Help! Blue Ram trouble

[kylemc]

Hello everyone
I'm new to this site and just joined up. Heres a little about myself. Got my first fish when i was 16 and now 8 years later I'm still learning. I started with freshwater community fish and decided to go cichlids after that. I've raised and bred, jack dempsey, texas cichlid, oscars. And i have raised clown knives, electric blue cichlids and other random african cichlids.


The Problem

I purchased 10 german blue rams from the local fish store, and put them in a 72 gal tank, alone. When introduced to the water they drop straight to the bottom and stay there for a while, they then seem to be quite happy. Shortly after though, i'd say about 3 hours, i see one acting "drunk" trying to swim, swaying, not swimming straight, and breathing real hard. 30-60 min later he goes belly up. I had figured i had gotten a sick fish, then over the night i lost another and before i went to work i observed another fish acting "drunk" and dieing shortly after. Its been about 1 day now i see another fish acting like its about to start the process they seem to all go through.

Tank Stats

7 blue rams
72 gal tank
hard water
whisper 60 w/carbon and sponge
whisper 60 w/peat pellets (fluval)
300 watt heater
Temp 82 degree F

PH problem

The fish stores in my city say that it is impossible to test alaskan water with anything but an electronic ph tester. Being that i've usually raised hardy cichlid i havn't had too much problems with water quality. They tell me alaska water has a PH of 7.5 and is hard water. my test strips read 8.5 and the liquid test tells me 8.0. Is this true about alaskan water, am i being had? How do i lower ph? will the peat work?

I know blue rams are a difficult fish to raise, i had hoped that i was ready.
Any help or information is greatly appreciated. thanks everyone


kyle

[justinb013]

I would assume since you didn't mention it that this tank has been cycled and your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings are OK. If not, or you don't know, I'd test for those 3 first.

Typically rams don't do so well in very hard water, and it sounds like yours if quite hard. They prefer soft water with pH under 7. Peat should help lower pH, but you may want to add some under your gravel in addition to what you have in the filter. It may be benificial (though very expensive, esp. for 72g) to invest in an RO unit.

Some of your rams may adjust to the hard water and high pH, but that would suprise me. If I were you, I would stick to african rift lake cichlids and other hard water lovers.

[kylemc]

I've tried adding more peat and when i checked them this morning they all seems alot more spunky, their actually moving around now.
I tested my nitrite ammonia and nitrate and they all are fine.

thanks for the help

i'll keep posting if i have anymore problems.

[justinb013]

Good to hear. Hopefully they will adjust and be just fine.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Justin

[Karnaaj]

Hey Kyle, are there any other fish in the tank with them? How are they doing? You didn't mention whether the tank has been cycled or not, if not that is probably your problem. I have had success keeping and even breeding Rams in water with a ph of 7.6 or so and a high degree of hardness. The downside is that the eggs will almost never hatch in those conditions.

It is much easier for somebody with a low ph and low hardness to raise these values than it is for somebody with a high ph and a high level of hardness to lower them. It is going to take a lot longer than overnight for an additon of peat to change the water much.

[justinb013]

let's get nasty!

c'mon guys.

[kylemc]

I cycled the tank for 3 days before adding any fish (fish store said that was plenty of time to wait). the fish i have in the tank now are.... blue rams x8, sailfin mollys x6, white clouds x10, and a couple clown loach's.

Yesterday i did a 90% water change, i changed over from tap water to RO water, my ph is now 6.5 and soft. Nitrite ammonia nitrate all still fine. Rams seeming to do alot better, lost one this morning but it had being acting funny the night before.

any suggestions would be welcome, i'm worried that i might have messed up doing such a massive water change.

thanks

kyle mc

[Karnaaj]

Have you had a chance to read the sticky on cycling in the newbie forum? If not you should. There is a lot of good info there on setting up a new tank. If I read your post correctly your problem is you bought too many fish to start out with. Also you bought two types of fish that don't make good starter fish, i.e. Rams and Clown Loach's. In all seriousness if you can return those fish you should. If you don't in all probability none of them will survive the breaking in period. Your lucky that you have a good sized tank, that will make things easier on you. But please read the aforementioned sticky.

