Upgrading to bigger tank- need advice!!!

[valval1029]

Hey! I've had a 30 gallon fish only tank for a few years. (too small!)
Thinking of going to a 75 all glass aquarium with the cherry professional stand and canopy. Is it a good idea to get the megaflow tank? Presently I use a fluval 303 canister, but think I should go with a wet/dry this time. I also don't want any tubes hanging from back of tank. Looking at the Pro Clear Aquatics wet/dry with protein skimmer. Is this sufficient? Hoping it's not to difficult to set up.

I want a lot of light. Do you recomend the AGA twin tube or the compact strip (more $)??? I also would like to know your opinions about the bow front glass tanks for marine fish. Is there any distortion? Lastly, I haven't added any copper to my existing tank since January, but the level is still at .15. I'd like my new tank to have live rock and a couple of anemones, but I guess the copper makes this transfer impossible? (I'm getting rid of the 30 gallon)... Does the copper stay in the crushed coral, etc??? Any suggestions? (I think I'd also like to do sand this time instead of crushed coral... What is live sand???)

Well, I think that's it! I presently have 2 percula clowns, 1 royal gramma, an anthias, french angel, green damsel, and large hippo tang. I'm worried they may be crowded. I just got the tang and didn't realize how large he was until I put him in. I've had the other fish almost a year. They seem to be doing well though. I always have a lot of green algae. I stir up my coral, but it returns within a day or two... hmmmm....

I LOOK FORWARD TO ALL OF YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS!!! Thank you!!! :)

[benjen]

OK, there are definately some spots where you can make changes to make the situation healthier for the fish.

Please get that 75 set up as quickly as you can and don't add any fish beyond what you've already got in the 30 until you've done more research. If you want the french angelfish and blue tang to be healthy fish, get at least a 100 gallon. Both need very large tanks as adults and are active swimmers if healthy. You are indeed overcrowded. A 30 gallon can support 3-5 small fish in a healthy manner. More than that and they will not be happy fish. Without those two larger fish, you would have a tank already at the upper end of healthy stocking.

Copper bonds with calcium so that crushed coral is going to give you permanent copper. Crushed coral is also a notorious debris trap that drives up nitrates, which could explain the algae you've experienced, though you probably also want a little more circulation in the 30 gallon than the Fluval provides. Think a bare minimum of 10 times the gph as you have gallons of tank. Extra circulation decreases algae, though a decent protien skimmer, some snails/hermits, a less debris friendly substrate, and a less crowded tank will all help to knock down algae probably more than that. Macroalgaes also are very good for knocking down microalgaes by using up all the nutrients.

When you cycle, do not cycle with fish. Either buy uncured live rock to cycle the tank, or toss in some cocktail shrimp from your deli and let them decompose to cycle the new tank. This both keeps you from unnecessarily torturing a "cycle" fish and gives you a much stonger initial bacteria colony so that you can add more than 1-2 fish a month initially without re-cycling the tank. You should be able to add 3-4 in the first month that way without triggering another cycle.

I wouldn't think about anenomes until you've kept mushroom corals and button polyps alive for a year or so. They live many, many years in the wild and die easily in tanks. They need a bare minimum of 4 watts of power compact (PC) or metal halide (MH) light per gallon and/or expert feeding. (Power compact is generally the minimum lighting I'd recommend for any sort of reef tank. Both PC and MH are considerably brighter than normal flourescent lights.) A decent set of PC lights costs a few hundred dollars. A good set of metal halides can cost noticably more but is the best technology out there for mimicing the intensity of tropical sunlight.

I'm not familiar with the Pro Clear brand of wet-dry filters to make a recommendation there, but another method to consider is simply adding 1-2 lbs of live rock per gallon. This is sufficient to filter most tanks, as the live rock is a perfect home for the bacteria cultures. Live sand is much like live rock in that it is sand filled with microfauna such as plankton, micro-algaes, worms, tiny crustaceans, etc. These tiny creatures help devour the excess waste and nutrients in your tank such as fish waste and uneaten food. If you are interested in learning more about this method and deep sand bed filters, I'd recommend reading the stickied thread in the newbie forum on setting up tanks. (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11232) It sounds like the people who taught you about saltwater fish keeping are using techniques that are a little older than those most commonly in use on this forum.

I also strongly recommend looking up all your fish on this site to get a good idea of their needs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm

Robert Fenner is one of the premier experts on saltwater aquariums out there and he has a lot of good, practical advice available in his online encyclopedia, even though it can take a little while to get used to the set up.

