high nitrate levels cont.

[kraig m.]

My PH usually stays at 8.0, except if I don't do a water change for about 3 weeks then it gets to 7.8. I keep the temerature at 74 to 75 degrees. So should I just go ahead and take the bio wheel out of the filter. All it would be doing now is leaking nitrate back into the water, right. And with the airstones, I use to have two in the tank until I got the sump with the skimmer setup. I then took the two out of the tank and put one down in the sump. I figured it would help about the same. And I use to have a seaclone 150 skimmer, until the new setup, and I gave it to a friend of mine. He didn't have one on his tank, so he really needed it. And I also heard that you can skim a tank to much. That does seem hard to believe. And another reason that I kept the canister filter hooked up was because it has one of the long spray bars that goes across the width of the tank, and gives the water good circulation. The fish seem to like it too. especially the puffer. He sometimes swims under it. But actually that worries me when he does, because his gills are moving kind of fast, like he's having a hard time breathing. He hasn't done that in a while. Actually he quit doing that after I unplugged the maxijet powerhead that was going. That's odd huh. Could I take the filter floss thats in the canister filter and put some other type of media in it. Or maybe even live rock, but I guess thats impossible without light for it. Well what ever opinions anyone has would be great. I also thought about putting a DSB in the return part of the sump or miracle mudd with macroalgae. Can I do this? If so how? How much light would I need also? I almost forgot has anybody tried algone. The web site says it will bring down nitrates, and it also has some supplements in it for coralline algae growth. Is this true? Does the stuff really work?
kraig m.

[Dale W.]

Aloha Kraig,

I skimmed through your other post to see what you had for a substrate in your tank but did not see it. What is it and how much?

The fact that your PH is dropping like is, tells me that your Nitrate problem is due to excessive debris that is trapped which was touched on in the other post. When you feed, do you target feed or drop food in the tank and hope that the fish find it? Target feeding will be the best way to go here. Puffers, as mentioned, do create a lot of waste which will of course attribute to the problem but target feeding will help.

The ETS skimmer that you have is a good one and adding another skimmer, well, I don't think is going to do much for you. You need to find the cause rather than adding another band aid. The media in your filters is not helping. What I did on one of my tanks was to keep the canister filter running but without any media at all. Of course I didn't have a sump on that one either. If you like the spray bar set up, hook it back up to your power head for circulation. Watch where your excess food goes so you know what areas need extra attention in cleaning. You basically want to get rid of anything that is trapping and holding debris that will increase nitrates. Unfortunately your filters are part of the problem. BTW, the airstones don't really do much for you except create a mess. They will stir the surface up a bit but wont add O2 into the water with the exception of surface agitation.

[kraig m.]

I have CC in my tank probably an inch to an inch and a half deep. I thought that is probably where the problem of the nitrates is coming from. I'm not sure. I set up the tank before I new about the DSB method. I jumped into it with out studying up on any type of material first. I just took the fish stores recommendations. That was a big mistake! I tried to add a little live argonite sand to the bed, (very small amounts at a time). But I only added about 5lbs. or so. I heard that if you covered up the exhisting sand bad to quick that you could have a big problem. Is there any way I can fix this problem. Replace or add substrate to make a DSB. And with the feedings of my fish, I feed them out of tongs. They come up and eat the krill out of them. So I have no excess food at all left over. I know puffers suppose to be messy eaters, but mine is not bad at all. At first he spit the food out. Now he's not a bit messy. He doesn't spit anything out at all. If I take all the media out of my canister filter, can I still put chemical type's of media in the compartments like carbon and nitrate sponge. And should I take the bio-wheel off the mechanical filter. I was also thinking about getting the algone product to help bring my nitrates down. What are your thoughts on that product? Is it worth buying? Thanks for all the help. I'm getting alot out of this web-site. I wish I new about it before I ever started in the hobby. I forgot to add about the sump which is a berlin style. If the debris that is trapped in the canister filter can cause a high nitrate problem, what about the filter sock in the sump? Can it do the same thing. You have to have something to catch debris don't you? Or how would the tank ever get cleaned without something to catch the debris? And again thanks for the help.
kraig m.

[Dale W.]