[kylemc]

I read the sticky on cycle, i can see where i have errored. Now that i know what i have done wrong, how can i fix it? or at least keep all my fish alive? The sticky got kind of confusing, when posts started to contridict previous posts.

since reading that post i added stress zyme to my tank and i grabed a bunch of gravel from an existing healthy aquarium with my oscars in it and added that too. I also did a 15 % water change with what RO water i had left.

will i have to resort to 25+% water changes everyday for weeks? If not what should i do? I have called the pet store that i got all my fish from, and they won't take any back (they told me they were fine and that i probably have just sick fish dieing, none are sick though and none show signs of any fungus or external problems). None of my friends have a peacefull aquarium that i could put them in, and the other aquariums i own all have near full grown aggressive fish in them.

I lost another fish today, My hopes of raising these fish are quickly diminishing.
I don't like the situation that i'm in, i'm supposed to give them a new home one with a safe and stable environment and yet it seems that stable and safe are nowhere to be seen.

kyle

[LMOUTHBASS]

how have you bred fish in the past but not known about cycling?

[kylemc]

i've done the 3 day cycle like the LFS had told me on all my fish, I never had a problem really untill now, the average number of fish i have in each other aquarium is 2, this aquarium as you can tell is much more. I assume the reason my other attempts were successfull were do to the fact that i had such a small amount of fish per aquarium.

[PumaWard]

THe most important thing right now is water changes until your tank is cycled. You should also purchase at least an ammonia and nitrite test kit. You may need to do 50% daily based on your ammonia/nitrite readings.

pH and hardness are not generally important to keeping most fish. Most can and will adjust. Hardness and pH only really come into play when trying to breed because too hard water or water with a very hard pH makes eggs difficult to fertize.

My brother currently is keeping 8 rams in our tap, which has a pH of about 8. With one pair spawning consistantly.

I would not lose hope on your rams. Generally speaking, pet store bought rams are weaker than if you purchase them from a hobbyist or dwarf cichlid specialist, wild rams are also another good option. Most of these fish will be far more colorful and much hardier. Most pet store bought rams come from Asia and they keep them in pure RO water which doesn't help with their tolerance of other conditions. So, stick with it, and best of luck.

[kylemc]

thanks alot, i'll get the water changes underway right now


kyle

[Karnaaj]

Don't get discouraged, we have all been down that road before. Keep up your water changes and you should be OK. That was a good idea to take gravel out of one of your established tanks. That will speed things up somewhat.

I respectfully disagree about wild caught Rams being hardier than store bought Rams. One of the reasons that wild Rams are hardly ever seen anymore is because of the difficulty in keeping them. As a general rule of thumb, tank raised fish are usually easier to keep than wild caught. I do agree however that purchasing fish from local breeders is always an excellent idea as long as they maintain them well.

BTW what part of Alaska are you in?

[PumaWard]

Two ram breeders claim that wilds are as tough as European bred rams, who are very tough. We've bought rams from both these breeders.

[Karnaaj]

If I were to put wild caught Rams into the water I have here (high ph and high gh and kh) they would be dead in 48 hrs. Tank raised fish thrive. For people who are inexperienced or who are just looking for a nice fish to keep without all the hassles of manipulating tank chemistry, tank raised is the way to go.

[falcon]

Kylemc, how are your fish doing now?

For the future, and if your tank is still not cycled, swapping media/sponges/wood from an established tank helps with the cycling. Also, transfering water and gravel. If you do this from the start, your tank doesn't really go through a cycle as things are already established.

[kylemc]

Hello everyone

I'd like to start off by thanking all that have helped, i've had a lot of luck with my rams because of this site.
on a sad note i lost quite a bunch of rams, out of the original 10 i have 4 left, the LFS has been cool enough to let me wait to get my new rams since they came with a guarantee. I figure i'll chill with what i have and get used to them.

My nitrite levels have lowered, day 1 of water change nitrite was really bad at 1.0 50% change nitrite .3, 2nd day i added the gravel from my other tank nitrite 1.0, 50% change .3 again, 3rd day nitrite at .3 and is slowly going away, a little below .3 now, i have a color coded test and its between the last mark and the second. ammonia didn't seem so bad throughout the changes.

