HELP! Newbie ready to give up...

[golfnfish]

Help. I'm new to this great hobby (or so I thought) and have been having nothing but trouble. Here's my setup:

5 gal bow front (I know, should've started with bigger tank, but Gpa got this for the kids)
pH - 7.6
Ammonia - 0.0
Nitrite - 0.0
KH - 6
GH - 10
74-78 degrees
20% h20 changes every other week
several water sprites

Started the tank in August before learning about cycling, lost fish, then cycled tank, more fish lost, then things settled. But I can't seem to keep any fish alive more than 3-4 weeks. I've had neons, otos, guppies, bumble bee gobys and platys. I now know the neons and gobys weren't the best fis for a newbie. Now I've got an adult Gold Dust molly and one of her 10-day old fry along with one oto. Tonight I lost the other Gold Dust who I think was about ready to give birth. Got home from Turkey Day meal and she was pushin' up daisies. We were heartbroken.
I'm not sure what to do next. The kids really like having the tank in their room, but I'm getting tired of all the sadness.

Any advice would be welcomed.

[Darkangel]

Okay golfnfish, I hear you on the constant losses. It is a sad thing but it is an unfortunate end in trying to care for animals. You do not say wheather or not there is a heater in this tank. I am going to guess no as most small tanks do not. If not that is in large part your problem. Does the tank have a filter? It should have at the very least an air powered sponge filter. If there is no filter cut the below mentioned fish numbers in half.Who feeds the fish and how much? How often are water changes and gravel cleaning done? If it is not you or more then one person doing the feeding you need to change that. A small tank this size needs like one or two flakes of food per day about the size of a penny in total. Perhaps even down to 3/4 the size of a penny. Next you need to change about 25% of the water once a week while cleaning the gravel. Your temperature is far to low for mollies. They would prefer if it were at about 80* and a little salt added. For your tank I would recomend you get 4 White Clouds, and 2 of any type of cory. The otto should be okay. The tank may seem sparse but do not be tempted to add more fish. Keep the temperatures where they are for this fish collection. No need to add a heater if there is not one. Also what type of lighting? If it is incandesent that will drive your temperature up and down which is another bad thing. Next I would suggest you go buy a basic beginers fish book and give it a quick once over. There are some decent books out there in the $10 range. They will help you out a lot. That should get you started. If this does not help ask here for more help.

[golfnfish]

Darkangel, thanks for the info. My tank does have a Bio-filter and I got a heater several weeks ago when the weather changed and the tank temps dropped to 68-70 overnight. There is an incandescent light that's on 8-10 hours in the afternoon/everning. And I added a small amount of aquarium salt. I do the feeding and am giving only a very small amount every day or two.

I'll try more frequent water changes and see if I can keep the last three soldiers alive.

[Serrateeth_2002]

Problem here is the tank is too small,nitrite and ammonia levels may skyrocket considering the number of fishes unless you have a good filter,if the temp changes is drastic,the fishes may die from it,most of the fishes are brackish,only 2 types of fishes you mentioned are FW,otos cannot handle salt,you should restart with easier to keep fishes like danios and white clouds,make sure you don't mix with the wrong fishes like FW with BW and tropical with coldwater.

[ewok]

a bio-filter..... bio-wheel? possibly an eclipse system?

i'm sorry, i have a few questions before i would even guess at this....

need a little more specifics on the "bio-filter".... is it a hood unit like an eclipse, or maybe a HOB... or maybe even just an air driven box?

is there an air source like a stone or one of those air operated gizmos?

what is actually left in the tank for fish?

do you have test kits for ph, ammonia and nitrites? those are the most important generally, you can also probably get your pet store to test it for you.

have there been any symptoms about the deaths? any strange actions? looks? colors? you said you thought the last one was pregnant.... was she so fat the scales were sticking out?

personally from what i have seen, none of the fish you have posted seem super strong to me either, i mostly keep cichlids and catfish but i have kept a couple of those myself when i was new and had bad luck. they wouldn't be my first choice for a cycling tank.

post back whatever answers you can and hopefully we can come up with something to get you on the right track........

i would run with the water changes with fresh dechlorinated water for now, it might not seem to help but it definately won't harm them either. water quality is very important in this hobby.

[redwing]

Hang in there golfnfish. Most of us have gone through fish losses and tank problems like yours. If you stick with it you will be rewarded with many years of happy fishkeeping. What are your nitrates? If you don't have this test then often lfs will test for free. I still take a sample to lfs just to double check my kit. Like others have said frequent water changes won't hurt. Personally I wouldn't add any fish until you get to the bottom of your problem.

[Cichlid Woman]

Hi there,

It's great that your kids are interested in the fish--could get to be a major family hobby. If you can keep it going. Losing fish hurts, I know. But if this hobby grabs you, it will become a passion! And you'll begin to gravitate toward a bigger tank. The best size for beginners is a 20-gallon long tank, I believe. It is MUCH more difficult to get things running smoothly in a smaller tank, because the conditions change too fast. (In a bigger tank, any problem doesn't affect the entire tank so quickly, etc., giving you more time to fix it.) A couple of questions:

I don't know your level of expertise, so I hope this isn't a stupid question, but you do know you have to add a dechlorinator to the new water before you add it to the tank during water changes, right? (Water straight from the tap contains stuff that can kill your fish ...)

