Problems w/ fishless cycling - or where oh where did my little bacteria go

[superstein61]

Well, I have been trying to fishless cycle my 72 gallon for what seems like forever - and still no Nitrites.

Now, I hit upon a couple areas which I believe caused some problems - which I will post for others edification. but beyond that, I am stumped.

my PH, kh, etc are all in the normal range. I seeded my tank (actually the sump) with some gravel and foam filter sponge from an existing 29 gallon tanks with a light bio load - as well as some plants - and even some Stress Zyme (I know the bacteria in a bottle products are questionable - but I figured it can't hurt).

I started the fishless cycle on 12/20 - adding Ammonia to 5ppm. I added a bit more ammonia on subsequent days for about a week to get to what I thought was back to 5ppm. then I stopped adding from around 12/27 thru 1/4. No nitrites at all.

My initial problems I discovered (or at least I surmise) were:

1. I ran my UV sterilizer for the first week. I think this nuked any good stuff floating around

2. I overdosed the Ammonia - I thought my test kit was reading 5ppm - but the color at the high end looks a lot alike - and I ultimately decided after the first day, with all the additions, I probably got up to 8 or 9ppm. This probably also inhibited the nitrites.

So on 1/4, I did a 50% water change and my Ammonia reading was a between 4ppm and 5ppm. I left it at that, added a few more plants, put in some "new" seeded gravel and filter foam from the 29 gallon, and added some more plants and Stress Zyme.

I have checked the Ammonia almost daily and I am still around the 4 to 5 ppm - so I have not added more.

But now 1/15 - after 11 days, STILL no traces of Nitrite.

The first 2 weeks, I think I can explain what the problem was. these last 2 - I am mystified. Can anyone offer any suggestions?

Thanks

[OrionGirl]

If you have plants, they are soaking up ammonia without producing nitrites. It happens, especially with established plants or quick growing ones.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by superstein61
I … added a few more plants, put in some "new" seeded gravel and filter foam from the 29 gallon, and added some more plants and Stress Zyme.


Fishless isn't a good combination with planted. The light levels needed by the plants will produce algal blooms with the very high ammonia levels. Planted tanks cycle differently, as the plants compete with the bacteria for ammonia. Here is a good article (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm) on cycling planted. Its a not as dangerous version of the fishy.

The StressZyme is a dechlorinater, no? How much/regularly have you been adding it? See if it says anything about detoxifying ammonia -- it may be screwing up your Ammonia test. I use Amquel for a dechlorinater, and I know it will screw up the test kits. (Not exactly sure how it screws them up, false positives or what not).

The plants may have blown through the ammonia you gave them and the StressZyme is still giving you false readings. No ammonia for the bacteria = no nitrItes?

Just a guess, but those are the two things I'd look into.

HTH

[JSchmidt]

I suspect that your innoculation didn't add much in the way of bacteria. The StressZyme is worthless... It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to be cycling a clean tank from scratch and to have zero nitrites after two weeks.

What I would do:

1) Throw away the StressZyme.
2) Only check ammonia every 2nd or 3rd day.
3) Open a bottle of good chardonnay.
4) Relax, sip wine and anticipate the cool fish I'll buy.
5) Forget my initial errors and promise to never add anything to my tank without knowing exactly what's in it.
6) Come to all the great fish boards and vicarously enjoy others' fishes.

Your tank will cycle. As soon as you see any drop in ammonia, add enough to take the tank back up to 5 ppm. Then just wait...

HTH,
Jim

[Tyler718]

I started my fishless cycle the same day you did. (This is my third time). I'm having the same problem except I don't have live plants, I used Stress COAT, & my nitrItes Did spike. My ammonia started to decline, but is now back up and just ain't going back down at all & nitrItes are at 0. By the way my nitrAtes are at 10 ppm. I'm at a lost right now. I was going to post about this tonight.

[superstein61]

Thanks for the input


Originally posted by OrionGirl
If you have plants, they are soaking up ammonia without producing nitrites.

