filters

[nativelady76]

ok i have 4 rainbow cichlids in a 55 gallon and a on the back filter on one end of my tank and was going back and forth about if i should get another on the back filter or a undergravel filter that would cover both ends...what i want to know is what do you think about these kinds of filters..thanks

[acefred]

What about canister filters???? Those are the best in my opinion. Stay away from UGF they are a pain and can produce hudge amounts of Nitrates.

[nativelady76]

what is the smallest size tank you can have to use a canister...i dont even know what those look like..i have heard of them but never seen them

[Raskolnikov]

I'd vote for canister as well.

Also, a bio-wheel is not so much a type of filter, as it is a feature on some filters. There are HOB, canister, and even trickle filters (like the Tidepool) that all incorporate a Bio-wheel.

[acefred]

any size will work..............They are an external sealed "pail" with media in them (work great)...........have a look
http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/category.xml?pcid1=2885;category_id=1711

[nativelady76]

those are kinda spendy dont you think

[Raskolnikov]

We can reduce those prices for you!


http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/category.xml?pcid1=2885;category_id=1711 ;) ;)

[MikeO]

I was wondering, should I get a canister filters? I right now have 2 traditional over flow, 1 bio-wheel over flow, and the UG fillter, should I add a canister to the mix, or would that be over kill?

[acefred]

those are kinda spendy dont you think


Canadian prices..you can do alot better in the states, I was just usinig this page to show you what they are.............. :D

[jib]

I would also like to vote for cannisters, I like how you can for the most part you can hide them. Also they allow you to put the tank closer to a wall, than with HOBs(my second choice). Just my opinion.

[Dangerdoll]

I would've also split that list differently being that the bio-wheel isn't really a filter, but a filter feature..... I know it goes for HOB's....... so, that being said, I would've split the list into UGF / HOB / Cannister.

[Harlock]

I have two penguin 125s with Bio-wheels. great little filter. Always restart after I power them down and on again. Having said that, when I get a larger aquarium (90-120 gallon) I am definitely going with canister filters. I want to plant heavily and with a tank that big I want to use pressurized CO2 and the canister filter. Also, UGFs don't produce nitrites. That's just an absurd statement. Poor maintenance causes high nitrites.

[Watcher74]

I bought an Eheim 2128 Pro II Canister Thermofilter for my 55 gallon that I am setting up.

Talk about pricey, ~$330 USD from Big Als. You could expect to pay around $600 in a LFS for one.

But man, what an awesome filter!

[Marc999]

This poll is not very reliable as my hang on the back includes a biowheel. I'll select both then ;).

[Web Gazelle]

Also, UGFs don't produce nitrites. That's just an absurd statement. Poor maintenance causes high nitrites.

I have to agree with this. UGF's do a fine job and don't produce nitrates or nitrites. Lack of regular cleaning causes nitrates.

[CaptnDan]

any size will work..............They are an external sealed "pail" with media in them (work great)...........have a look
http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/category.xml?pcid1=2885;category_id=1711


I followed that link, and it made me feel pretty darned good about the Fluval 404 I bought today... I got it from a LFS and paid less than the price on the web page - and no shipping.

I have used HOB's all along, but I decided to switch to the Fluval 404 to handle my 55g.

[Raskolnikov]

CaptnDan,

The link that you quoted is for the Big Al's *CANADA* (.ca) site. They are charging $92.99 USD for the Fluval 404 w/ media.

I tried to show this in my earlier post to this thread when the creator balked at the prices.

[daveedka]

I couldn't really vote with the options given, I have never used cannisters simply because I found other options just as good (maybe better)for less money, back when I couldn't afford cannisters. I will be trying a couple out on my next tank though.
As for my preferences, I never run one filter only, and usually always have a UGF and an HOB with a biowheel (emporer or penguin) so as you can see it's hard to answer your poll. I do run a few HOB's without bio-wheels, but wasn't fond of them until recently when I started into the world of planted tanks.
Dave

[nativelady76]

sorry i didnt add the canister filters out there but i didnt even know that they were out there but from the sound of things or the look for that matter it seems most people really dont like the ugf's ...what reasons if you could tell me what is so bad about this kind of filter that i should not get one of these? :confused:

