Newbie needs help with cycling....

[bigstick]

Hi everyone. I'm totally new to this forum and the hobby...my first post:) I look forward to being a regular.

I've read almost all the post here about cycling and need advice on fishy cycling....yeah I'm dying to see something moving in my aquarium.

I've got an 80 G aquarium set up and running for a couple days. Already added Stresscoat and pH of 7.0. I'm planning on starting with 6-10 swordtails and/or tiger barbs and several plants. The LFS said I can have some of their gravel (app. 2 lbs.) when I buy the fishes.

First, am I overdoing it on the number of fishes? I was hoping to have a nice school to start with. Can I actually start with more?

Second, what's an acceptable ammonia level to start with? and nitrite level?

Third, since this is a pretty large aquarium for a starter, do I need the daily water changes? It'll be quite a bit of water.

Fourth, once cycling is complete, can I introduce any type of fish or are there some kinds that won't tolerate newly cycled aqauriums? I'm dying to bring home that fire eel and black ghost I've been eyeing this entire weekend.

I'm sure to be asking more question as things progress. Thanks all!!!

[Neo Sithlord]

I'm new myself but the offer of 2 lb. of gravel will help you cycle the tank. If you haven't looked at fishless cycling it seems to be the way to go. Check out this link http://www.aquamaniacs.net/cyclingsafelyfishless.html it sums it up pretty well. If they are willing to give you the gravel and are willing to wait for you to add fish untill you cycle the tank that would be best for the fish. It does take a while to do a fishless cycle but the more you have to seed the tank the faster it goes. Just something to look into. In my opinion you've come to the right place these boards are really active and I've learned alot just reading the posts here and have gotten some good feedback (emotional support really lol) in my on going fishless cycle.
-Neo Sithlord

[cattlegrid_79]

Hi Bigstick. Welcome to AC.

Firstly, it would help if you could tell us what type of filter you are using. If you are using an undergravel filter, then getting the gravel from you LFS will help quite a lot with the cycling. THe idea of cycling, as i'm sure you've read, is to establish the colony of bacteria in your filter media to break down the wastes. On a UGF setup, the gravel is the filter media where the bacteria will colonise.

However, if you are using an internal or other type of cannister style filter which contains the filter media, then the gravel won't really help you a great deal. It would be better if you could get some filter media (sponges etc) from an established filter.

If this isn't available, then you need to cycle from scratch. I use fishy cycling over fishless all the time (much to the disdain of fellow posters here). If you are strict with your maintenance and regular water changes and testing, then you can do a fishy cycle just as successfully as a fishless cycle, without losing any livestock.

If you were to go down this route, I would use the swordtails rather than the barbs (but using something bulletproof, like platies, would be better). Once your ammonia and nitrite levels are 0 consistently for a few days, then you can GRADUALLY start adding some more fish.

Once you are cycled, you are only cycled for that current stocking level of fish. Therefore, it is essential that you don't add lots more fish straight away. Some fish will require a mature tank to be healthy. Those fish you have suggested may not be the best fish for a first tank.

You will make mistakes and you will learn from them. That's the only way to get better.

[JSchmidt]

Any source of benefical bacteria - gravel or filter media - will help speed the cycle. Filter media tends to be a preferential site for bacterial growth, because of the continuous flow of water providing food and oxygen, but the bacteria you want will grow almost all surfaces in a tank.

You'll get the most bang for your buck if you put the gravel where it will have water passing thru it; that could be in the filter (in a filter bag or nylon stocking) or in front of a powerhead.

You want to keep ammonia below 1 ppm and nitrite below .5 ppm while cycling. Water changes are the order of the day. As long as ammonia/nitrite exceed 0 ppm, your bacterial colony will grow, so don't feel you have allow them to rise beyond the levels noted. The limiting factor is the speed with which the bacteria reproduce, not the availability of food (as long as some ammonia/nitrite are present).

When cycling with fish, your bacterial colony (what we often call the biofilter) will only grow sufficiently large enough to support the fish you currently have. Every time you add substantially to the bioload, you'll experience a mini-cycle (spikes of ammonia and nitrite), because there will be a lag before the bacterial colony grows to handle the additional ammonia/nitrite. So add fish slowly after your initial cycle, and be sure to test for ammonia/nitrites.

How much water should you change, during your cycle or after? Rather than selecting some arbitrary percentage, allow your tank to instruct you. In an uncycled tank, ammonia and nitrite test results should guide you. After cycling, use nitrates to guide your need for changes. Most agree that 40 ppm or less of nitrates is fine; under 20 ppm is great. If you want to change less water, during or after cycling, stock more lightly. The more fish you have, the more water you'll have to change.

