Reef fish

[richardiv87]

As I'm sure you'll be able to tell, I'm new at this (hence the newbie forum) so I hope to not sound too rediculous.

I keep reading about the fish that are not good for reefs, however, I am also told to put live rock in the tank (havent done anything yet). Doesnt live rock become reef? Are the fish (lionfish, eel, puffer, tbd) not reef fish just because they eat everything, or does it actually harm them in some way?

Also, given that I am putting live rock into the tank, can I use regular sand (i.e. not live), and it will become live sand? Same with doing a mix with lava rock or some other - I assume it will just take longer to take hold.

Any answers will be appreciated.

[HkySk8r187]

regular sand doesn't really turn into live sand. Live sand just means it's populated with tiny living things such as eggs and invertebrates...similar to live rock. If you want to do a reef tank I would recommend putting cured live rock and live sand into your tank.

To answer your other question, live rock wont turn into a reef. Some smaller plants and invertebrates will grow onto/into the live rock without you really needing to do anything other than provide good water. If you want to have a reef you usually have to buy corals to place in your tank that will then expand, grow, and take over the tank.

As you said a lot of fish are not considered "reef safe". This is mainly because they eat it! The last thing you want to do is go out and spend money and some brand new coral and have it be eaten by your fish. Stick with reef safe fish if you plan on adding reef elements to your tank. Also make sure that you have good enough lighting to keep your reef. A regular light from an aquarium kit is usually not enough light to keep them alive.

Stick with fish that dont eat up your reef and it will be much easier on you. Some people put reef eating fish in their reef tank but for a beginner it's probably not a good idea. my $0.02

[richardiv87]

Thank you. I was trying to find out if I needed to put in live rock and/or sand if I did not want a reef. I am assuming that its better for the tank inhabitants if there is some sort of starter "things" in the lr or ls anyway just to make it more like the natural environment.

Also heard that there is some Carribean sand that you can get from Home Depot that may be just as good for starting a tank as any other sand (other than ls). Has anyone else heard the same, and what are the general thoughts on this?

Also, thinking of eventually getting some fish! :) Want a fairly agressive (i.e. live food) tank if possible. How about 1 lionfish, 1 spiny puffer, and 1 snowflake eel. Would they co-habitate well? I'm going to place them in the tank at the same time in case of territorial issues.

[OrionGirl]

Sand will become live--it's a matter of introducing the critters into 'regular' sand, but it will support the same life as what is sold with those critters already present.

Live rock and sand are beneficial for all fish--they provide natural shelter and help dilter bioogically.

For your fish--depends on the size of the tank. However--what are you thinking when you say you want to give them live food?

[TinaFishGirl]

"Also, given that I am putting live rock into the tank, can I use regular sand (i.e. not live), and it will become live sand? Same with doing a mix with lava rock or some other - I assume it will just take longer to take hold."

When I started my tank I only got three-8to10lb each, then got about 30+ pounds of lava rock and placed them in a honey comb shape _-_-_-_ live on top. For the sand I got two bags of agra-alive and two bags of play sand at home depot. In two months I saw everything was already coming alive. One year later and you couldn't tell the real live from old. Everything was covered in coraline algea, green, purple and even red. Now two years later I have spongue, plants, mushrooms and all sorts of stuff.
It's the same method they use to make alot of our LR in the LFS. They put cement blocks at the bottom of a reef, leave it for two years and harvest it to sell.


"Also, thinking of eventually getting some fish! Want a fairly agressive (i.e. live food) tank if possible. How about 1 lionfish, 1 spiny puffer, and 1 snowflake eel. Would they co-habitate well? I'm going to place them in the tank at the same time in case of territorial issues."

What size tank do you have? I would say away from live food fish. The ones you want will go to frozen if you start with a feeding prong. Live food if you don't have to isn't a good idea, because it get's your tank filthy.(more water changes) If you just want to see them eat live 'cause it's cool, give them live only once a month or so. They like the treat.

[richardiv87]

Hoping to give the live fish as a minor part of the diet (I have a freshwater tank that requires goldfish/rosy reds as feeders). I am aware that these are not good for the fish if given as a constant diet due to malnutrition etc. Tank size is small (55 Gal), but moving up when the fish get larger,and will most likely use the 55 as either quarantine or for other fish/reef. As this is my first time SW I didnt want to spend major $$$ on a 200+ Gal tank in case of failure.

Like the sound of the live rock taking over the lava quickly. Saves on some of the spending and saves the reefs also.

Thanks for all of your help.