Also, I don't like that incandescent light. It will definitely fluctuate the heat in the tank at least a bit, and that stresses fish. Fluorescents don't do that.

One last question--how old are the kids? They're not reaching in there to play with the fishies, are they? (That could also stress the fish enough to kill them over any length of time.) I've got a kid myself, and that's the first thing she tried to do ... thought it was worth asking.

Don't give up!!

-- Pat

[famman]

Don't give up!
Do get florescent lighting.
Don't get single otos, gobys.
Do get platys, guppies.
Don't get too many fish.
Do spend hours of fun look at the fish and explaining the nitrogen cycle to your fry (I mean kids).

Keep at it. My wife has a picture perfect platy tank in my son's room. 10 gal, 6 platys, 1 snail. We've started to see the occasional fry, so we've done a few things help them hide.

good luck
:)

[Fishsmurf]

Gotta agree with the famman and chiclid woman. Keep at it, still a newbie myself but once you start to see the results you will be addicted! There are plenty of people here who will help in anyway they can & plenty of great advice. It is honestly worth it.....:D

[golfnfish]

Thanks for all the support. It's nice to know I'm not the first one to kill a bunch of fish before getting the hang of it.

Some answers to your very good questions:

Tank - MiniBow 5 with Whisper Power Filter-hob, filter changed monthly
Stress Coat added with each water change.

The kids are 7 and 9 and they aren't reaching into the tank.

Lighting - There's not much room in the hood for any bulb other then the incandescent that came with the setup.

There is NOT an airstone or any other air going into the tank other than from the filter.

I do test for ammonia, nitrItes, ph, kh and gh. Don't have a nitrAte test kit. Perhaps I should get one.

Here's what's left in the tank - one oto, one adult Gold Dust molly and one of her 12-day old fry.

The prego(?) fish that died last night looked fine, no scales sticking out, or anything else I could see unusual. She was hanging out in the gravel most of yesterday. I figured it was her way of getting ready to pop out her fry. What would be normal behavior for a molly ready to have babies?

Maybe I'm just having a streak of bad luck.

Thanks again for the help. Please keep the ideas coming as the kids and I aren't ready to give up just yet. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[famman]

My humble advice; dump the stress coat, just use plain dechlorinator/dechlorimanator. Bump your water changes to 20% weekly, and vacuum the gravel. Test for nitrAte, could be your problem. Only add one or two fish every few weeks, and with a 5 gallon, you can only keep a few fish happy anyway. Try minnows like white clouds. That way you can have several.
good luck
:)

[Archer]

Yeah, hang in there, golfnfish.
It's usually very exciting when one is new to the hobby, but it can become frustrating when the fish starts to die, which can be due to cycling, fish incompatibilities, too many fish, too much feeding, not enough water changes, and so on. It's part of the growing pains which most (if not all) of us experience. Once we get a thriving aquarium, it becomes a wonderful (and educational) experience, something which the kids will surely enjoy as well.

Yes, neons, otos, bumble bee gobys, and even Mollies are not really good for newbie's, as they are not as hardy or have special requirements.

I think the previous posts have made good suggestions and hopefully the fish will survive. If not, I suggest getting Platy's, Guppies, or Zebra Danios next time. They make good beginner fish, as they are hardy, colorful, and do well in your ph of 7.6.

Also, try not to keep more than 4 to 5 small fish in the 5 gallon. If you really want to add more fish, a bigger tank (such as an Eclipse 12 gallon) would be better.

Good luck!

[ewok]

have you by chance changed the filter recently?

i'm not really seeing anything glaringly wrong. stress-coat is fine, sort of expensive, i use it myself.... $26 a gallon at www.bigalsonline.com

the things i would suggest are mostly along the lines of....
increasing water changes, at least a gallon a week, dechlorinate the water and try to keep the temperature close.(it should be cool to the touch)
vacuuming, this is another thing that sort of depends on the water changes, the more water changes the less vacuuming. every week would be ideal but possibly overkill.
you need another place for bacteria to grow, next time you change the filter dump the baggie out and maybe rinse it in tap water or dechlorinated water and put it back into the rear of the filter behind the new bag. you don't want it to impede water flow, but you want the water to go through it. this piece isnt for filtering it is strictly a place for bacteria to grow. (you can also use other kinds of floss, but i would suggest the "cut to fit stuff if you want to buy new.)after the new filter you put in gets nasty you can also rinse that in tank/dechlor water..... this will give you much more longevity per filter and save some money. don't worry about the charcoal, use it if it comes with it, but if you just rinse it shouldn't matter if the old stuff stays in. some people would reccomend discontinueing ti entirely, but if you get it free with the bags you might as well use it. only clean the filter or the pad in any given week, do not do both.......