[valval1029]

WoW! Thanks for all of that information... I was getting the feeling after reading things on this forum that I was overcrowded and a little behind the times. The interesting thing is that the fish store owner knows what I have in the tank and didn't discourage me with adding the tang (for $100!) He's been in business since at least the 70s as I used to go there with my dad. His fish are always in excellent condition compared with some of the other stores.

OK, I DO want to make these fish more comfortable ASAP. However, b/c of the copper it seems I will have to start from scratch and then transfer the fish little by little? I was hoping to be able to transfer all of them at once (I know people who have done that when moving to a different home, but I guess the filter, etc... was staying the same) Will I be able to use any of the same water from the 30 gallon tank or the coral? If I decide not to keep any live rock or invertebrates, would that make this transfer quicker/easier? If you don't use copper, what do you do if a fish gets ick or something? Quarintine them? Do I have to use live sand or just play sand? I know live rock is expensive, so I'd rather not use too much of that to cycle.... Maybe the 2 cocktail shrimp. I saw that explained somewhere else on the newbie forum...

Are AGA tanks good or do you recommend another brand/type? I will have more questions later! Thanks,

Valerie

[valval1029]

I don't understand about the filter. Are you saying if I add all of that live rock, I don't need one??? On the same filter questions, what do you think about the wet/drys with a protein skimmer built in?

Val

[benjen]

Val,

There are a lot of people who have done things a certain way for a long time in this hobby. They often have certain successes or failures that are statistically unusual and then fervently recommend what worked for them. Doubtless, your fish store owner (LFS) has had some different results, but there is no real excuse for him to sell you a french angelfish and a blue tang for a 30 gallon if he knew as much as you indicate. I'm forced to guess that he figured that it was a sale and that they'd live "long enough". Far too many people in the aquarium industry think that way, unfortunately.

I was hoping to be able to transfer all of them at once (I know people who have done that when moving to a different home, but I guess the filter, etc... was staying the same) Will I be able to use any of the same water from the 30 gallon tank or the coral? If I decide not to keep any live rock or invertebrates, would that make this transfer quicker/easier? If you don't use copper, what do you do if a fish gets ick or something? Quarintine them?

Well, you can do that, but you do risk cycling the tank when you do that, and blue hippo tangs get sick very easily. I'd recommend taking a couple small pieces of coral out of the current tank along with some water and add it to the new tank when cycling. This will introduce copper, but if you get some activated carbon in the current, you should be able to absorb most of that. Copper is harmul/lethal to invertebrates, which is why it isn't used in reef tanks. Instead, the recommended cure if possible for ich is to use hyposalinity in a quarantine tank (reduce the salinity to 1.009 instead of the optimal range of 1.025-1.026). This should kill most ich infections without chemically burning off a fish's skin as copper treatments do. If you introduce copper to live rock or crushed coral, you can never use that live rock, crushed coral, aragonite sand, etc. again with corals, anenomes, and many motile invertebrates like worms, crabs, shrimp, and snails. Since crabs and snails are so useful for cleaning up algae, fish waste, and uneaten food, most current reef-keepers opt to never use copper in the main tank.

When you are ready to transfer fish, I'm thinking you might want to transfer half of them (the less aggressive half, so maybe the gramma, clownfish, and blue tang). Let the new tank settle for a month then add the other half and add the cannister filter (running with activated carbon to prevent you from getting a lot of copper). I'd get second opinions on that around here though, as I haven't done the sort of major population shift that you are talking about. It seems like the cannister would help with the initial shock of the adding of 3 fish, though. Do water changes frequently through this whole period if you test any ammonia or nitrite, or if the nitrate goes above 40 ppm.

I'd recommend using 80-90% playsand to get at least a 3" deep bed of sand (4" is a little better) and then pick up some uncured live rock to cycle the tank. Uncured live rock is cheaper and it has to cure no matter what you do with it, but curing it in a tank cycles that tank. If it is simpler, you can easily use the cocktail shrimp with a bit of your coral and some carbon, too. Then, when the intial cycle is completing, get more live rock and some live sand (or something like Garf Grunge, Premium Aquatics's curing tank crude, or any other good live sand activator). If the live sand sits on a shelf in a bag, it isn't very live. Real live sand come from the ocean or an established aquarium. "Base" rock is any marine aquarium suitable rock that isnt "live." If you have it in when you cycle, it will also hold bacteria when you add fish and lower the total cost of getting up to 1+ lbs per gallon of live rock as it turns into live rock.

I don't understand about the filter. Are you saying if I add all of that live rock, I don't need one??? On the same filter questions, what do you think about the wet/drys with a protein skimmer built in?