But if that were true, wouldn't my ammonia test readings be dropping? My ammonia level is holding steady. I guess I should say I don't have a ton of plants - so if they are soaking up some ammonia, it seems to be miniscule

[superstein61]

Thanks for the input


Originally posted by carpguy


Fishless isn't a good combination with planted. The light levels needed by the plants will produce algal blooms with the very high ammonia levels. Planted tanks cycle differently, as the plants compete with the bacteria for ammonia. Here is a good article (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm) on cycling planted. Its a not as dangerous version of the fishy.



Thanks - good article there. But I guess I should have added this is not a heavily planted tank - with low light and no CO2 injection. It has a few low light plants (4 Java Ferns and 1 bolbitis to start on 12/20 - then added 10 small water sprites on 1/10). The lighting right now is a measly 40W (til my upgrade kit arrives). I have added a few doses of liquid fertilizer - but thats it.

Would it be better to remove all the plants (I guess I can temporarily throw them in my 29gallon). I thought I read a couple articles though that suggested planting before cycling - and that plants from an established tank are a source of good bacteria.


Originally posted by carpguy


The StressZyme is a dechlorinater, no? How much/regularly have you been adding it? See if it says anything about detoxifying ammonia -- it may be screwing up your Ammonia test. I use Amquel for a dechlorinater, and I know it will screw up the test kits. (Not exactly sure how it screws them up, false positives or what not).

The plants may have blown through the ammonia you gave them and the StressZyme is still giving you false readings. No ammonia for the bacteria = no nitrItes?

Just a guess, but those are the two things I'd look into.

HTH

Stress Zyme is one of the bacteria in a bottle magic elixirs - LOL. It probably doesn't do anything except separate you from your money and make you feel like you are doing something :D It definitely doesn't detoxify ammonia.

I did check my dechlorinator that I used. Neither of them (I finished up an existing bottle of Kordon's NovAqua on about half the water - and used Genesis on the remainder) speak to detoxifying Ammonia. In fact, NovAqua specifically says it doesn't (they want you to also buy Amquel). Plus NovAqua "says" it doesn't effect water quality tests. I have used NovAqua for a couple of years - in my other tank and never had any false test results so I believe that.

As far as Genesis - this is my first time using it - but is only addresses Chlorine and Chloramine. I wonder if anyone else here uses Genesis as a decholrinator - and successfully fishless cycled a tank.

[pinballqueen]

Originally posted by Tyler718
I started my fishless cycle the same day you did. (This is my third time). I'm having the same problem except I don't have live plants, I used Stress COAT, & my nitrItes Did spike. My ammonia started to decline, but is now back up and just ain't going back down at all & nitrItes are at 0. By the way my nitrAtes are at 10 ppm. I'm at a lost right now. I was going to post about this tonight.

If you have nitrAtes, you have the bacterial colony that produces them, and your tank has cycled (or is almost so). Do a good sized water change to dilute the ammonia and nitrates back out a little, and let it keep working. When you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrIte, and detect nitrAtes, your tank is ready to add fish to. Give it a few more days, and it should be good to go.

[superstein61]

Thanks Jim


Originally posted by JSchmidt
I suspect that your innoculation didn't add much in the way of bacteria. The StressZyme is worthless... It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to be cycling a clean tank from scratch and to have zero nitrites after two weeks.



I agree but I figured seeding the tank with some gravel and filter sponge from my 29 gallon (with an albeit light bioload) would add some bacteria. I have tossed the StressZyme (its all finished - LOL)


QUOTE]Originally posted by JSchmidt


What I would do:

1) Throw away the StressZyme.
2) Only check ammonia every 2nd or 3rd day.
3) Open a bottle of good chardonnay.
4) Relax, sip wine and anticipate the cool fish I'll buy.
5) Forget my initial errors and promise to never add anything to my tank without knowing exactly what's in it.
6) Come to all the great fish boards and vicarously enjoy others' fishes.