[OrionGirl]

Actually, there are not really any FW fish that are acceptable as a food source--even treats, IMO--for most SW critters. Rosies are moderately better than goldies, but neither is good for the fish, even as a frequent treat. The metabolism is just too different--barring octopus. Lions and eels can be killed by feeders (nutritional issues, fatty buildups), and puffers really must have crunchy foods make up most of their diet to avoid beak overgrowth. Some SW feeders are available, but sporadically and regionally. If you're getting a lion to watch it eat live fish--I wouldn't. I've seen too many lions killed by overfeeding and poor food sources. No accusations, just a simple comment.

[richardiv87]

Was actually getting the puffer to see it eat live food! :) I didnt know that FW feeders were actually bad for them though. What live food would you feed any of the species mentioned, if any? Can I go to the local fishmongers and get fresh fish, or at least parts of fresh fish and feed them? I think I heard squid is a bit of a treat...

What 'crunchy' food is best? Feeder crabs? Ghost shrimp (or are they FW)? Other?

[OrionGirl]

Ghost shrimp work--as will shrimp, mussels, crabs, cockles, snails--anything with a hard shell. Puffers will often take fish flesh, but they won't go after a live fish, really. Not part of their diet naturally. They go after crustaceans, mollusks and corals primarily. Some eels go after fish, but many eat similar foods to the puffers, and lions are primarily piscivores--but a diet of FW fish are very bad for them. For my burrfish--similar to the puffer--I feed shell on raw shrimp and mussels, plus ghost shrimp now and then. He and the trigger fight over them. The lion got strips of fish--we'd pick up whatever was on sale from the grocery store. He also happily took the frozen prepared foods and earthworms (low fats, high protien--a good treat, but not a regular part of the diet).

[Gealcath]

FW fish most often cause liver failure in SW fish due to buildup of fats and whatnot which are not present in what a SW fish would normall eat.

[richardiv87]

ok, I've been reading, and reading, and well, reading, and am still a little confused, so here's what I've done so far for cycling the tank - please let me know if I completely screwed it up! :)

1. Added water (and salt)
2. Added the sand - play sand, not the good stuff - couldnt afford it and I have a new appreciation for Home Depot! I know that was probably the wrong way around, but still. Water is still a little murky, but should be good soon.
3. Added about 20 lbs live rock (after about 4 days of the tank being up and running). Understand that this may be a little early, but the rock is un-cured and the lfs said it should be ok. Will add more when my wallet allows.

Now here's the questions...seen a lot about adding the shrimp - do I do that now, or now I have the live rock do I not need it? Do I run a filter? If so, do I run it with carbon? - thinking no, but just in case I'll ask anyway. Do I do all of this AND add the cheap fish? Should I get the stuff from wherever to get the sand up and running also? Or do I just sit back and watch for a month? I think I need help - FW was sooo much easier than this! :)

[OrionGirl]

Adding shrimp now will increase the size of the ammonia spike, which in turns determines the size of the bacterial colonies. Without testing the water now, no way to know if you're getting a huge spike, or just a little one. Test, get back with that, and we'll go from there.

May not need a filter--the rock and sand will be biological filtration. Mechanical filtration may be needed, especially if you can't have the critters (ie, snails, crabs, shrimp--things that will be eaten in by puffers, lions, and eels). You do need some water movement, either from powerheads or a power filter sans media.

No, adding fish is needless. The important thing is an ammonia source, and rotting fish or rot from the uncured rock work well without killing damsels needlessly.

The live sand isn't a requirement--most of the critters will move over from the rock, and you can get activator kits that will introduce most of them.

Test kits and monitoring salinity to determine what topoff of freshwater are your most important 'jobs' for now. Watching the cool critters that come out of the rock is secondary. ;)

[richardiv87]

Salinity is 1.022 right now...will get back with the other stuff soon.

[richardiv87]

Salinity 1.022
Temp 74 (trying to get it to 77/78)
pH 8.0
Ammonia 0.5 ppm
Nitrite 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 10 ppm

As I said, only just set up the tank, and the live rock went in today.

Do I have to feed the live rock/tank? If so, how much, and what is the stuff I should use?

Will turn on the filter sans media and get a power head at some point soon.

What activator kits? Where from - I asked the lfs and they dont have any.

Oh, I currently have Figi rock also. What is the best stuff (I assume the most expensive)? Does it depend on the expected fish?

[richardiv87]

ok, changed the way in which Im doing things (just one day in, so no biggie). Now added live rock - figured going the natural way is better. Letting the tank cycle with just that. Lots of 'shrooms, shrimp, and mini-stars to get the thing going. Sit back and relax for 3-8 weeks (apart from the constant monitoring and nail biting about everything being killed off!)