Euthanizing fish and the environment

[happychem]

Not a pleasant topic, I'll admit. But there comes a time when it must be done.

That said, something I read recently brought a conversation I had with a marine biologist friend of mine a while ago to my mind. Namely that sometimes flushed fish survive the flushing and can reap havoc on the natural ecosystem.

The key, as I was informed, was to put the fish in a bag and freeze them. As the water in the bag cools, the fish's metabolism slows and it finally sleeps then dies.

The reason I thought to post this was twofold. Firstly, for those who decide to flush healthy fish, this is a good way to prevent damaging your local ecosystem by introducing a non-native fish. Secondly, for those who take the humane route to euthanise a terminally ill/dyeing fish, this presents a route where the fish dies in the most peaceful manner possible. As opposed to a lot of swirling and gushing water.

Sorry for the downer, just hoping to pass on a bit of knowledge that was imparted to me in hopes of more humane and eco-concious fish keeping.

[BigMike]

Actually, as a newbie to this hobby, let me be the first to say...
This is an extremely helpful post.
I would never have thought about the eco concern,
I just feel like hell when I gotta flush someone.
thanks.

[Peter99]

I was thinking more on the lines of putting it in the microwave and see what happens..... All right, all right, I'm just kidding! :p

Thanks for the thread, I think its helpful. :)

[Hound]

I also remember reading somewhere about a fish surviving in a septic tank for weeks. Talk about a horid life.

[RTR]

These days I use clove oil (from the drug store, toothache remedy section) as an anaesthetic for puffers requiring dental work, 1 drop per liter or just a bit more. After the fish goes under, tripple the dose to make it permanent. After anaesthetized you could alternately freeze the fish.

I bury (or send to landfill) all dead fish. It is safer than flushing.

[daveedka]

It's funny, I never considered the idea of flushing a live fish untill I read some posts here, it actually took me a while to catch on to the fact that when people talk about flushing they don't always euthanise first. The danger to the environment is one issue, also, I personally will not allow any animal to suffer needlessly and therefore I always euthanise anything I have to in a quick decisive manner. Freezing is one of the easiest and more humane methods, I have access to fast freeze gases so that is usually my route, I like the clove oil idea, I'll have to get some of that. Whatever the method, quick and decisive is the route to go.

[ScottoMacD]

Originally posted by RTR
These days I use clove oil (from the drug store, toothache remedy section) as an anaesthetic for puffers requiring dental work, 1 drop per liter or just a bit more. After the fish goes under, tripple the dose to make it permanent. After anaesthetized you could alternately freeze the fish.

Robert.

Bud, you are the man.
Now I remember why I always enjoy your posts.

After all these years in this hobby I know that I can always count on you to teach me something new.

Very very interesting.

Thanks for sharing.

[RTR]

Aw, shucks... :emb:

After all these years I hope I have learned something and can pass it along.

The clove oil business is relatively new - that came up in dealing with puffer dental problems on the puffer list.

[Bucho]

I understand the whole idea of be humane and not flushing a live fish, but how can a fish be any worse than anything else that is flushed down the toilet. I always thaought that sewage went to the treatment plant and was processed before being released to the environment in any way at all.??????????????

[Neo Sithlord]

Anouther way I heard of putting down a fish is to point at it while making snide comments about it's fin size.... Erm...

Seriously though. I've read using a 20% solution of Voldka and water works well for putting a fish to sleep. Freezing pretty much would be like putting the fish through hypothermia (sp?). Let me tell ya not as humane as some might think. I read into this when my Betta was on it's last leg and I knew I couldn't save it. Thankfully he passed away before I got up the corage to euthenize him. I hate having to kill things. Of course there's always the queen of hearts method for the less skitish. Chop the head off just below the gills fast and painless.
-Neo SIthlord

[pinballqueen]

Fish, being cold-blooded, don't suffer hypothermia in quite the same way that a mammal does. Their system just slows down to the point that it doesn't work anymore... but, clove oil or beheading seems to be faster and less painful.

As far as ecosystem damage goes....

If a fish CAN get past the sewer treatment plant, yes, it would be able to escape into the local waterways. It is doubtful it would survive that journey through hundreds of gallons of... well... you know. But, if there were a particularly tough fish out there, it might happen, you never know. People with septic tanks don't have that problem, but it's still a really nasty way of killing your fish, if you ask me. How would you like to die in a cesspool? Ugh....

When at all possible, I like to just let them die by natural means so I don't have to do it. Aggressive fish go back to the store, and sick fish die on their own in a quarantine tank. It is against my nature to kill anything.

[daveedka]

It seems very unlikely that a fish could survive sewage treatment, but it isn't impossible, and does happen. It largely depends on treatment type, and duration, there are still places (fairly modern places) in this country where raw sewage is allowed to dump in to our rivers without treatment, and other places where raw sewage goes in and the municipality pays a clean-up fine and that is it. these are the primary places where fish stand a chance. Either way quick and clean is in my opinion the only option. I was raised with alittle more reality than most people are faced with, so it doesn'tbother me to do what I have to. un needed suffering is what bothers me. PBQ is correct in that cold blooded creatures don't respond the same to hypothermia, this is why freezing works well. The reason fish get sick when exposed to colder temps is due to the fact that their metabolic rate slows, and hinders there defenses agianst disease and parasites. I still prefer to fast freeze with Co2 or some other gas because it takes mere seconds at the most. But the fish really doesn't know the difference if he freezes slow.

