One fish, 24 gal., one week -- no ammonia

[cawaltons]

After reading several fish books and on the suggestions of LFS, we started cycling our new 24 gal. tank on Jan. 2 with one male betta. As instructed by LFS, we used Prime to remove chlorine and added Cycle. We have been eagerly testing the water about every other day and still have no measurable ammonia. We have done two water changes (about 2 gallons each time), mostly because the water looks like tea from our driftwood.

We would like to see some rise in ammonia so that we know that our tank has cycled so we can add other fish. Do you think the low readings are normal? Is it from the Prime or Cycle? Could it be that one fish in that much water won't cause a normal cycle?

Thanks!

[Seaman]

maybe your test strips are bad?

[cawaltons]

maybe your test strips are bad?

We're using the type where you get the test tubes and add drops. I'm sure we're using the correctly. The directions are very clear. Do people have trouble with the drop tests?

[Swimfins]

I think your lone betta is not enough to give a noticeable rise in ammonia,
You might want to add 5 or 6 ghost shrimp and feed some flakes to create amonia. They say 'cycle' is useless in tank cycling. I found it worked best when my tank was showing high nitrItes. This should occur after you've been registering amonia for awhile.

Your drop test is likely just fine. One itty bitty betta in 20g, is not much of a load. I'd add the ghost shrimp. Feeding the flakes is what will cause the amonia, but the shrimp will clean it up just fine.

[cawaltons]

Interesting, thanks! Yes, someone else mentioned the Cycle was not a great idea.I'd add the ghost shrimp. Feeding the flakes is what will cause the amonia, but the shrimp will clean it up just fine.See, I feel funny about adding the shrimp because I don't know if I can make a long term commitment to them. (I was hoping to eventually add: 8 Neon Tetra, 2 Honey gourami, and 3 Kuhli Loach, although I am not sure about that since I read the sticky debunking the 1" rule.)

What if I added some plants? That was the original plan, but then the LFS said that I should either cycle with plants or fish, but not both.

Also, we learned that our neighbor has a freshwater tank. Maybe we could beg some gravel from them? Would that be helpful?

[platesnc]

Plants will do fine with fish IMO, no harm for sure.

Yes you should get some gravel or filter material from them to speed up the cycling process. But do check that his fish are healthy and find out more about his water change habits, etc.

[carpguy]

Plants are good for a fishy cycle. They'll bring good bacteria with them and will eat ammonia themselves.

Bright plant lighting with high ammonia levels can sometimes lead to algae, the usual recommendation for fishless is to wait.

Here's a good link on "silent"planted cycling (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm)

I think the one betta may not be giving you enough ammonia. You could always try using a little too much food to simulate bioload. He may also have trouble with the gouramis down the road. They're kind of closely related.

[JSchmidt]

If you are using Prime, most ammonia tests will give you false results. The only one I know of that works when using Prime is the Ammonia Shield, which is a little card you put in your tank. I shows how much ammonia is present.

The other common tests -- the Nessler tests with one reagent and the salicylate tests with two reagents -- won't give you accurate results when used with Prime.

HTH,
Jim

P.S. This is not an indictment of Prime; it's a good treatment for chlorinated/chloriminated water. It just messes up ammonia tests.

[Swimfins]

I woudn't worry about a long term commitment to the shrimp. You can leave them there as fish food eventually. In my experience they don't last long (a few weeks or months) and they are fun to watch while you have them.
When they were in their molting period, my gourami treated themselves to lunch. :rolleyes:

[cawaltons]

Thanks, all!

Argh! The Prime may be cloaking my ammonia? I was afraid of that. So, I can just buy any other dechlorinator?

Now, if I get the filter material from my neighbor (and I'm not sure about his tank habits -- he's a newbie whose 10 gal. tank has cycled but seems overloaded to me), what do I do with it? Put it in a nylon in the tank?

Thanks for the link on the planted cycle. He refers to adding CO2. Should I do this with my betta in the tank? Is this something I can buy at the pet store?

And yes, I am wondering about the betta with the gouramis. I am hoping that they'll get along, especially in a planted tank. It's interesting to read the conflicting info out there. One book we have has a picture of a male betta in a community tank on the cover. Another recommonded the gourami as being compatible with bettas. After reading the betta thread, it sounds like it would have been best to add the betta last. As it is, we may have to use a betta condo in the tank. OTOH, he may get along just fine -- he never flairs at his reflection in the glass (though he did once only for a mirror).

Thanks very much for all the advice!

[cawaltons]

I woudn't worry about a long term commitment to the shrimp. You can leave them there as fish food eventually. In my experience they don't last long (a few weeks or months) and they are fun to watch while you have them.
When they were in their molting period, my gourami treated themselves to lunch. :rolleyes:

Hee! Somehow, I feel better about them as fish food than just flushing them. I might do that (will check with hubby first). I think I saw those at one of our local fish stores. I need to make a shopping list -- new test strips, new dechlorinator, new plants?, new ghost shrimp?...

