeding.

[TonyN]

Ok - Thanks a lot people. I think I'm on the way to where I want to be. (?!?)
I'll keep up the water changes, and I'm going to check my tap water after it sits a couple hours. I'm also going to try the crushed coral to raise the kH and see what happens. I know I can get some from my LFS guy. were almost blood brothers, I've been in there so many times.
Kinda weird about you platies growing like that. I've never heard of any growth after the first few months. I've got Platies and Guppies in another tank that I call my "Family Tank". I just let them go at it, and They're into the fourth or fifth generation by now. I sort out the best ones and use them for my planted tank.
I'm starting to wonder if this is a hobby or a sickness:huh:
I'll check in later and let you know how its going,
Thanks again,

[djlen]

Tony, if the coral(you only need a little) comes out of a tank(used)
be sure and bake it at 350° on a flat baking pan for 10 mins. to kill off any hitch-hikers.

Starry, parents always seem to over do everything, don't they!?!

I have found that rather than feeding a lot of food, if I want good growth I feed very small feedings but many times a day.
People who grow fish in 'grow out tanks' feed tons all day long, but many use bare bottom tanks for this purpose and bottom siphon daily for cleanliness.

Len