The last four have gained much color and have become rather active. I had to seperate two, what i observed was two rams constantly harassing the other two, the rams were always together it seemed. I put the other two in my guppy tank where they are doing great, i believer they are two males.

The two that i had left in the original tank are an interesting pair. Question, the two in the original tank are always with each other, one is almost 1cm larger than the other with large black spots with no blue inside and large dorsal fin and seems to be the most aggressive. The other is smaller and really light colored, two black spots on each side which are barely visible, blue dots all over, dorsal fin to me looks large for its size. I was watching them a bit ago and they have an interesting behavior. the large one gets in front of the small one and flares up and he makes his body curve similar to a U , then shakes his tail untill the little one gets bored or gets away. I need help sexing them? I wish my camera worked and i have no access to one, i hope my description is sufficiant .

thanks again

kylemc

[aprofromindia]

Add some real plants they will help immensly

[hughitt1]

hehe. better late then never i guess :)

[Cathy G]

Here is an excellent link - pictures and all. Also check out emg's "Gonna do another ram spawn' here on AC, under cichlids.

http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=26740

I lived in Ketchikan for 5 years - didn't have fish then, but miss alaska.

So, rams are very nitrogen sensitive, as you have discovered the hard way. For a fast solution, pick up/buy/order some Bio Spira, not biozyme - that stuff doesn't work very fast. Follow the directions, shake well and add to your tank for imediate help. There is more on this product in basic freshwater forum here, even as we speak, it is the subject of a discussion.

I have hard well water here in wisconsin, and mix my tap with RO to soften the water. Peat will help, but it won't do that much sorry to say. I can buy RO for 39 cents/gallon at my grocery store - it is on tap. (Knowing AK however, it will probably cost you a buck!)

What you need to consider before you are ready for more of them, is the long term costs of RO. Rams won't live long, or have any fry if your water is too hard. The eggs will not get fertilzed properly and will fungus/die. Ideally, they like very soft water with a gh under 6, and kh under 4 max. The pH isn't as important as the softness of the water, however they will do better in ph's of 6.5 -7. (Wild caughts will need to be placed in much lower pH's then this!) The rams will spawn - that is the easy part, the eggs won't make it and if you were wanting eggs/fry, you will have to hatch them yourself and that will use even more RO water.

There is one other option, Bolivian rams. They are hardier and can take more alkaline conditions. NOT what you have out of your tap, but you won't need quite as much RO and they are hardier/healthier fish. Unfortunately, they are not as striking and colorful.

As to the wild caught versus tank bred for health - it will depend on your water. A wild caught, once it's been dewormed, etc will do well in a tank with water like his/her own water was. Their immune systems will be geared to fight off the bacteria that lives naturally in that water. They were tough enough to survive being caught and shipped, they will make it in a tank. However, if the tank water is not to their liking, if the pH is too high, etc, then their immune systems might not be effective at combating the bacteria which grows in their new environment.

The problem with tank bred rams is that most of them come from Asia where they have been pumped full of hormones and antibiotics from early on. So, some of them are infertile, and their natural resistance to various pests/diseases is shot. They live 4-6 months and die. If you are lucky they might make it a year.

In my mind, the best rams for our tanks are from local breeders. They have been reared in clean water, without chemical help and and more accimated to tank conditions.

Sorry for the long post, I love these fish and once I get started, don't stop! Make sure you have LOTS of hiding places in your tank for them. The female will need to be able to get away from the male once in a while when she is not ready to lay eggs and he wants to spawn.

Good luck with your decisions,
Cathy

[Cathy G]

Sorry again, just noticed that you were setting up a 72g tank? That will be able to house many rams if they all have a proper territory. You will need lots of driftwood, and plants - try anubias and java fern, they don't get planted, but attached to wood and rocks. They also can do well in a low lighting situation. You can also float hornwort and wisteria/watersprite. Try to arrange the tank so that one fish won't be able to see down a straightaway to another. Break up lines of vision. If you can load this thing with plants/driftwood, you will have an opportunity to set up a kind of colony with many pairs - it will be cool! (Can also do it with Bolivians..) Actually, you could get a couple of pairs of blues and also get a pair of bolivians... if you decide to go with the RO. Also, you might want to add Kent's RO right to the RO water - it adds back the necessary electrolytes, etc.