BTW, I enjoyed the photos of your tank in your link. I was orignally planning to get a pair of pearl gouramis but after reading about them, it sounds like they are more shy than the honey gouramis. How are yours in your community tank? I see you have a betta in a seperate bowl. It looks planted? How's that set up?

Thanks!

[Swimfins]

Gourami and bettas are fish with alot of personality. You never know.
My betta was fine with my pearl gourami, but he savaged a guppy tail.
Some others are fine with guppy.....I dunno.
You can just get a cupful of your friends substrate and sprinkle it over yours,
which I did for my big tank and it worked well. Or you can get some of his filter material and stick it in yours (probably better because this is where the good bacteria lives). A nylon bag or stocking will do fine.

Also, I have no experience with prime. I use aqua-plus (available at walmart)
If you have zeolite (white stone chips) in your filter medium, this might also be why your not showing any amonia. Some new filters come with zeolite in them, I've noticed. (As did my eheim 2215 canister filter.) You might want to remove it fi you have it and place some of your friends filter material in there. As well, if you can't get any filter material, you can just squeeze some juice out of his, (yuk!) and add the juice to your own filter medium.

At this point, I wouldn't mess with co2 and plants. Just get your tank cycled.
Co2 needs to be measured, ph and kh and gh.......Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!! You can learn about all this later. I think you've got enough to think about right now lol......

Also, I wouldn't worry about his 'fishkeeping', except to be certain he has no disease in his tank. Overstocking wil just mean more bacteria in his filter. You don't want to introduce any disease into your own tank, beware, otherwise go for it.

[Harlock]

Your loach would love ghost shrimp. Not a waste at all, now is it?

[anonapersona]

If you have one small fish in a 20 gallon tank, you are doing small and regular water changes, 10% every 4 to 5 days, I suspect the fish is fine, the tank is fine. After 2 weeks, unless you see ammonia or nitrite building up, then I'd add more fish. If you begin to see ammonia, then increase the water changes to 5 gallons, even 10 gallon, as needed to keep ammonia below 1ppm. If you can import some bacteria from an active, healthy tank, you will get through this start up time much faster. I'm not

You don't need new test strips, they are much less dependable than the drops you say you have now. You don't need new dechlorinator, Prime is the best there is IMO. If you feel the need to get something, get a Seachem ammonia alert, it will detect ammonia when Prime is used. Plants are OK if your lighting is sufficient. If not, that will just decay in the tank.

As for a newbie for getting bacteria from -- I wouldn't. Too likely to have overstocked and stressed fish, ich and other parasites in wait.

This hobby WILL teach you patience!

[Swimfins]

My betta resides in a bowl near the computer (his choice) He didn't take much liking to the 25g tank. I guess he prefers confined space. He's in a bowl with a silk flower. It means more water changes, but you do what you have to do to keep 'em happy lol :)

[cawaltons]

Well, thanks everyone for your advice. I went to the store today and got a Seachem ammonia alert, which says the ammonia is fine (they didn't have the Ammonia Shield). I also bought a few plants, which came from a planted tank with a few fish in it. We planted these and added some of the water they were packed in. (We have an 18 inch, 15 watt Mutri Grow Freshwater Aquarium Plant Lamp by Coralife, BTW.)

Turns out our neighbor just changed his filter. Decided not to borrow his slime.

Maybe I'll get a some ghost shrimp, too. I think I might need them for some algae that seems to be growing on our driftwood (white hairs?).

So, how long should I wait before I add more fish? I was thinking I'd wait a week and see how things are going.

And what should I add next? Eventually, I was hoping to have 8 Neon Tetras, 2 Honey gouramis, and 3 Kuhli Loaches.

Thanks!

[TKOS]

The gouramis and the betta just won't work toegther. In fact I would be surprised if the 2 honey gouramis worked together. They are all from the same family of fish and are very aggressive to each other. I woudl think about at least moving the betta to his own 5 gallon tank.

[cawaltons]

The gouramis and the betta just won't work toegther. In fact I would be surprised if the 2 honey gouramis worked together. They are all from the same family of fish and are very aggressive to each other. I woudl think about at least moving the betta to his own 5 gallon tank.
We were thinking about a betta condo in the big tank, but maybe an additional tank would be better.

It's interesting how much conflicting information there is on betta-gourami compatability. It must work sometimes because several books and websites have recommended it. We were thinking honey gouramis would be worth a try because of their reputation as exceptionally friendly gouramis. I'd be interested to hear about your experience. What type of gouramis? Pearl? Honey?

But this is the first I've heard of the gouramis bickering. Wouldn't a male and female pair be OK?

Thanks for the input!