HTH,
Jim

[happychem]

An 80g is certainly a big tank, but then, my 'big' tank is 33g...

A tank of this size really calls for fishless. The bigger the tank, the longer it will take to do a fishy cycle. Conversely, due to the volume of water, the safer the fishy cycle should be since by adding a small number of fish at a time, you'll have plenty of dilution.

But back to fishless, with a tank of any size, you can add straight ammonia to bring the level to 5ppm. If you've got a good source of bacteria with which to innoculate your tank, your cycle will be comparatively quick. Not only that, but once complete, you sould have a quite adequate bacterial colony to support full stocking, or am I wrong on this?

As for the water changes, order yourself a python from big als. That is quite a bit of water to lug back and forth with buckets, and since there's a better way...

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by happychem

A tank of this size really calls for fishless. The bigger the tank, the longer it will take to do a fishy cycle. Conversely, due to the volume of water, the safer the fishy cycle should be since by adding a small number of fish at a time, you'll have plenty of dilution.



I'm not sure this is true... the time to cycle is a function of the bioload (which directly relates to amount of ammonia/nitrite produced) and the growth of the beneficial bacteria. I'm not sure how size of tank is a factor...

For example, if you had 5 tetras in 10 gallon tank, and 50 tetras in a 100 gallon tank, would you expect the smaller tank to cycle more quickly (assuming both tanks have similar turnover in filtration)? Alternatively, would you expect a fishless cycle where a 10 gallon and a 100 gallon tank, both dosed to x ppm ammonia, to progress faster with the smaller tank? Why? I'm not sure I understand...

If a larger tank is stocked proportionately lighter than a smaller tank, it should cycle more quickly, right? If it were stocked proportionately heavier, it would require more time to cycle, no? I think stocking level is the key variable, not tank size.

Maybe I'm overlooking something?

Thanks,
Jim

[greenterrorrr]

I would agree with cattlegrid_79 as I too always do a fishy cycle, again with much disdain to fellow posters. I've been doing it for over five years and haven't had any reason to do it different. If you do it right you won't lose any of your stock. Chose some hardy fish to cycle with. Also with a larger tank the dilution will make it better for a fishy cycle as opposed to a 10g.

[MissMeow]

Now, I am not getting on my high horse, nor am I criticizing, but the reason for doing a fishless cycle is not that you JUST don't lose any fish, it's also that you are not harming the fish in any way. Just because your fish survive and seem healthy, doesn't mean that they didn't sustain any damage that will shorten or diminish their overall life span. I am also in the middle of a fishy cycle (with help from Bio-Spira), but I wish that I'd gone fishless.

[tomm10]

Bigstick, with a tank that large, that much gravel from and established tank, and that small number of fish, you may notice little or no rise in the levels of ammonia and nitrite.

The gravel will help to establish at least a small colony of bacteria while the small number of small fish in that much water probably won't lead to a very high concentration of ammonia and nitrites. That being said, you will still have to monitor it very closely. Its a good idea to test the levels of ammonia, nitrites, pH, and nitrates in a cycling tank every day. As long as you show any levels of ammonia or nitrites, a water change is warranted.

How much water you change is really based on the levels detected. Over 1ppm of ammonia or .25 of nitrites really should warrant at least a 25% or 20g water change. Expect to do these daily while cycling with fish.

As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if it took a few days for the levels to rise with 6-10 tiger barbs in there and even then I doubt it would spike really high. In any event, when you're done cycling, wait at least a week or two before adding more fish. When you do add more, remember to only add a few at a time. The bacteria in the tank will only be able to support the fish already in there so unless you want another cycle, add slowly.

Also, if you decide on fishless cycling, the gravel from the established tanks will still help to speed up the cycle.

Tom

[happychem]

JShmidt, Tom basically made the point for me, but to clarify, what I was trying to point out (ineffectually it would seem) is that for a bigger tank, you'd need more fish and unless he's setting out to have a great big platy tank, it just seems that fishless is the way to go. I suspect that it's me who's missing something, having more theoretical knowledge than practice...

With smaller tanks it's easy, in my mind, to add one or two fish, wait, add a couple more, repeat as necessary, whereas with a larger tank one or two fish won't have much effect, but adding a lot would run up a pretty tab, at least vs. a bottle of ammonia.