Cathy Again.

[Star_Rider]

Very good info from Cathy.

One of the things I did for my rams(bolivian) was take peices of driftwood, attach a bunch of java fern and let it grow into a curtain..I have 2 pairsof bolivians in a 20 ..that hardly see each other.

[InR reason]

Two ram breeders claim that wilds are as tough as European bred rams, who are very tough. We've bought rams from both these breeders.

I would have to agree with this. My PH is a contant 7.4 and I have moderatly hard well water. All three of my Rams are doing just as well as the other fish in the 15H. I was very religous when the tank was cycling.. probably changing about 10-20% of the water everyday. And I did so for several weeks until my nitrites fell below .25ppm.

I wish you luck and would encourage you to try Rams agian once everything is settled in your tank.

[why`o`why]

hi im new here but reading this,this is just what happened to my blue rams. i have a large established tank (8ft) going on 2 yrs now with only a few small fish- tail light tetra and striped dominos ect. a humbug(striped/talking)catfish and one unknown plec bright yellow and around 6" long all living there ok.
now i got 6 blue rams and within days id lost 'em all they were breathing very very fast and kinda flipping around in small summersalts as appose to swimming in a straight line.This was most upsetting to see. i really like rams and would like nothing more than a tank full of 'em but i dare not buy any more for risking the same thing.i have a test kit that was around £80 so it should be fairly ok i have no nitrate or amonia problems in the tank and im told my water is soft, i tested the ph and that was 7.5/7.9. also before i lost these lovely fish they were floating just below the surface of the water facing up slightly as if trying to get more air. Im hopeing someone will take the time to help a poor english guy who cant spell to save his life :)

[Cathy G]

Hi,
Lets get to the bottom of this... I am sure there are folks who can help you.

1. What is your water change schedule? Do you change small amounts of water every week?

2. What is your gh and kh? Do you have a test kit, what are your readings?

3. What are your water parameter numbers, as in ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Especially check that nitrate level!

It could well be that you have 'old tank' syndrome and that will kill any new arrivals. Get us some numbers, oh, what temp is your water? Does your city water supply ever use chloramines instead of chlorine?

While it is possible to have soft water with a higher pH, it isn't that common I think. So, perhaps your water has become hard over the years if water changes haven't been all that consistant. In that case the rams could have suffered from some kind of osmotic shock or something.

Hope to hear from you soon,
Cathy

[why`o`why]

[QUOTE=Cathy G]Hi,
Lets get to the bottom of this... I am sure there are folks who can help you.

1. What is your water change schedule? Do you change small amounts of water every week?

2. What is your gh and kh? Do you have a test kit, what are your readings?

3. What are your water parameter numbers, as in ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Especially check that nitrate level!



Hello, thx for the fast reply I'll try to answer as best i can but its quite late over here in blighty, so im somewhat sleepy :)
ok
1. water change is done 15%-20% per week with filter medium being cleaned on a monthly basis. Also monthly moving of decor to clean under it. Water i replace with is tap water treated with stress zyme and aged for 2 days before the change in a large container with a lid.After every change i also add stress coat to the tank.
2. I'm afraid i do not know the gh or kh i can test for gh with my test kit in the morning but my kit does not mention kh? so i hve no idea what this is (srry) what level am i looking for with the gh?
3. i do a check on these once a week at the mid week point they are- ammonia 0 ppm and nitrate 0 ppm

Hope this helps some.

[why`o`why]

ok i couldnt sleep on it. i tested the gh (for the 1st time) i think im reading it correctly to be gh=11 or 196.9 ppm.
Is this my problem? and if so how do i correct it as im not buying any more fish until im 100% sure they will be ok in my tank.
hope you can help again :)

[Cathy G]

Ok, your water is extremely hard. Are you sure you have 0 nitrAtes? or is it 0 nitrItes? If it really is 0 nitrates, are you dosing/fertilizing nitrates for the plants? If your tank is properly cycled, there really should be some nitrates - unless your plants are eating them all...

