Why the hard questions?

[Darkangel]

I really enjoy forum's especially ones about fish. I am a successful fishkeeper with 50 tanks of my own. I do however have a question for all you folks who offer advice. Why when someone who is obviously a beginner do you all want to know pH, KH, nitrate, and nitrite levels and such? These people are confused to begin with and you start asking them for a ton of info that will cost them a bunch more money to get the answers to. These folks just want to keep a simple fish tank. While all these numbers can be helpful they are not necessary to keep a healthy fish tank. As I said I have 50 tanks and I do not and have never had all these test kits. I have great results and have had a number of species successfully reproduce for me. All you are doing is scaring these people away. Fish keeping can and is a very simple matter so long as a few basic concepts are adhered to. We all know what those are. I guess what I am really trying to say, is when dealing with novice fish keepers we should stick to the KISS method. KISS is short for Keep It Simple Stupid. I really think that some people will get scared off easily by all this high tech talk. Let's continue to give advice but slack up on all the technical stuff for the newbies. Just my two cents worth. Frank.

[wetmanNY]

That's fair criticism, Frank . It isn't easy to analyze a post, judge the poster's level of sophistication, and fire off a clear direct suggestion that's do-able for that person.

Having a separate Newbie Forum here at AC is an excellent idea, eh.

[NJ Devils Fan]

Well, when someone asks "why are my fish dying," and give no info about their tank, it's kind of hard to help them.

[Rocketman]

Same. I think we may need to know the pH, and the Ammonia if the tank has just been set up, and maybe the NitrAtes, esspicially if they have live plants, but I, like DarkAngel, have never had any other test kits besides pH and Ammonia, the latter of which I don't even think works. Maybe if we still can't come up with a solution with this info, we can tell them to take their water to an LFS and have it tested, and ask if they test for all the kH and stuff, this way they don't have to buy a new test kit.

[Darkangel]

When someone asks why are my fish dying? Do you really think knowing those parameters are going to help you nail down the problem? I would think better luck and advise would be had starting with the simple stuff. Water temp, heater, light type, feeding schedule, water changes and compatibility problems. I really doubt that PH has killed a lot of fish in peoples tanks. We tend to buy our fish in the same places we live, which means we use the same water as the store. If there was something really wierd about the local water I would expect the store to tell people. I think that a need to know all these numbers should only be needed once all other problems are eliminated. People who ask this question really do not want a lesson in chemistry. They want simple answers with things they can do. As far as judging a persons skill level the question and information provided are a pretty good indication of their ability. Like I said I do not own any test kits at all and I do well enough. Just my two cents here but I really think just sticking to the basics will help these folks out a lot more and not chase anyone away.

[Richer]

A person's water condition can greatly help us find out what the problem is. You can infer a lot when someone tells you what their ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are. Whether or not, the tank has cycled, whether or not his/her tank is overstocked, underfiltered, or if not enough water changes are done.

It is difficult to suggest a solution when you do not know what the cause is. Treat the cause and you will never have the symptoms. Knowing the cause of the problem _will_ decrease the likelyhood of one of us giving the wrong advice.

I have to agree though, in most cases, pH and water hardness generally has nothing to do with fish death's... but everything else (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) does.

-Richer

[Shiftaltumlock]

10-4

I as the person to give me as much information about the tank as possible. You have to know every parameter in some cases. If this is too confusing to the person asking the questions, then they can just say so and I would try to come up with a logical solution at that point. It is pretty much the same thing in my job. I work on computers. I ask the user to give all info they can on the problem. I then decide what info is usefull or not. Sometimes it can be something bizare that leeds to the problem. So knowing all we can gives us the best shot at fixing it.

Umm! I think someone said this allready, but here it is again.

[wetmanNY]

Originally posted by Darkangel :

. I really doubt that PH has killed a lot of fish in peoples tanks.

I think Darkangel's right on here. But if you hear that tapwater of 7.6 drops to 5.6 in the aquarium, you have a handle on how to help. Sometimes it's hard to resist adding, "Ammonium converting to ammonia as pH rises is the hidden "pH shock" stresser" because others are listening in too, and who can tell which chance remark will ring a bell?

People who ask this question really do not want a lesson in chemistry. They want simple answers with things they can do.

Darkangel, sometimes there's a single simple point in the tank's chemistry that can be explained in two sentences. If a poster doesn't know why they're being told to do thus-and-so it's all unnecessarily mysterious.