The CC is more than likely part of the problem. Yu can add sand to the substrate slowly like you were doing. A bit more than 5lbs is needed to make this happen though. the course stuff will eventually end up on top in which you can gradually take that out if you want the sand only for substrate. There is some debate on the effectiveness of the depth of the sand, Robert Toonen has just finished a study which I am waiting for the write up. we talked about the DSB theory a bit and his preliminary results indicated that the depth didnt make a lot of difference. However, this was on a study of aprox. 6 months if I remember so I dont think it shows much for a long term effect. The drawback with sand in a tank with a puffer and an eel is that it will get stirred up a bit. I take it that you do not have an undergravel filter, correct?

The filters:
Yes you can take the media out and use them for chemical filtering only but only do one at a time at this point as to not shock the system to greatly. I would start by taking the biowheel off. The sock in the sump will indeed add to the problem if it is not washed out very regularely. Do you have any other media in the sump that will collect debris and hold it there?

How do you clean your tank at this point. I am guessing that you do not vaccuum the gravel because of the sand that is present. Do you ocasionaly move the rocks to see what is underneeth them. I generally dont like to do that but in this case you may need to until you get a sand bed established.

[kraig m.]

I do vacuum the sand bed. The sand I added wasn't the real fine live sand, but the carribisea sand. It was a little course not much though. It's course enough to where I can vacuum it. I did move my rocks not long ago and vacuum under them. I moved all of them but the three that the eel stays under. I didn't want to desturb him. As far as the sump having anything else to catch debris, besides the sock it just has in the middle the bio-media. Its like having the bio-balls except its the long white plastic strips. It's probably a good idea to take that out to isn't it. The only problem I have is what is going to catch the debris. I guess like you said as long as I leave the sock in the sump and clean it often, it will be ok. I clean it ever time I do a water change. That was every three weeks, a 30% water change. I'm going to change that to doing a water change every week, and clean the filter sock. Will the sock be enough to catch all the debris? And should I take out the other media in the sump? And your saying it is ok to add small amounts of live sand to the tank over time. Do I need to use the real fine live sand? Or is the live sand that I mentioned earlier ok? thanks for the help.
kraig m.

[Dale W.]

I am finding out that you have more and more media that can trap debris for nitrates. Lets see, you have 1) CC for a substrate, 2)filter with a biowheel, 3) canister filter, 4) sock in the sump, 5) bio media in the sump. You have a very large factory production here. My advise would be to start eliminating the bio media and add sand to your tank. You should be able to get it down to only having the sock in the sump which should realy be cleaned out every couple of days. If you really dont get much in the sock, you can get rid of that as well. I will also suggest adding some more rock to the tank. Your filter media will become the rock and sand in the tank over time. You might even think about adding some Caulerpa and a light to the sump which will also help in nitrate reduction. DId you have aquariums a few years ago? I am asking because having a lot of bio media and plenty of nitrifying bacteria was the norm back then so I am seing a little bit of old school thought here.

[kraig m.]

Actually no I never had a tank until this one, and a small fresh water tank. They were both set up pretty close to the same time. The people at the fish store give me this setup not even a year ago. I don't listen to anything they say anymore. Especially when I started reading up on the subject. I got a lot of good information out of "Natural Reef Aquariums" by John H. Tulluck. Good book. If I had the tank to setup over I would do it completely different. So what type of sand should I use, as far as grain size? Should I just keep putting down the same type of sand that I was before, so I can still vacuum? Or is it ok to put the real fine sand down over top of the crushed coral like that? Because I do have a thriving community of Amphiopods in the tank, and you would think if you put the real fine sand down over the crushed coral it would cover them up and they would have no where to go except for in the rock. I took all of the media out of the canister filter, and put in some kent nitrate sponge like the other guy suggest I do. I already had it. So why not use it. I also took the bio-wheel out of the Emperor. I changed out the filter pad though. So actually that gives me another place to catch debris. Do you think this will be ok to leave the filter pad in the Emperor, as long as I change it out once a week or sooner. or should I go ahead and take it out too. And about the live rock I'v been wanting to put more in, but it is hard to find any good live rock around here. Do you know of a place to get it from off of the internet? I know shipping can break a person. I know alot of people have those ecosystem sumps which incorporates the miracle mud with macro-algae and some live rock. I'v just got a regular berlin style ETS sump. Can I put live rock down in the sump if I put a small PC light over it? And if so how much light would I need? Thanks again.
kraig m.

[brovo2zero]

High nitrate levels are caused by a bio filter doing its job you could build your self a nitrate reactor if it's really high levels that will help to fix your problem with nitrates and probly limit your water changes to ..

If you dont mind doing water changes just dont forget to do them else everything in your tank can suffer ..