What temp is your tank? Rams like 82-84.

Can you check the gh of your tap water? Lets see if it is that hard - or if your hard water has been built up over the last couple of years.

Cathy

[why`o`why]

hi again,
ok my tank temp is 82 and looking at my test card thing it is my nitrite that is o ppm there is not a test in the kit for nitrate. you mentioned plants also, i dont put anything in for the plants but there are a lot of plants and bogwood in the tank.
just tested the tap water direct form the tap and that comes out at at gh=15
however i have no idea what all this means :(
Is this gh my problem then you think?
oh and thx again.

[Cathy G]

Sound to me like you might have old tank syndrome, tomorrow you should probably get a nitrAte test kit. Normally your nitrates should be less than 20 to keep blue rams healthy. My guess is that they are fairly high - the fish in the tank have slowly gotten used to it, but add anything new, and zap - they die.

Your water is hard, not soft. If you want rams you will have to start mixing it with some RO water. (Water that has been distilled by Reverse Osmosis). I can get this water on tap at my local grocery store - perhaps you can find a simular source?

Or, you might choose not to get blue rams. Their cousins the Bolivians, can take a little harder water. They are not as pretty though. Find out about your nitrates before you make any decisions. If they do turn out to be high, you will have to bring them down very very slowly or you might hurt your existing fish. (Very very slowly, as in daily small water changes). You should also test the nitrates coming out of your tap water - sometimes they are fairly high and then you have to find another water source for your tank.

Hope all this helps!
Cathy

[why`o`why]

Thanks for all yr help i'll get on it tomorrow , not sure where i could buy ro water from though.... but i'll work it all out now im sure :) at least i will after i get some well needed sleep.
thx again, i'll post here again when i get it all sorted
regards Ian

[Cathy G]

Whyowhy,
So what ever happened? What did you figure out?
Cathy

[okief1sh]

Many LFS sell RO water as well, although they in my experience they tend to charge significantly more for it.

[Sully]

couple of things.

as Cathy mentioned, rams are sensitive to nitrogen.

Farm raised rams (much of what you receive at the lfs) are very often stillsuffering the effects, and looking good while doing so, of incredible hormone levels as a result of practices designed to spur breeding activity. The farms are in a very commercial business. They will utilize techniques hobbyists frown upon to induce spawning. They get fish--they also damage them.

Many farm fish come to you with parasites. Rams are more the rule than the exception (ime).

Rams are also prone to bacterial issues.

QT tanks are essential to control the introduction of species to your comminity tanks.

I found success with "store bought" rams when taking the "medicate first, diagnose later" approach. I placed the rams into QT tanks. Typically treated first with Maracyn and Maracyn II. Then I utilized levamisole hydrochloride to deworm. I achieved nominally better results attacking potential bacterial issues first. It is not a practice i enjoy--treatment without proper id--or suggest for most fish. I will deworm adult wild caughts without waiting for symptoms as well. I guess you just have to pick your moments to veer from standard practices.

Finally. Rams are cichlids. Microgeophagus ramirezi. Tiny little eartheaters. Consideration of those two points should be given. Substrate should be fine enough (sandy) to permit sifting for food. territories should be somewhere between 2 1/2 x 3 sq ft minimum. placing 10 rams in a 72 will most likely create stocking induced problems as you go down the road. 2 pair in a 72 is about the limit (imo). with great tank design and passive specimens you might, just might, get away with a couple of more--sort of doubt it tough.

Good luck.

[Cathy G]

Sully - how much levimasole hydrochloride do you dose? I have some powder from the local Farm and Fleet - but am unsure how much to put in. So, a long time ago I put in 1/8 teaspoon per 10g water... what would you suggest?
Cath

[Sully]

With rams I used 200-400mg per 10 gallons. Here is a link that really discusses Levamisole in an in-depth fashion.

http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/nematodes.html#4