? :OT:

RTR on the clove oil idea, is there any long term effect of using this as an anesthetic, I was thinking about the stress involved in capturing bigger cichlids, and thought this might be a way to subdue them for tank removal with little or no damage. Would it work?

[RTR]

The trick would be removal of the material from the water itself afterward. It is stable, and must be removed or everybody stays under. 100% water changes are not simple.

If you have pressurized CO2, a short-term overdose will make most fish groggy and is easily removed with strong aeration.

The flushing bit for me is undesirable not as much for the dead fish as for the condition that resulted in its death or euthanasia - there are multiple drug-resistant septicemias coming in w/SE Asian bred fish that I would not like to see introduced into our waterways. Sewage processing does not produce sterile water.

[daveedka]

Thanks RTR, I don't have pressurized Co2 at home, only at work. Also have access to liquid nitrogen which I can bring home alittle bit of if needed, someday I'm sure I'll have CO2 in the basement, untill then I'll just keep genlty capturing fish in the dark with a red light.

[got_nailed]

I though the sewer were dumping in to a big concrete sespools to be treated. If this is the case and are fish are living through that then there is something wrong. There are killing 98% of the bacteria in the water and the stuff they use would kill a fish. Think about this your morning crap is not just going in to the river…. Lol lets go fishing down by the river and get us some floaters.

Ok but IMO it would not hurt anything to flush your fish if your water is being treated with proper care. Now it could be that some waste management plants are not doing there jobs, but I would think if a fish would hit a holding pond with your morning crap it would kill them. What about all the Ammonia in your pee. I think if the system is working then there is nothing to wary about. I do have a sepitank where I live and have dig it up for it to do pumped a few times but nothing could live in it.

[daveedka]

I though the sewer were dumping in to a big concrete sespools to be treated. If this is the case and are fish are living through that then there is something wrong.

This is the case with normal operation, BUT in times of flooding, or problems amounts of raw sewage usually in the form of slush (yuck) do go into our waterways. Dublin Ohio pays fines on a fairly regular basis for allowing this to happen, and Columbus is exempt from the fines so when it happens thay don't even pay. In a real sense the amounts are low, so the natural environment cleans it up pretty well, but I still don't and never will eat fish from the scioto river, the ohio or the missisipi because of this. In addition, waste water treatment actually enhances bacteria growth for rapid decomposition, it is still a nasty environment and I agree the odds of fish surviving are astronomical, but it can and has happened, consider the water quantities that go through without the introduction of waste it is a large percentage.
Lastly, RTR brings up a good point with the micro organism issue, non-native species of any size impact the environment in some way or another, and I wouldn't want to introduce anything big or small in my local waters. I have always flushed fish after euthanizing them, but probably won't in the future.

[happychem]

Besides, in most cases waste water "treatment" basically just means removing solid, um, detritus. This is just done by settling it, the bulk liquid proceeds to rivers. This in itself is not a harmful practice except in highly populated areas. But I digress. The bottom line is that the treatment of the water going out is not the same intensive compartmentalised treatment as the water on its way in. The majority of the liquid goes straight to the local rivers & lakes. And since living fish don't sink like poo...

I've forgotten the details of the case that brought this to my friend's attention, but I think it took place in Michigan (again, only guessing, this was about a year ago). There's a state law that prevents people from wiping out indiginous species (go figure), no matter how much of a pest they may be. Also, the law defines an indiginous species as any animal living wild for over a year. It was nearing the anniversary of the release of an aquarium fish, I think of the carp family but it could have been a catfish. The locals were struggling to kill off as many of these as they could. The local ecosystem was perfect for this fish and it was rapidly taking over. Anyway, sorry I can't provide better details or a link to the story, but it does happen.

I like the clove oil suggestion btw. Partly because I love kitchen chemistry...

[OrionGirl]

A quick point for those readers who have some of the more obscure, or marine organisms. Many animals with spines also have toxins. Catfish and lionfish are two good, common examples. The toxins in these spines remain potent after the death of the animal. For anyone working in the sewer or garbage industries, fish flushed or thrown out without bagging can pose a serious threat. If someone grabs the body and is stuck, they can be poisoned, and likely get a very serious infection as a result. Always wrap the animal securely, pinning any spines close to their body to minimize the hazards. Larger fish shoulodn't be flushed, simply because they could potentially block up a system, requiring money and effort to clear.

[daveedka]

Good point OG, being an avid fisherman, I can attest to the pain dealt out by catfish, fortunately I haven't tried the lionfish thing yet.

[virangos]

Clove oil, Hmmmmm. I like that. I always use the Vodka cocktail.
Doesn't take long and the fish don't seem to suffer any from it {Other than dying of course} But the clove oil sounds like a good way to go .
Flush? NEVER.
I always bury my dead. Some times the cat digs them up but thats mostly in the winter when I cant get them to deep. I figure the plants love the water from water changes so just go to the source.

[got_nailed]

I have flushed a few dead fish but I have a septic tank so after her in there a year I know there good and dead. Just the thought of opening it for a pump.

Ok what’s next.