Here is a link for a DIY nitrate reactor
http://ozreef.org/component/option,com_weblinks/catid,109/Itemid,4/

[kraig m.]

Thanks for the info. I forgot about the denitrators. I thought they quit making them. I'm going to look more into it. I forgot to add about if I take all of the filters out of the canister filter and take the bio-wheel off and the bio-bale out of the sump, what about the bacteria that breaks down ammonia, and nitrite's? If there is no media available to break down the ammonia, and nitrites what will? That may seem like a stupid question. But I really don't know. I'm starting to understand pretty well now. But still I have been in this a little under a year now. There is so much information on the subject it is hard to know what to do and know not what to do. I guess you got to use your own judjment on that with the information that you gather. But I do appreciate all the help. And I'm not trying to be difficult. I just want to find out all I can for this tank so when I set up the 180gal. tank, I'll do it right.
kraig m.

[Dale W.]

No problem with wanting to find things out.

OK, here is, was and will be the theory behind nitrifying bacterial colonies.
It has always been understood, primarily, that the nitrification cycle consists of three basic groupings, or stages as we know them. The first being Ammonia(NH3)(NH4) which is the primary source for the nitrobacteria of Nitrites(NO2) which is the primary source for Nitrates(NO3) thus completing the cycle. Keeping in mind, through all this that we need a food for the ammonia to grow which we will call this Waste, in the organic compound of R-NH2. Hmmmm, but wait, the nitrates keep going off the scale so there must be a 4th factor. Low and behold there is. Nitrogen(N2,N2O) in the free form stage. This is where the terms "aerobic" and "anaerobic" come in to play. Aerobic bacteria thrives in O2 rich environments where anaerobic bacteria thrives in very low O2 environments. The theory of the wet/dry system was to create a wet area where nitrifying bacteria thrive through super oxygenated media that was suspended above the water line. We know that the O2 content in the air is much greater than the O2 content in water so we were able to sustain a much larger bacterial colony on the media that was not submerged but subjected to as much air as possible and still remain wet. The wet/dry filter was, for the most part, short lived. This same theory in relation holds true for undergravel filters as well. We use to circulate water through them to provide as much O2 as we could to keep the bacterial bed alive. The problem with this system is the trapped debris that becomes part of the media. Any debris becomes a food source for nitrifying bacteria as the whole cycle is constant, so the more areas for debris, the more bacteria you will grow. So how does the anaerobic bacteria come into play. Well, us old-timers get to throw out everything that we were taught about bacterial beds and do the opposite of what we had been dong for years. Create dead spots in the substrate. WHAT????, you cant do that, man I hate it when they are right. The introduction of the deep sand bed. By creating dead zones (no O2), we are creating areas for anarobic bacteria to thrive. This is called de-nitrification. Anaerobic bacteria thrives on nitrates(NO3) which in turn is converted into free nitrogen gas(N2,N2O) that is expelled through the surface of the tank.

Where am I going with all this? well, I was just thinking the same thing, J/K. :soda:

Now to answer your question about media and nitrates. As you can tell, you don't have a problem growing this bacterial form. The problem is controlling them. Part of the reason I wanted to explain the nitrogen cycle is so you have a better understanding of where these critters live and how. So now we know that Nitrates like O2 rich environments. You will still have more than enough surface areas that are O2 rich to house nitrates which will occur on all the decor in the tank that is exposed to water flow. What we want to achieve is the areas that we can create the necessary environments in which anaerobic bacteria thrives. This will be the controlling factor in Nitrates. Creating the DSB is doing just that.

As far as denitrators go, I personally wouldn't waste the money on them. I have tested many of them out and I really don't care for them. I would rather find the cause then add a band aid. Sure, there are instances where they are beneficial but for the most part, not at home.

So, did I just complicate the situation and confuse you even more?

[Gealcath]

The Ocean doesnt use denitrificators so there is no reason to use something that gets the same result as a DSB. All a denitrification reactor does is creates a low oxygen enviornment for Aenerobic bacteria to grow. A DSB creates the same situation, as was previously mentioned since Aenerobic bacteria live in oxygen poor enviornment, they take the Oxygen from Nitrates which then creates harmless Nitrogen Gas completing the Nitrogen Cycle. Aenerobic bacteria also will live int he pores and crevices of rocks.