[Harlock]

sorry i didnt add the canister filters out there but i didnt even know that they were out there but from the sound of things or the look for that matter it seems most people really dont like the ugf's ...what reasons if you could tell me what is so bad about this kind of filter that i should not get one of these? :confused:
Thy are harder to maintain and most people do not clean them properly. Also, as cheap as power filters are these days, comparatively speaking to a UGF+powerhead, you may as well get a filter that is much easier to maintain and still does a bang-up job of cleaning the water. And, if you have the money, canister filters are even better, especially in a planted tank. Of course, depending on the job you need done different filters will fill the bill. For instance, I wouldn't use a power filter or canister on a fry/growout tank. May as well use a sponge filter for that. Same for a quarantine tank. Different tanks have different filtration needs. If you are happy with a UGF, by all means, use one. I have used UGFs in the past and found that they work very effectively. I had no problems with mine. Of course, now, having used power filters, I wouldn't likely switch back. Maybe an RF-UGF if I had a certain need... but right now, I don't even ened the reverse flow undergravel, so, meh.

[daveedka]

it seems most people really dont like the ugf's ...what reasons if you could tell me what is so bad about this kind of filter that i should not get one of these?

There is a contingency of people who don't seperate filter failure from lack of maintenance very well. UGF's are one of the most neglected, and poorly maintained filter formats out there and therefore they have developed a bad reputation. Secondly, UGF's are primarily a bio filter, which leaves something to be desired for mechanical filtration.
Most people who use UGF put them under their gravel, and never do anything to maintain them, then when they casue problems, they write the filter off as bad. I would gladly stack my ugf against any other filter format in a maintenance free time trial. The fact is that any filter if not maintained, will eventually cause problems, and the UGF will be the last to go. For more information read this article:
http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=17&page=1

I run UGF's in reverse flow configuration on all of my tanks, and probably always will, there is simply no comparison when you add cost, ease of maintenance, and bio-filtration capabilities. There are other filter formats capable of the same things, but none as inexpensive, dependable or easy to maintain IMO. I much prefer the Reverse flow set-up simply because it has the added bonus of mechanical filtration, and eliminates any need for vaccuming gravel. I have run UGF's in conventional configuration for long periods as well and there is a little more maintenance involved, but they are still very easy to maintain.

I also firmly believe in using multiple filters and multiple formats to accomplish multiple things in my tanks. IMO there is no "one size fits all one type fits all" answer, but rather many good formats with many different capabilities so that a hobbyist can adjust things to their liking. My recomendation is find out what people like about each format, figure out what you want to try and go with it. if you don't lke it try something alse and Yard sale the leftovers. You will find what you like, and what works best for you. Don't be afraid to customise either.
Dave
dave

[TommyR]

Bio wheels ARE HOB filters.

I have a mini on a 10 gal and I'm about to start up a 20 high with an Aquaclear 30 with 2 sponges and maybe some floss in between the sponges.

I'm anxious to try the Aquaclear!

Tom

[daveedka]

Bio wheels ARE HOB filters

In most cases yes, but they are available to add to any filter return to the tank (i.e. cannisters, or sumps) as an add on bio-filter. there are also many people who run the penguin and Emp series sans bio-wheel for a multitude of reasons. The bio-wheel itself really is and should be considered a seperate filter from the rest of the HOB is run with.
Dave

[Ryan45]

Well I vote for canisiter filters. I have a whisper power 60 and this thing is just loud!! I got my Eheim 2026 pro 2 for $150 with media at BIG AL's special about 4 days ago. It is silent and I can't wait to take out hang on back filter in about 3-4 weeks. Also the great thing about canisiter filters is they don't need as much cleaning as HOB filters. You can go about 3 or more months then rinse the media and reuse it!!! Awseome! If you have a small tank and are looking for a canister go with the filstar XP or a Ehiem Classic.

[daveedka]

You can go about 3 or more months then rinse the media and reuse it!!! Awseome!

Don't let yourself believe that unless you customize it with prefilters of some kind. Cannisters will plug up just as easy as HOB's, and generally they don't allow water to bypass like HOB's therefore they simply slow down until they stop if not properly maintained. ANY filter needs good maintenance to do it's job properly, and cannisters are no exception.
Dave

[Luvin'Nemo]

Hi. I think this is on topic, so I'm going to throw a question out there...