[carpguy]

I'm not sure where your information is coming from so its hard to comment on this or that. But…

Gouramis and Bettas are both Labyrinth fish. As a group they're known to be territorially aggressize towards conspecifics. The degree to which they're aggressive varies from species to species and from individual to individual. Its also influenced by the particulars of their enviroment. The violence is typically male against male, although females can also be aggressive and the males will sometimes attack the females, especially during spawning.

I have a pair of Pearls that for the most part ignore the rest of the fish and swim placidly around the tank, sometimes together and sometimes not. Very beautiful fish. They don't go into spawning mode very often, but when they have it gets pretty wild. I don't think the female would survive it in a smaller tank.

You'll find folks who have kept this or that fish together and there wasn't a problem. Or there was. There is a strong potential for a problem.

Most Honey's are actually Dwarf Gouramis and most of those are males.

[cawaltons]

Yes, I'm pretty sure we'll have to remove the betta. Or, maybe we won't get the gouramis. (BTW - I think the suggestion of bettas with gouramis came from Setting Up a Freshwater Aquarium by Gregory Skomal and timstropicals.com.)

I have a pair of Pearls that for the most part ignore the rest of the fish and swim placidly around the tank, sometimes together and sometimes not. Very beautiful fish.
I noticed in your tank specs that your loaches were hassling your gouramis. I wonder if I'd have problems with Kuhli Loaches and gouramis?

Most Honey's are actually Dwarf Gouramis and most of those are males.
Really? So a pair is unlikely? Expensive? Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

[anonapersona]

Kuhlie loaches are cool. I have 5, they live under the driftwood in a deep bed of soft sand I put there for them. They don't bother anyone, and they don't take anything off the meanies in the tank -- the serpae tetras were rather bullies and tried to "stare down" everyone, the kuhlies didn't give them the time of day.

[carpguy]

I noticed in your tank specs that your loaches were hassling your gouramis. I wonder if I'd have problems with Kuhli Loaches and gouramis?

Hmmm. I haven't updated that in a really long time.

There never turned out to be any trouble betweeen them. The nutshell is that the zebra loaches are really curious fish and they don't always stay on the bottom. They'd wander up to see what was going on. And a male gourami with a bubble nest is a lot like a dog with a bone. The loaches wandered away.

The trouble with the spawning pair is that as soon as the egg-squeezing dance is over the female is seen as a threat to the nest in a way that the loaches never were. They've only spawned twice since then (three times in two years).

I don't have any experience with Kuhlis but believe that they're shyer and more prone to stay down near the bottom. Highly recommend zebras in particular and small loaches in general, great fish.


Really? So a pair is unlikely? Expensive? Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

You should check out this page on Labyrinth Fish (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/fishes/labyrinth.shtml), especially for the bits on true Honeys (T. chuna) and Dwarfs (C. lalia). Check out the whole website, its a great resource.

But the nutshell is that the male labyrinths tend to be more colorful than the females and are therefore more in demand. As far as the dwarfs go, stores tend to stock males, just like with bettas. Breeders in Asia also hop the fry up on hormones to boost color and increase male traits. If you can find a good LFS or somewhere online you may be able to find them. Just not what is typically stocked.

Have you thought of getting a female betta or two and just keeping them as your resident labyrinths?

[cawaltons]

Thanks for the link! Interesting to read about the aggressiveness of male gouramis! I wonder about pearl gouramis. If I end up isolating the betta (which I now will read as "bet-ah" and not "bay-ta"), could I just get one pearl gourami, or should I get two?

OTOH, maybe we will get two female bettas. Might be best to forget about gouramis.

As for the loaches, my son is particularly interested in the eel/snake shape of the Kuhli. However, we have small rock substrate, not sand. Maybe I should add sand? Or, maybe there's a better (less shy) choice? We have a 24 gallon tank, so we're somewhat limited.

Or, we could forget about eel-shaped fish and get glass catfish! Hmm.

Thanks for the input!

[waterdawg]

I started my 29 gal with 8 tetras (1"). I seeded the new tank with about 1 cup of gravel and the used filter cartridge from from my established 20 gal tank. I also used some stresszyme. I noticed no ammonia spike whatsoever. The tank is cycled now and I'm slowly adding the new fish (avoiding any major changes in the bio-load). I'm now starting a new 20 gal and I'm using the exact same method. :dance

[Swimfins]

don't mix a male betta with female betta unless its for a short time to breed.
The male will kill the female.
My pearl gourami worked well with my betta. My betta hated my male guppy, however.
Pearl gourami are the most peaceful of the bunch. My two are like an old couple. They squabble once in awhile. Then cruise around together like nothing happened. I find them kind and peaceful. I've read other stories on here that usually involve the other types of Gourami. I saw a snakeskin gourami at my LFS that was just a big pain in the butt. Even flaring at the others from behind the glass of another tank. Dwarf neons can be little ***** too.