For just a closed aquarium system a denitrator is REALLY an expense not needed, and the more mechanical filtration and outside gadgets needed, you gradually make a more artifical enviornment then a natural one (The ideal of aquarium keeping is to reproduce the same processes that happen in nature rather then use outside equipment to do it for you)

[kraig m.]

Actually that helps out alot. I think I understand. In order for the nitrates to deplete from the system you have to have a place with low O2 content. See I think I got it now. So you have to have both aerobic and aenerobic bacteria in a tank. So the good water flow that you have above the DSB can be the high O2(aerobic bacteria) place, and below in the DSB is where all your anerobic bacteria grows to control the nitrate, that way there's always a continuous cycle. That is where I was having the most trouble is understanding the basic concepts of the nitrogen cycle. I beleive you have cleared that up for me. One more thing. Since I need to add a DSB to the tank and I know it suppose to be deep, how much sand can I add to it at a time without hurting the fish I have in the tank? And I beleive I asked this before, but which sand will be best to use over the crushed coral? Should I use a real fine live sand or will sand that is a little coarse be ok? You would think the finer the sand less deep the bed would have to be, in order to get no O2 down there, in order for the anaerobic bacteria to thrive. Thanks for all the help. I have learned alot. I forgot to add something again I do it every time. When I do water changes I vacuum the gravel bed. Should I quit doing this? I know when I make the DSB I shouldn't vacuum it. That would just disturb the anaerobic bacteria, wouldn't it? So until I get the DSB should I just leave the sand bed alone? When I do vacuum it there's alot of stuff coming out of the bed. It's real cloudy looking. I thought I was removing the nitrates. I have heard several times to leave a sand bed alone, to not touch it. I never knew why.
kraig m.

[Gealcath]

The smaller the grain size of the sand the better, because it creates more surface area for bacteria to colonize. If you have a good cleanup crew you shouldnt have to vaccum the substrate because everything stays ontop of the sand bed, which will eventually get eaten by the cleanup crew (remember everything on a reef is food for something else, even waste products). However the thing about not disturbing a sand bed is mostly due to possible Anoxic (As in 0 Oxygen present) areas that can "possibly" develop (usually by having a DSB thats too deep or that doesnt get sifted well enough). Since a Anoxic area is devoid of any Oxygen, nothing can survive in there not even bacteria, so stuff that decays tends to produce toxic gases like Sulfphur type gasses that have the "rotten egg" smell.


Although thats something that VERY rariliy happens, since even with a 3-4" DSB and good water flow it usually stays oxygenated enough where its not a worry. Also a sudden rush of Oxygenated water will kill the Aenerobic bacteria you want so its another reason to not disturb it too much.

[Dale W.]

At this point until you get the DSB established, you should still vacuum the detritus from the bottom. After you get the bed going you will no longer need to do this eccept an ocasional surface cleaning to rid the sand of the setimant.

A clean up crew is a good thing to have but you will have to be selective on what you put in there. Since you have a puffer, most crabs, hermit crabs and crustations will be out. They are a favorite food for these guys.

As far as grain size goes, well, the finer sand is better but again, with the fish that you have, the sand will more than likely get stirred up a bit. The grain size isnt so much for surface area for colonization but more for density to creat anaerobic areas in a shallower depth.

Anaerobic is defined as "without oxygen" These are bacterial forms that can survive in no oxygen areas and depending on the strain will actually die off if subjected to oxygen. So to say that nothing can survive in a 0 oxygen environment would be a false statement. There is always the risk in deeper pockets of creating hydrgen sulphide gasses but these instances are rare unless you are creating a bed of 6" or more.

Here is another short but in depth explanation of the reactions creating the cycle. In the process of nitrification of wastewater, the two key bacteria of ecological importance are nitrosomonas and nitrobacteria. These bacteria facilitate "catalyze" the reactions. Nitrosomonas results in the removal of three pairs of electrons from ammonia facilitating the formation of nitrite and nitrobacteria removes two electrons from nitrite to form nitrate. The bacteria responsible for denitrification are autotrophic and heterotrophic facultative anaerobes.

[Gealcath]

Anerobic is low Oxygen (There is hardly any Oxygenated water but there is Oxygen present), Anoxic is 0 Oxygen (no Oxygen whatsoever), which is what i am comparing, there 2 diffrent areas, the 2 often get confused.

[kraig m.]

thanks everyone for all the help. I'm on my way to getting rid of the nitrates. If there is anything else that needs to be added, I'm up for all that has to be said. But I beleive you all have pretty much covered everything that I need to know. And thanks again.
kraig m.