I've got a Penguin Bio-Wheel 125 and am considering also using an undergravel, but I keep going back and forth about it because there are so many different opinions out there on filters. I've not set up the tank, but am trying to do so in the most fiscally efficient way possible :). This is for a 29-gallon tank. Would the combination of these two be sufficient? Should I go another route? Any recommendations??? I like the idea of the cannisters, but not the price tag.

Thanks for your help!

[TommyR]

Hi. I think this is on topic, so I'm going to throw a question out there...

I've got a Penguin Bio-Wheel 125 and am considering also using an undergravel, but I keep going back and forth about it because there are so many different opinions out there on filters. I've not set up the tank, but am trying to do so in the most fiscally efficient way possible :). This is for a 29-gallon tank. Would the combination of these two be sufficient? Should I go another route? Any recommendations??? I like the idea of the cannisters, but not the price tag.

Thanks for your help!


Forget the under gravel. One hang on the back filter is enough.

Tom

[Luvin'Nemo]

Great! So I guess I'll just go with what I've got so far. Thanks for your help!

[ryknier]

Fluval 404!!!!

[daveedka]

Great! So I guess I'll just go with what I've got so far. Thanks for your help!

If you tank isn't already set-up, I would highly reccomend an undergravel especially in reverse flow configuration. IMO one filter is never enough, and an RFUG is virtually maintenance free and an extremely effective bio-filter as well as a decent secondary mechanical filter.

If the tank is already set I would look at a second fiter of some other type, to add stability to the sytem.
For more info on RFUG sheck out this article:
http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=17&page=1
It will answer almost any question you have.
dave

[oztun]

Well I'm one of those who wrote off UGF's years ago, but seeing how knowledgable Daveedka is I will reconsider. I didn't neglect mine rather I did not know maintenance was even possible. How do you clean under it? I know you don't take the gravel out or it would defeat the purpose.

[oztun]

Forgot to mention. The reason I'd love to use reverse UGF plus HOB or canister is not having to vacuum the gravel. It's not that I'm lazy it's that I like heavily planted tanks and they are a real pain to clean.

[gsk177]

This is just my opinion, as I have owned HOB, BioWheel and canister filters.

Canisters are great for any tank. The drawbacks to them are the lack of turnover rate. Even the largest Eheim, the 2128 only gets around 270 GPH (gallons per hour) whereas the Aquaclear 500/110 turns over 500 gph.
Canisters do excel in the fact that they hold a whole buttload of media, meaning they have exceptional biological capabilities. These can be especially usefull if you have a large bioload or need extra media for seeding new tanks. If you are stocking the tank with fairly clean fish, canisters are perfect. If you are stocking the tank with dirty fish like cichlids and such, they simply do not perform an adequate amount of mechanical filtration needed.
Another drawback is that you have to mount those dreaded intake and outlet tubes. In a smaller tank (less than 75 gallons) it is hard to make these tubes asthetically pleasing.
A big plus in the planted tank is that a canister can be setup as though to not create alot of surface movement which increases the rate of CO2 loss.

HOB and Biowheel filters fall under similar categories. I am in love with Aquaclear filters and do not currently own any other brand filter. HOB filters move a lot of water which in turn makes for more debris removal and more circulation. Suspended particles tend to get picked up quicker with my Aquaclear than they did with my Eheim.
The drawbacks to HOB filters are that they are limited in size and thus cannot hold as much media. On a tank smaller than 40 gallons, one filter will suffice. For tanks larger than 40g, you are better served by having 2 smaller filters rather than 1 larger one.
HOB filters do create a huge loss of CO2 though, and should thusly be avoided if you are planning on a planted tank.

Personally, I use HOB on all my tanks. All of them are 55g and smaller. On my 2 55g tanks I use 2 AC 500 and on my 2 20g tanks, I use a single AC 200.

If it were me and I were setting up a 75g tank or smaller, i would use HOB filters. For tanks larger than 75g, I would use a canister in conjunction with a HOB.
If I were heavily planting a tank, I would strictly use canisters only.

I have never used UGF and would not recommend them. The only real maintence you are able to perform with UGF are by reversing the power head and flushing the debris back into the water. This debris is again filtered back through the gravel and so on and so forth. I just don't like this design and would never recommend it. I personally like being able to perform maintenance on my filters and being able to do a thorough cleaning without having to dig up all my gravel in the process.