test the water for the next several days for ammonia and nitrites, if the reading are 0 like 3 days in a row then the tank should be safe and you could replace some of the missing stock. i'm not sure i would add more than 1 every week or so, maybe a couple days less but not much. i would sort of start buying towards stronger fish too honestly, danios are good and small, i cycled one of my tanks with red eye tetras too........you could even go back to molly/swordtail types but they are very susceptable to the nitrites i think.

other than that, just keep up your water changes...... if anything seems funny do an extra water change or 2.....

i'm sort of wondering if you are being "too clean" by replacing the filter that often on a newer tank, possibly every time you change the filter you cause at least a small "cycle" spike until the bacteria recover. by adding the extra piece of filter material and only washing one piece at a time you should even be able to decrease the impact of mini-cycles somewhat.

sorry i can't be more helpful, just not picking up an anything as being glaringly wrong.

[fishlips]

I have a 5.5 g and its been running for a year now. It can be done. In fact this little tank is always crystal clear. If you have or make good water, have the filter and heater you should be fine. I have neons and one cory in mine. What is the longest you've had the same fish in the tank? That could be helpful. Try spring water to make sure its not your water source. Feed very little and watch out for ammonia and nitrite spikes. There is so much info on this site your going to be a pro in a year. Read, read and read. Best of luck.

[golfnfish]

Thanks gang. I'm feeilng a little better knowing I'm not doing anything terribly wrong.

I'll try your extra filter media trick Ewok. Kinda makes sense to me. The water is very clear and not much algae troubles since I added the water sprite plants.

Fishlips, the longest I've been able to keep fish alive is about 3-4 weeks. Right now, the molly fry is about 13 days old, so I would think if my tank had anyting drastically wrong, he'd have been history days ago. Or are fry super tough and not as susceptible to the evil things?

What your best advice if I want to add non-tap water? botteld drinking water, spring water, distilled water?

I think I'll add 2 danios to the tank in the next few days.

[Darkangel]

golfnfish, I would NOT add those danios yet. You need to get evrything under control first. If you add more fish now you will just mess everything else up. How many molly fry are there? That tank is really not suitable for more then 3 or 4 of the smaller molly types or 2 of the larger species. Fish can and do live a very long time. My oldest current fish is one I bought in 1988 and she is still going strong. Work with what you have till you get the hang of things. Adding more fish in this situation is just plain bad. If you are going to use other then tap, do not use RO, de-ionized or distilled. These are too pure for fish to live in. Ask at the local store if there is anything you should know about the local tap water. It would have to be pretty bad to be your problem. You can also call the water supply company and ask them for the specifics of your water. They will tell you all you need to know.

[golfnfish]

I'm taking your advice DA and NOT adding any fish just yet. Right now there is one adult Gold Dust molly and one of her fry, about 14 days old.

I tested the nitrAtes tonight and they're between 20-40. Also tested chlorine and it appears to be zero.

I'll just sit tight and hope these last two can tough it out.

[ewok]

your assumption is basically right tho.... fry are generally very easy to kill, all the ones i have had, even from cichlids are pretty weak. if the water was totally off i think you would see it floating.

just for the heck of it, test some dechlorinated water for ammonia. maybe somehow chloramines are getting you. at your ph ammonia is pretty toxic, so maybe adding water dechlorinated recently is causing an ammonia spike because it is chloramines....

just a thought.

[fishlips]

Regular drinking water in the gallon jugs. Something is wrong and you might as well start there. Start uesing it for all your water changes. Soon the whole tank will be spring water. At that point you can rule out water supply as the killer. Otherwise it could be bacteria problem? and or sick fish? Did you clean the tank with any chemicals? You should not be having all kinds of trouble. Fish die but most should last the duration. So far every fish has died off then?

[O-man21]

You might try adding stress coat to the fish

[JeffP]

I didn't notice if your tank is heated...unless I overlooked it. That can cause a big problem if household temperatures fluctuate regularly. I recently added heater to my goldfish tanks because I use a programmable thermostat that lowers the house temp during the day. The tank temperatures fluctuated as much as 5 degrees (or less) during a 24 hour period. The fish were listless on the bottom of the tank and their fins developed large tears. Added a heater and no more problems. I was amazed at how damaging daily temperature changes were to goldfish which otherwise do fine in cooler temperatures.

[Bremer]

Where are you getting your fish? I've found that some stores have sickly fish that often die within a few days or weeks. Compare that to the LFS where the vast majority of my fish have come from and from which all have survived for lengthy periods.

So I would make sure you are getting your fish from a good LFS. You may not be doing anything wrong...you may just be getting fish that have disease.

[Wippit Guud]

Originally posted by O-man21
You might try adding stress coat to the fish


Originally posted by golfnfish
Tank - MiniBow 5 with Whisper Power Filter-hob, filter changed monthly. Stress Coat added with each water change.

Just so confusion doesn't set in, stress coat was always added, and it was suggested that it be discontinues for the moment.

[O-man21]

oh ok. I missed that