As far as judging a persons skill level the question and information provided are a pretty good indication of their ability... I really think just sticking to the basics will help these folks out a lot more and not chase anyone away.

Absolutely agree. Sometimes the simple threads spin out into complications, after the basic advice has been given, because we do have to be entertained and learn from each other's give-and-take too.

[ewok]

i always suggest a fish store for getting tested and avoiding buying things i thought.......

alot of times it is the stupid little answers that solve the problems, up until that point it is all just wild shots in the dark. ph can be HUGE indicator in tank stocking and maintenance, not to mention ph shock problems. ammonia directly relates to the toxins present and if there is too much stuff going on like decayed material. nitrite is the hardest growing bacteria and occasionally this issue needs to be addressed...... personally those are the important 3 for me.

would you buy any other animal without knowing how to care for it? i think that question sums it up.... other animals have other defenses.... fish don't, they just die. never see a fish peeing on the carpet because it can't go in the tank because of excess wastes........... a fish cant move away from it's wastes...... you'll never see a dog laying in its mess, unless it's REAL sick.............

personally i almost never use my test kits, but generally alot of problems relate to those 3 tests. sure you could just recommend a water change....... but how much without concentrations of toxins? and what if that water changes alters the ph drastically, especially with ammonia present.......? oops, sorry, i killed your fish. :rolleyes:

tests are very important for new people i think. it is something they need to know and helps them understand it alot.

[Kit Walker]

I agree that to the beginner testing water parameters can be quite scary or daunting. But in truth fish dying is usually almost 100% linked to a water parameter. Perhaps when LFS sell an aquarium package they should include a basic water testing kit.
eg. Eye problems are often caused by ammonia. If someone can tell us they have high ammonia then the board can then direct them to dealing with ammonia issues. Also outbreaks of death through dropsy can be linked to high nitrites. If a beginner can tell us they have high nitrites and deaths, then the board can help them with nitrite managment.

I know some testing kits are complex. But there are a lot more user friendly color matching ones on the market at an acceptable cost as opposed to the cost of restocking a tank.

[JSchmidt]

Some people like to be told what to do without any explanation. Others won't follow through if they don't understand why they're being suggested to this or that. It's very hard to know, from the usual initial post ("My fish are dying!") what the problem may be. My assumption (maybe wrong) is that most people who come here, given the opportunity and clear explanations) want to learn about fishkeeping. Providing an explanation along with a suggestion for action may help a person avoid the same problems in a month, or with their second tank.

As for the barrage of replies asking for water parameters, most LFSs will test for the common water parameters. In some cases, that testing isn't possible or available, and usually we try to help the best we can without that info. But when free testing is available and the poster chooses not to use it, that is a different story, and it is predictive, I think, of the extent to which someone will take care of their fish.

Water quality is pretty important to a fish's health, so knowing a bit about the water helps us figure out what's going on.

Jim

[Finzzup]

Originally posted by Darkangel
Why when someone who is obviously a beginner do you all want to know pH, KH, nitrate, and nitrite levels and such? These people are confused to begin with....

Frank, I am so glad I read your post! I just started another thread asking about this very thing because the more I read about starting and maintaining a tank, the more confused I become!

My outlook has always been kind of like if I know how to drive the car, add the gas, check the oil and do basic troubleshooting, I should be okay. I don't need to know how the whole car WORKS. :)

Naturally, the car is not a living thing, but you get the idea of how I feel!

And I'm feeling better now. :)

[NJ Devils Fan]

Of course it can help the problem. Their ph could be at like 20 and we wouldn't know it. So we would be able to tell them what to do.

[Hatter]

I agree with you to a certain point. However, I don't see what is scary, complicated or confusing about using most test kits. In my experience testing involves filling a sample cup up to the dotted line, adding X drops of test solution and comparing it to a chart to see if it is past the 'danger' level. In some cases it is as simple as dipping a piece of cardboard in the water and waiting a few moments.

You certainly can't hurt anything by testing or attempting to test the water, it can only help you or others understand what is going on in the tank. The people answering questions are not mind readers. If I was asking a question, I would rather get one or two informed answers rather than a dozen "It might/could be...." answers that you will see when people don't give any tank info. You don't have to understand the numbers the test provides, but providing them will probably help you get the answer you need from someone who does.