[Hound]

With an 80g tank I think going the fishy way will be ok especially if he is planting at the same time. Bigstick you say you will be planting, but you don't mention what sort of lighting and substrate you are using. I would be thinking with that tank you should have a minimum of 120 watts of lighting on for about 10-12 hours a day. Since you do say you will be planting I would start there if I were you. I would use something like anacharis or asian ambulia as a starting plant and in some mass. Its relatively inexpensive and fast growing so that should help keep algae down. What other plants you can add depend upon wattage, but if you are using a low wattage setup (in your case 80 to 140 watts) you should probably go with crypts and java fern to start with and add ambulias as you go. With sufficient plants in your tank you could add your swordtails and probably never even see a buildup of ammonia. Once you get your aquarium going build slowly on your masses of fish, but get planted rather quickly or algae will outpace your plants.

One thing I'm wondering. Is your ph testing at 7.0 or did you add something to get it there? If you used a chemical to get it there you should check and see if it is a phosphate buffer. That can also grow algae in masses rather than the plants you want. A natural ph of 6.5 to about 7.8 is usually better than using chemicals.

[bigstick]

Wow!!! Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I was hoping to get a couple replies but to see this many... You guys are truly dedicated. I'm extremely greatful.

What I have set up now is a Fluval 404 cannister filter. I'll ask the LFS guy if he'll be willing to sell one of the carbon media from his Fluval. That and the 2 Lbs of gravel will help.

I did add acid buffer to the tank to get the pH of 7.0. I'm not too sure how long it'll stay at that level but I'll check daily. This won't affect the plants I hope... t's Seachem and the label said it's safe.

As for plants...I'm not sure how many to start with or what kind but I'm thinking about 5-6. The only problem is with my substrate. I have fine sand which might not support plants. I'll probably have to make little pockets of gravel and laterite for each plant. Any suggestions with planting in sand????

Again, Thanx for all the help. If you have any other suggestions, they'll be much appreciated.

[Hound]

If your LFS also uses a Fluval cannister filter forget about getting carbon media from one and try to get a tray of the ceramic bio rings out of one. Even half of a tray would be a good starter, but you have to have fish in the tank to keep the bacteria in there alive. The acid buffer probably won't be a problem and will wear off with water changes anyway. Sand should make a decent substrate for plants. As for what plants you should try depends upon your lighting. Also keep in mind that if you do have high lighting and a little bit of plants you will be inviting algae to go nuts in your tank. Low lighting is much more forgiving about algae, but you are more limited on what plants you can select and they don't grow nearly as fast.

[bigstick]

The lighting I have now is a 30 W Aqua-glo...w/ a pink tint to it. I was told this is enough lighting.

I put some corkscrew vallisneria, laceplant, hygrophilia, and pondweed in today. The sand substrate was a little hard to work with because the fine grains would just fill in the holes I made with my fingers. It wasn't too hard just pushing the plant down though.

I went ahead and put in 5 mollies to begin with. I'll probably add some barbs tomorrow.

I'll keep an update.

BTW, what part of CA are you in Hound?

[LuckyJGuy]

Hey bigstick, hope I can help since Im a newb too, but we'll see... anyway

I have a 20g planted with a couple of those corkscrew val's you have and a couple other plants. I don't know how "low light" those plants are, but if you can I think it would be best to some how double the wattage in the tank. Even if you doubled the wattage you would still be under 1 watt per gallon, you would actually be around .75 w per gallon like mine. This is just a thought, I don't know if that one 30 watt bulb is good enough, it may be, but those are just my thoughts.

Also, good luck with your fishy cycle! I lost one fish doing mine, but by testing frequently and doing daily water changes I was able to avoid any more deaths, and I never allowed the ammonia level or nitrIte level to get above 1ppm.

Hope Im right about the low light stuff, if Im not Im sorry just trying to help! LOL

HTH

[tomm10]

I agree with Hound that you should drop the carbon filter idea and go for bio rings. If all you can get is filter floss or the like that will work too. Just stuff it into one of the trays in the Fluval.

I would stay away from the acid buffering materials. I'm assuming you used something like pH Up or Down or something along those lines. Products like that will only send your tank on a pH roller coaster ride. In the end you don't really need them anyway. Its far more important that your fish be in a stable pH rather than some pinpointed number that you try to hit. If you really want to alter your pH there's a lot more involved than just adding a few drops of some chemical. If you want to try to tackle it, start reading here (http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/hardwater.shtml)

A 30 watt bulb probably isn't enough to grow much in your tank unfortunately. Generally speaking, 1-1.5W per gallon or 80-120 is about the minimum for growing even low light plants with any success. At around 2-3 WPG you start to have a lot more options. Lighting can get expensive but you can get creative if looks aren't that important (shop lights are cheap) or if you're handy (DIY light canopy).