Get your total up to at least 1 lb per gallon of live rock and you have no need at all for a "filter", although a skimmer can still be very useful. (Do not invest money in a Seaclone or Prizm skimmer, though. They don't do very much for the money you pay.) A filter is actually two things: a spot for biological filtration and a circulation source. Live rock is the best spot available for biological filtration and is better than the majority of filters. However, you need the current to move polluted water over the live rock to get that effect so a filter is simply a more concentrated form of what live rock does naturally by making sure as much water as possible moves through a less efficient version of the live rock. A deep sand bed takes care of denitrification much better than a wet/dry filter and only needs to be changed every year or five, rather than more frequent cleanings and media replacements for a filter. (Since you can't have a sandbed as big as an ocean one, the toxins it pulls out of the water build up in the lower regions as months/years pass.) So the last thing a wet/dry does is circulation, and you can buy powerheads and pumps that give you more bang for your buck than a filter does. (Stay away from Rio powerheads, though.) In short, if you plan to set up a reef-type tank with live rock, there is no special reason to buy a filter for it. It's just one extra expense that could be better spent on other stuff. Plus, if you're anything like me, you may find that you spend more time watch the organisms on your live rock than the fish. A wet/dry is a very good option for a fish only aquarium, but if you are using live rock, it becomes unecessary.

I do not use a filter on my 45 gallon reef tank. I have 30 lbs of live rock, 30 lbs of a limestone-like base rock that has been colonised by various critters, and I'm slowly adding tufa rock from my LFS to increase the total area available to microfauna to colonize. (I've got maybe 70 lbs of rock and 90 lbs of sand in there total.) All I use is a CPR Bak Pak 2 skimmer (with a Maxi-jet 1200 powerhead to power it) and 2 Maxi-jet 900 powerheads. The CPR Bak Pak 2 comes with a "bio-bale" which functions as an inexpensive wet-dry filter, but I took that out, because it traps plankton that would otherwise feed my handful of corals and other filter feeders. So I guess you could say that I do use one of those combo wet/dry and skimmer packages, but I took out the wet/dry part since I don't need it.

[valval1029]

OK, this is a lot to digest but is very helpful. Maybe we can break this down into steps so I can get started soon & I would love your assistance as I go through the process. First of all I didn't purchase anything new yet. Assuming I won't use a filter for biological filtration, rather use live rock, etc..., do I still get an overflow tank? I was trying not to have things hanging out of the back of the tank, but powerheads would do that, no? I want to use a canopy that goes all the way around so I'm not sure what room they leave for things hanging over the tank edge... Maybe you are more familiar...

I want to save $, buy yet want to do this right and really wanted the AGA cherry stand and canopy. My lowest quote for 75 gal megaflow tank, stand, canopy, light and glass top is $800. :sad That's with the AGA compact flourescent light... Also, I'm thinking that 75 gallon may be too small, based on what you are saying... However, the bigger the tank, the more live rock I'll have to buy. How much is it per pound?

So, Let's finalize what I should purchase and then get onto how... I guess I will have to keep both tanks going for awhile- but we can get to that later....

One more thing, you mentioned using the fluval w/ carbon in the new tank. Will that be permanently used for circulation or removed later? It is the 303. I thought for a larger tank I would need the 404? With the fluval, I'd have to have the hoses off the back too... Thanks, V.

[OrionGirl]

Are you planning on having a sump? That's the purpose of the in tank overflows, to run everything into a sump, and then there will not be anything hanging on the back of the tank on the outside, and cords for powerheads and lights can be easily hidden. The sump is also a great place to locate the skimmer, heater, probes, etc.

For rock--you can find deals on line, but figure somewhere between $5/pound and up (this includes shipping costs into the average) and you can reduce costs by supplementing the live rock with lave rock--cheaper, and will be colonized from the live rock.

[valval1029]

Hi! I don't know anything about a sump. I was just told (not here) to get an overflow tank with wet/dry and I wouldn't have any tubing hanging out of back of tank... However, now, with the discussion of not getting a wet/dry and using live rock for filtration and powerheads for circulation--- it doesn't seem to me that a megaflow (overflow) tank and kit is necessary... What do you suggest? Also, Do you have any suggestions about how I can get fish from 30 gallon to new tank during cycling per the above discussion? Thanks so much! :)

[benjen]

OG is a much better person to talk to about sumps than me, as I don't have one, but many sump setups use a single powerful pump located in the sump to replace the idea of powerheads. They suck water from the main tank down into the sump, run it through the skimmer, etc. and then push it back into the tank at a good speed, giving you circulation. Overflows are what you use to send the water down to the sump. I know someone who only has one visible tube in his display tank and that's a pivoting return from his sump that pivots back and forth in a 90 degree angle spraying out the water from the sump. This lets him get a variable current without a lot of things visible in the tank.