HTH,
Jim [/QUOTE]

1. Done
2. Yea, I have become frustrated so I am only checking every other day now - LOL
3. What about some Zinfandel instead :)
4. My problem is I have been anticipating those cool fish - I know which ones are in at my various LFS - but it pains me having to wait even longer to get them all - LOL
5. Ahhh - I knew the deal with the StressZyme - That was not a biggie
6. Yea - but it just ain't the same as enjoying your own ;)

My main concern is if anything I have done (put a few plants in, added dechlorinator, Stress Zyme, etc) would inhibit the growth of the bacteria. From a few of the posts above, I see the plants could be competing for the Ammonia - but since the Ammonia test reading isn't really falling, not sure I have enough plants right now to really negatively affect my fishless cycling.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Tyler718
My ammonia started to decline, but is now back up and just ain't going back down at all & nitrItes are at 0. By the way my nitrAtes are at 10 ppm. I'm at a lost right now.

tyler, if you figure out why your Ammonia is staying up, please let me know. Your case does seem odd - since if you have the Nitrates after a Nitrite spike, I would have assumed you are close to being fully cycled. but for ammonia to stay up is mystifying

[pinballqueen]

If your water company uses chloramines, using a dechlorinator to break up the chlorine/ammonia bond may be causing you some false ammonia readings (since the ammonia compound in chloramine, while still toxic to your fish, is not converted as easily by bacteria or plants.) Just a thought....

Maybe you should switch dechlor methods if you have chloramines. Also, maybe taking the plants out is not such a bad idea. Many commercial farms use the method of spraying ammonia-water on their plants as fertilizer (much more efficient than many other fertilizers that have to break down to be used by the plant.). Plants really love ammonia, and might be using all of the "bacteria-friendly" ammonia present in the tank.

Once again, this is all under the assumption that you might have a more stubborn ammonia compound giving you your high ammonia readings... If you've got plain-old ammonia and nothing else, I don't know what to tell you other than sit back, grab a book, and let nature take its course....

[Tyler718]

superstein61,
I'm not sure what is going on. I followed what PBQ suggested last night. I changed 40% of the water and added more ammonia back to 5 ppm. I tested again tonight. It's went from 5 ppm to .50 ppm and 0 for nitrItes 10 ppm for nitrAtes.

So I think I have no clue to help you one or me one bit. I bought a new test kit right after this first started happening. It reads the
same as the old. So I ruled out the test kit. I just wish I knew what was going on. I think it is a good learning experience.

Let us know when figure it out on your end. I'm really curious.

[famman]

I have 3 cents worth to offer today!

You really need to pull the plants out of there and put them somewhere else until your tank has cycled.
When fishless cycling, using a product to detoxify the ammonia left over from the chloramine breakdown is counter productive. An example of this is AquaSafe with sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate. This is as opposed to Amquel wich uses sodium thiosulfate and does not detoxify the ammonia.
Seldom mentioned is the idea of challenging the bacteria to build a strong culture of the correct bacteria. They have to eat it all when it's there and not die when there's no food for the rest of the day.

good luck
:)

[superstein61]

Pinballqueen and Famman - ok, thanks for the ideas. the plants are coming out tomorrow - I will just temporarily put them in my 29 gallon.

If nothing else happens in a few days, I will do another partial water change and use a different dechlorinization method. Thanks


Tyler - thanks - I will post if I figure out anything else that provides me success - good luck

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by famman
I have 3 cents worth to offer today!