Tom

[bigstick]

Yeah...I do need to increase the Wattage....say 80 or up. If I don't use the Acid buffer, what do you suggest to stablizethe pH? How about peat gravel for the Fluval?

Thanx again...I'm learning so much my little brain's going burst.

[tomm10]

Originally posted by bigstick
Yeah...I do need to increase the Wattage....say 80 or up. If I don't use the Acid buffer, what do you suggest to stablizethe pH? How about peat gravel for the Fluval?

Thanx again...I'm learning so much my little brain's going burst.

The key there is "stable". Provided your water has a decent buffer your pH should stabilize on its own. It might stabilize at 7.2 or 6.8 but it should level out. Your fish will appreciate that stabile number far more than any particular number.

The cycle itself and the introduction of plants may alter the water chemistry enough to cause the pH to fluctuate a bit so its a little early to worry about adjusting the pH unless it is really low or really high.

I really suggest you read RTR's article that I listed in my previous post. Its a really good article to explain the basics of water chemistry. Its a tricky subject and changing one element of your water chemistry will alter another. It is highly inadvisable to start messing with it until you have at least a basic understanding of what's going on.

Tom

[Hound]

Generally speaking I tell people not to worry about their ph as long as its not fluctuating and is somewhere between 6.5 and 7.8. I'm really not sure on the dimensions on an 80g tank, but I'm fairly sure its at least 20" or deeper. Given that I would say you need to get to about 120 watts of lighting for plants to work well enough not to drive you nuts. If you are at all handy I would suggest you go with the DIY route using flourescent lighting kits. I spent about $95 do build my hood with 80 watts of light and that included the bulbs. Mine is for a 50g long tank, but I still have enough room for another single lightstrip and a moonlight.

As far as a stable ph in your tank have you tested your Kh? More than likely you won't have to worry about buffering your tank. That being said even peat moss won't always lower a tanks ph depending upon your Kh and how much moss you use. Also the darkening of the water you will get with peat moss use might not be what you are looking for.

BTW, I'm in central Ca Bigstick.

[bigstick]

I see...I haven't tested kH b/c I didn't know how important it was. I had always believed that pH and temp were "extremely" important and all else can come later. But true...it is a little early to wory about anything now. I barely have any fish in there. It looks pretty funny with these 10 little guys with so much space. I think they love the room to swim.

Hound... Central CA. I'm in Socal. OC to be exact.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by happychem
JShmidt, Tom basically made the point for me, but to clarify, what I was trying to point out (ineffectually it would seem) is that for a bigger tank, you'd need more fish and unless he's setting out to have a great big platy tank, it just seems that fishless is the way to go. I suspect that it's me who's missing something, having more theoretical knowledge than practice...

With smaller tanks it's easy, in my mind, to add one or two fish, wait, add a couple more, repeat as necessary, whereas with a larger tank one or two fish won't have much effect, but adding a lot would run up a pretty tab, at least vs. a bottle of ammonia.

That's cool... I was reacting, as much as anything, to the notion that the cycle time has anything to do with tank size. It's really a question of bioload and amount of innoculant, as you all seem to have stated in several different ways... big tanks can be overstocked just as small tanks, but I guess 10 gallon tanks are more prone to being packed with fish than are 200 gallon tanks...

Jim

[bigstick]

Just to update on my cycle... So far none of my fishes have died. I've actually only done one 50% water change. Don't get too excited just yet. My amonia hasn't gone higher than .25 and my nitrite is still 0. I don't know what this means but I hope it's good. Is it?????

I upgraded the light on my tank. I'm now at 80W. My plants look like they appreciate it. Some of the plants were wilting before but they're looking healthier since the upgrade.

I stopped using the pH buffers. My pH is at a high 7.8, kH is 9. How are these numbers? Is there any way to lower the pH?

Here are the specs so far....
80 gal (48x15.5x24)
Fluval 404 filter
water temp 79-80
8 platy (LFS said they're easier to start with than barbs)
2 algae eaters
7 plants

[bigstick]

Just added more plants today. My ammonia reading is still .25 and nitrite is 0. pH is 7.8

Nothing has died yet. Some of the plants are starting to tip over. I think the water flow is too strong for them.

Here's how it looks so far.