[Darkangel]

While I am not saying test results can not be helpful, I am saying that for most situations a valid answer can be found without these factors. See the post by Finzzup here to see how a newbie views these types of things. I will bet that if you asked the right questions you could come up with the right answer for them without these values. I think that the first things that need to be asked are the basics. I think there is a danger here of portraying the hobby as being more complicated then it is. We also need to think of all the people who may read these posts but never actually post a question. They may be researching setting up a tank and get discouraged by what they read. I fear that there may be an idea that fishkeeping is overly technical. I am not bashing anybodies way of doing things, in fact it would be a terrible shame if advice could not be found, but I do believe we need to keep it simple. Think about when you started and how overwhelming you may have found it. Finzzup made a very good analogy between driving a car and fish keeping. You do not need to know exactly how it works to use it. Perhaps a sticky could be made for people who need these questions answered, and telling them what info is needed. Basic info like their experience level, tank size, fish species and numbers, water change schedule, feeding, lighting, heating and temperature, and what the problem they are having is. Perhaps then they would not feel intimidated and others may come forward as well. If after this an answer can not be simply found, then step up to the more technical aspect of the hobby. I sometimes think some folks get carried away with relying on the numbers. In a reef tank I can see where all these parameters are very important but I believe they are far less so in freshwater. Obviously this is somewhat contraversial to some people so everybody please do not be offended by what I have said. I am only stating my own thoughts here and they are not meant to tick any body off. Just something to ponder, Frank.

[famman]

Darkangel,

Don't forget that this board is also a forum for members to hone their peer review techniques. Often those who respond to a post are in a way seeking additional information of their own.
If I post a response to someone's help call making a suggestion or seeking additional information and someone (well, I won't name names), says to me, 'Uh, famman you're missing the obvious, or you are making a silly mistake...' etcetera, I learn from that exchange and the thread author also learns even more from the discussion.
Sometimes the newbie gets trampled all over during the whole discussion, but providing a Newbie forum seems to answer that objection.
Through this board, the general knowledge of all the users is raised by the vigorous exchange of experience, knowledge and opinions. I have learned far more through my association with this board than I ever could have on my own in the same amount of time.
So in a way, the questions regarding ph, ammo, nitrI, nitrA, etc are posted to the author as well as the board in general.
good luck
:)

[appaloosatb]

Originally posted by Kit Walker
Perhaps when LFS sell an aquarium package they should include a basic water testing kit.

I know some testing kits are complex. But there are a lot more user friendly color matching ones on the market at an acceptable cost as opposed to the cost of restocking a tank.

The LFS I work at sells all aquarium kits with a basic freshwater test kit that tests for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and ph. The package instructions are very clear and we go through the basic testing process and info on cycling with all customers before sending them home, whether they like it or not. Believe me, if some of the newbies I've dealt with can handle working the test kits, anyone can; I think monkeys would rate higher on an intelligence test than some of my "regulars" - customers I deal with on a regular basis.

My first piece of advice to any newbie starting a tank is to get a basic test kit (at the very least ammonia and nitrates). You can get small test kits for under $15, which really isn't that much compared to the amount of money you would waste replacing your fish every time they died from bad water levels. When a customer comes in and tells me their water levels are X, X, and X amounts and their ph level has been at X for Z number of weeks, it helps to pinpoint the problem much more quickly. Even just having a customer come in and say "My nitrates were medium pink and they're usually clear, what should I do?" lets me guess where their levels are and I can tell them to do a water change and test again in a couple days, then come back to get new fish if their water tests out "clear".

I agree asking for a lot of chemical information the minute a newbie posts is not only not helping the situation, but also scaring the newbie! :eek: But, I also believe advising a newbie to go spend the $15 on a test kit will help out with diagnosing problems and save them money in the long run.

Good point darkangel! :cool: :)

[Finzzup]

Speaking as the "newbie" that I am, I will definitely admit I was totally overwhelmed when I went searching for information on the cycling of a new aquarium. But, I also know that people refer to their experience and that there is obviously something to it! :)

Someone mentioned getting a basic test kit -- I didn't know there were 'kits' to purchase! I was picturing myself wandering down to the science lab at the college (where I HATE to go but I do because I like the fish tanks and the pet Guinea Pigs) and putting on goggles and using test tubes and smoking, boiling glass jars to do all these tests on my little bitty aquarium!