When fishless cycling, using a product to detoxify the ammonia left over from the chloramine breakdown is counter productive. An example of this is AquaSafe with sodium hydroxymethane sulfinate. This is as opposed to Amquel wich uses sodium thiosulfate and does not detoxify the ammonia.
Seldom mentioned is the idea of challenging the bacteria to build a strong culture of the correct bacteria. They have to eat it all when it's there and not die when there's no food for the rest of the day.

good luck
:)

famman, just a clarification: It sounds like you're saying that Amquel is primarily sodium thiosulfate and that Amquel won't detoxify ammonia. Both statements are incorrect: Amquel is not simply sodium thiosulfate and it does detoxify ammonia. That's what it's for! Kordon, maker of Amquel, maintains that the detoxified ammonia continues to be available for the bacterial colony, and my experience is consistent with that claim.

The ammonia-oxidizing bacteria will die if only fed once a day; the can live many days without food. We feed them regularly when fishless cycling because we are trying to increase the population and that only happens when there is an excess of food.

The main gyst of your post, though, that we don't want to remove is ammonia when fishless cycling is right on, though.


Jim

[JSchmidt]

Superstein, one other thing to keep in mind as you're sipping you Zinfandel: since you've added Stresszyme (at some point) you can not count on the presence of nitrates to mean anything about your cycle. Stresszyme contains nitrates and unless you do a 100% water change, you'll won't be able to tell whether nitrates that show up are from the Stresszyme or are from the biofilter. Once you start seeing a consistent increase in nitrates you can be more sure the biofilter is developing.

HTH,
Jim

[famman]

JSchmidt,
thanks for the clarification, I meant to say the main ingredient does what I said, but I did forget about additional ingredients.
thanks
:)

[superstein61]

Ok Houston, we have blast off. Nitrites reproducing like crazy now.

Not sure what did it, sipping the Zinfandel, just the passage of time, one other magic elixir my wife bought to throw in the tank, or just the good karma from posting here about it. But those little bugs are multiplying rapidly now.

I had planned to take the plants out yesterday AM as per above - but I figured, what the heck - lets do one more test first. So lo and behold, checked my Ammonia and it did seem down a bit . So did a nititrite / Nitrate test and Nitrites were 1ppm. Checked last night, Ammonia dropped more and Nitrites reading 1.5ppm. So I added some more Ammonia and this AM, Nitrites are up to 3ppm and they consumed all the ammonia I added last evening. So I am feeding them some more !!!

Again, I don't know what did the trick, could have just been the time passage (but for me seeding the tank with filter foam, gravel, etc from another of my tanks, I still don't know why it took so long) or ???. BTW - I mentioned the one other magic elixir my wife bought. (She has been more anxious to get this set up so I can take down a smaller old one in the same room and move it)She bought this (its called biozyme - a dry powder - well here rather than me explaining it:

http://www.aq-products.com/Catalog/Water%20Treatments/Biozyme.htm

Anyway - she bought this the day before I posted. I explained to her that these products basically didn't work - but she said its only $3 - try it. So to keep her happy, some went in the tank (mainly in my filter foam and sump) on the evening of the 14th - and again on the 15th and we have Nitrites on the 16th. Now I don't believe this stuff did anything - but she says, "see I told you so" - LOL. Guess I will just nod and agree to keep her happy (you married guys know the drill ;)

Anyway, thanks folks for the help

[Serj]

Awesome, glad to see it finally go through. I've been working on a fishless cycle for a stubborn 55g, and the nitrites just started spiking this morning :D Would've been a lot faster, but it started out slow due to my ignorance. By the way, I used the Wal-Mart brand "Clear Ammonia" which contained some 'chelating' agents. I believe someone on this board mentioned that -should- probably just lower the hardness of the water. So far, I haven't seen any side-effects other than the hardness, but only time can really tell...

[JSchmidt]

I put my money on the Zinfandel.

Glad things are cooking...

Jim

[Tyler718]

superstein61,
My cycle finally finished 2 days ago. Thank God!! I don't know why I was having a problem with ammonia at the end. I spiked ammonia at the end and it was gone in 12 hours with ammonia and nitrItes read zero. I finally got to start stocking today.:)

[superstein61]

Tyler - thats great news. Hopefully mine will finish soon as well (and in the meantime, I hopefully will get my algae outbreak under control).