You can usually get bulk discounts on live rock online. It used to be possible to get 88 lb boxes of uncured Fiji liverock for $250 plus shipping, but that's pretty much taking whatever the people in Fiji happened to put in a box. You might be very happy or not, depending on what you get. As you get more picky about the rock, the price goes up a bit. The main danger with just buying a box of rock is wondering how long it's been sitting in a warehouse drying out and waiting for a buyer. Also, you can always do part live and part base rock. My LFS sells tufa for about $1.50 a lb, and tufa becomes live rock very quickly if kept with live rock. It is a calcium carbonate rock already, so it's a perfect substitute for real live rock as long as you have enough live rock to 'seed' it. Overall, about $5 a lb on average is about right.

The fluval on the new tank would be a temporary measure for while you are letting the biological filter catch up with the waste of several extra fish. After that, I'd move it back to the 30 and use the 30 for a quarantine tank or do something special with it, personally.

There are very many ways to set up a tank. I think if you let people know your priorities, they can tailor their suggestions to fit what you really want. My focus in the first few posts was simply on the fastest way to set up a tank that is stable for your french angel and blue hippo tang. A sump is very nice for many reasons but adds several steps to the process. I meant to comment before, but I haven't researched AGA vs other tanks yet, personally as I started with an old tank and don't plan to upgrade for a year or three.

[OrionGirl]

Actually, with the overflows, the water flows into the overflow, down a tube into the sump, thena pump pushes it back up into the tank, and you can arrange the rturn flow in a variety of ways. With the 120's I have, the overflow columns are visible, along with the return heads, and that's it. You don't see anything else and the column are pretty well hidden (black columns with a black background for the tank). The benefit of a sump is based on increased water volumn, and the ability to hide equipment, in addition to being able to add topoff water to the sump, so it mixes before entering the main tank.

For moving the fish over--will this new setup being in the same spot as the existing tank, or in a different location? If it's a different location, setup the new tank, cycle it with the uncured rock, or shrimp method. Once ammonia/nitrites hit 0, do a large water change. Make sure parameters are the same, and then move everything over into the new tank. If the new tank will have to go where the current tank already is, you have 2 options. 1) setup the existing tank in a temporary location, then follow method above. 2) Buy the rock, cure it in a tub/trashcan. Once it's cured, mix up the water you'll need to completely fill the tank. Using tubs, take out all the fish and rock from the existing tank--place in a safe area, covered to prevent jumpers, and control temp. Tear down old tank. Put new tank up--put in base rock, add sand, add water, add cured live rock. Bring up to temp and allow to settle, then add all fish and rock from old tank.

Obviously, the first way to go is easiest on you and the fish. I've done it with putting everything in tubs, tearing down and putting in the new, and it is a pain--a very long day, especially if you don't have anyone to help you out. It's do-able, just a PITA. You'll want to have setup the new system to test fit and do a 'wet run' with FW before hand, to make sure you know where the plumbing goes, that you have all the bits needed, etc.

[valval1029]

OK--- I really like the overflow idea with the sump. Is the sump a filter at all or basically something below the tank filled with water??? I assume this is the same idea as using a wet/dry but it is not a filter. Does the heater go there also? How is a sump purchased? What do you recommend?

The new tank would actually go where the 30 is now... I have a free spot about 8 or 9 feet away where I'd like to try to move the 30 to temporarily until I break it down. I don't think I will have the room to keep the 30 running permanently as a quarantine tank. Maybe if I remove 1/2 of water it will be moveable and then can put the water right back in after the move?... My boyfriend can help me.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, I don't have to buy a filter.

I want to get rid of the existing copper, so instead of using my existing crushed coral I will use sand. The actual coral (brain, etc..) could be boiled to get rid of copper or no? Maybe it wouldn't even look good with the live rock... Either way, I'll have to cycle the tank- correct? In one part of your last message OG, it sounds like I can move into the new tank in one day. Could you clear that up for me? Should I use any of the old water in the new tank. Benjen said I could run the fluval with carbon temporarily to remove copper. Is there any benefit to the old water???

Do you think 75 gallons is sufficient? Now, I am tempted to go with 90 or 110. Could I use the twin tube and single tube fluorscent tubes I presently have for awhile or does the live rock need brighter? I just thought if I could stagger the $. I guess I could wait on the cherry canopy for $200. I'd like to order tank and stand in the next day or so.