I absolutely, positively appreciate all the help I've gained from this site and I did read it for WEEKS before finally posting! Reading all the threads here is what encouraged me to get a tank for my Betta. A small move on my part, but already I am eyeing that old 55 gallon tank that's been sitting in our basement for 10 years! My hubby always took care of it when we had it set up at our house in San Antonio -- I had no clue what to do with it!

If you were to ask me for help with your web page or how to write html or javascripts or applets, I would be so thrilled to help you and in my excitement I can guarantee you I will LOSE you in about 5 minutes! haha! I forget that some people are so new with computers they panic when "the mouse is about to fall off the mousepad" -- and yet other times, people can keep right up to speed with what I'm talking about...

Anyway -- I appreciate ALL the help I can get even when it is overwhelming. It was nice to see someone understands this!

(I know -- now you're all thinking "I wish she'd continued to read instead of posting....") -- I get that a lot. :D

[JSchmidt]

I like the car analogy, too. Some people just want their car to go. But if you know absolutely nothing about cars, when you have a problem you're reduced to telling the mechanic things like "it makes a funny noise like grrawwk grawwk everytime I put it in reverse" and you're totally at the mercy of the mechanic.

Fishkeeping's very similar. If someone comes here complaining that their fish is sick or acting funny, we can make all kinds of guesses about the possible causes and some of them will probably be correct. We can also give some suggestions of effective treatments that tend to work for many problems ("change water"). Without some basic test info, though, much of that is shooting in the dark. Even worse, without a basic understanding of what happens in our fish tanks, we are all at the mercy of authoritative-sounding (but often clueless) LFS employees who always seem to have some product that will "take care of that problem."

I'd rather know what's going on, and, truth be told, I have less inclination to help if I know the person wants a quick fix without any understanding of the problem. Why? Because odds are good they'll be back with a similar problem soon. It's hard to get better at something if you're not learning from your experience.

Jim

[RTR]

I ask the "hard questions" routinely. That will give me some lead as to what the status quo is in the tank. I am not here as a tank maintenance service or a LFS. I'm here to help folks learn about their tanks, what happens and why. If posters want a quick fix only and are not intrested in learning, I have nothing for them. If they are willing and anxious to learn how our semi-closed systems operate, I'll work them as much as possible and as long as it takes.

So overall my attitude and aims are similar to JSchmidt's, I'm just not quite as nice about it.

[Wippit Guud]

About that car analogy...


My outlook has always been kind of like if I know how to drive the car, add the gas, check the oil and do basic troubleshooting, I should be okay. I don't need to know how the whole car WORKS.

All well and good... but if you don't know how to use the car, you're going to go and kill something.

And for the newbie who's worried about the term 'water parameters test', it works the exact same way as a pregnancy test, expect you get a value, not a staight out yes or no.

(oh, and to beat the jokers to the punch, you use the aquarium water :P )

[wetmanNY]

Originally posted by Darkangel
I think there is a danger here of portraying the hobby as being more complicated then it is.

That's the essence of Darkangel's sensible point. It's a good innovation to have a separate Freshwater Newbies Forum-- we should all gear our responses to the forum we're responding in.

[Finzzup]

Originally posted by Wippit Guud
All well and good... but if you don't know how to use the car, you're going to go and kill something.


I know how to USE the car -- I just don't need to know about things like how the gas makes it run, what the spark plugs do, what the belt is for, etc., etc., etc.

I know how to tell when the car is out of gas and I know what to do about it. I know how to check my oil and when to change it. I can do the basic maintenance on my car (and on my Harley) and so far, I've done just fine. (I won't mention the accident... it was NOT my fault! :( )

It's the same thing with the aquarium to me. If I know what all these levels are supposed to be at and steps to take to get them there, I can deal with it. But try and explain HOW the ammonia gets into the tank and WHY I shouldn't do this or that, then you lose me and the whole idea sounds like a bad day in science class which I hated in the first place. :)

Eventually, yes, maybe I'll figure out more, but just to start out and want to have a few fish in a tank -- it's scary to read all this info!!!

I'd been reading for awhile and when that newbie forum popped up, I finally felt as if I could ask some questions! So I will continue to READ the other forums and stick with posting in the newbie area. :)

[O-man21]

RTR's got a point, I agree with him. I usually have to ask the same questions too.