[valval1029]

My overflow would have one overflow. Would I still need powerheads for more circulation? My head is spinning!!!

[benjen]

Val,
Wait at least a couple days to order your tank and stand until you have a good idea of what you're planning to do. The fish won't die because of a few days time difference. If you rush, you might find that you are not buying what you want for the final tank. Don't waste money, come up with a plan and then go with it. I've done enough of the changing my mind and costing myself more money to not want anybody else to do it.

A sump is another tank underneath the main tank. It gives you more water and a place to keep stuff you don't want looked at too much. Most people seem to buy another, smaller tank, and then modify it via acrylic baffles, but my LFS sells premade sumps.

Maybe if I remove 1/2 of water it will be moveable and then can put the water right back in after the move?... My boyfriend can help me.

I just moved a 20 g quarantine this weekend. You'll want to take out all the water you can, because the suckers are heavy. Keep the fish in buckets, etc. while you move the tank. 5 gallon buckets are about $2-4 each and you do not want to use a bucket that has been used for cleaning to hold fish water, but I suspect you knew that.

The actual coral (brain, etc..) could be boiled to get rid of copper or no?

I don't think you'll be able to get the copper out, but I might be wrong and there is a method to do so. If you can't, keep it with the rest of the stuff for the 30 so you'll have it if you need to set the 30 up for something at some point.

Could I use the twin tube and single tube fluorscent tubes I presently have for awhile or does the live rock need brighter?

You can use 'em. Just don't expect to keep any fascinating algaes or corals that might hitchhike on your rock alive. (Most die regardless of lights, but some live. I have a single button polyp and a large calurpa that just came on my live rock.) A fair bit of non-photosynthetic stuff should make it, though. Wait to buy corals, anenomes, etc. until you have upgraded lights. Just make sure you cover the top of the tank with something (even something like a length of wedding veil material for a screen) so that the gramma can't jump out.

I'd recommend doing a search on overflows and sumps. I know we have threads that detail the different types and how to set them up.

[valval1029]

Yes, I will wait a few days. I went to a LFS tonight (not my regular store) They showed me some sumps (not for sale) and said I can use VHO lights....

Anyway, after seeing the different size tanks, I think I am going to go with the 90 gallon. Would I need a glass top?

After I figure out the sump thing, I'll have to decide on lighting.

They also showed me live rock. Would I need cured or uncured- how does that work? Also they had live sand and said I can get sand (aragontie?) at Home Depot. Thanks again! :)

[benjen]

Anyway, after seeing the different size tanks, I think I am going to go with the 90 gallon. Would I need a glass top?

Depends on your light and canopy. I have one for my 45 that is turning out to be a waste, because it doesn't fit due to the protien skimmer. The glass needs about a 1 inch diameter semicircle cut out of it and I don't have the tools to do that. Eventually I may figure out a way to cut it without breaking it. If you have a full coverage canopy, you probably don't need one.

VHO lights are fine for lower light corals, but not most anenomes, IMO.

They also showed me live rock. Would I need cured or uncured- how does that work?

You use the uncured live rock to cycle your tank. (It will cycle any water it is placed in and then become cured live rock.) After your tank is cycled, you probably want to only buy cured live rock from then on, but still let it sit for a little while in a container full of saltwater so that it can do a mini-cycle. Most cured live rock isn't fully cured and can trigger a very small cycle. Otherwise, if you have a spare tank like the 30, you can always buy uncured and cure it yourself, which is usually a little cheaper. (Get all copper out of the tank, though.)

Also they had live sand and said I can get sand (aragontie?) at Home Depot.

Look for a brand called Southdown or Old Kastle for aragonite sand. It might also say carribean sand on the bag. You don't need aragonite sand, it just works a little better. I have about 55% silica sand in my tank, because aragonite sand isn't easy to find in my part of the country. Sounds like it might be a good fish store if they told you how to get sand inexpensively.

[valval1029]

Thanks so much Ben! You are a huge help.

I mentioned days ago that my nitrates are always high and you gave me some reasons why. I changed my water (20%) 2 weeks ago and again today. It is still high.

My test kit reads total nitratw level in ppm which are = to mg/L from
0 ppm to 160 ppm. Mine is at 80 ppm.... maybe a little less...

My hippo tang is fine as well as the others, except my French Angel has some white on him. (There is .15 copper in the tank presently so maybe that will help?) I have had him for 9 months. I'm hoping they hold out b/c I can't get the new tank for a couple of weeks and then it has to cycle... Will frequent water changes help?