[daveedka]

Well I'm one of those who wrote off UGF's years ago, but seeing how knowledgable Daveedka is I will reconsider. I didn't neglect mine rather I did not know maintenance was even possible. How do you clean under it? I know you don't take the gravel out or it would defeat the purpose.

In conventional ugf set-up. Once a year (or every six months if needed), I'd run an airline under the plate and vacum out any gunk. In btween gravel vaccuming is an absolute requirement and the primary reason I prefer the RFUG set-ups. In conventional set-up you have to be religious about gravel vaccuming.

With an RFUG the key is to prefilter the powerhead with a sponge or sock. Penguin make a great reverse flow filter kit for their powerheads, some other powerheads can be cutomized pretty easily to be prefiltered. In reverse flow, the prefilter keeps the gunk out from under the gravel in the first place, and the upward flow of the current through the gravel will keep mulm from settling deeply.I seldom if ever vaccum my gravel any more.

As far as plants, There are several people who have raised and continue to raise plants on an RFUG plate. And most report no problems. I am new to plants, so my observations reallly mean very little, but all of my tanks have RFUG's and all of my tanks have plants as well. The only major Drawback I can see is the inability to use sand, and the inability to use substrate fertilization.
Dave

[nativelady76]

I am not very knowlegeable (sp?) about ugf so maybe you can help me what if any is the difference between a regular ugf and a rfug?

[andy marshall]

I Have Used U/g Filters In All My Smaller Tanks And Even Removed Those Due To High Build-up Of Wastes.. I Use A Ehime Pro 11 External In All My Larger Tanks Now!!
And There Great Really!!!!
I Removed All U/g/s From My Smaller Breeding Tanks And Use Internals Fluval Plus Or Equivelent And With Regular Water Changes And Gravel Cleaning Found This Not Only Much Easyer But More Affective!!!!

[andy marshall]

If People Use U/g/s So As Not To Clean And When They Do Suck Up The Muck Underneath... They Havent Tryed A Good External Yet ???
They Keep The Balance Right (to Quote Depeche Mode)!!
Need Little Cleaning..
And Unless Your Use Ing A Small Tank Such As For Breeding ? .....work So Well I Would Never Revert To Ug/s Again..
Internals Work Fine Without Too!!!
Good Tank Maintenance Eg: Water Changes And Gravel Cleaning ( A Weekly Clean Of Internal Filter Sponges In Tank Water .... You Cant Go Wrong!!!

[daveedka]

I am not very knowlegeable (sp?) about ugf so maybe you can help me what if any is the difference between a regular ugf and a rfug?

Conventional UGF uses a powerhead or an airlift tube to pull water cown through the substrate and up through the tubes to the top of the tank. The primary disadvantage is that it pulls mulm into the gravel as well, and you need to dilligently vaccum to ensure it doesn't build-up and plug the plates with gunk which will eventually turn septic.

RFUG reverses the operation by pulling water from the tank into the tubes, and forcing up through the gravel. This keeps the mulm from settling deeply, and by prefiltering the powerhead, you get no dirt under the plates ever, and less dirt in the substrate than any other system going. You have the additional advantage of pulling water with a higher o2 level from the upper portions of the tank and feeding it directly to the bacteria bed in the substrate which makes it even more effecient as a biofilter. You also have additional mechanical filtration in the tank via the intake prefilters, and no chance of ever having an anaerobic pocket in your substrate. Water changes are easier because of no need to vaccume, less mulm build in the substrate and more lands in the filter therefore you have less nitrate production in the tank. It's silent, reasonably inexpensive, and extremely effective. I have never found any other filter that can keep the substrate as clean. I haven't tried cannisters yet but will, and I will do so with my RFUG still in place.


If People Use U/g/s So As Not To Clean And When They Do Suck Up The Muck Underneath... They Havent Tryed A Good External Yet ???
I for one have tried many good externals and use many good externals. I'll still put my RFUG against anything else for ease of maintenance, cost, and bio-filtration capabilities. There are a lot of really good formats available, all with their good and bad points, and all with their fans and folks who don't like them. The only filter that isn't a good filter is one that quits working. Otherwise it's a choice of all the different pro's and con's of the different formats.

Good Tank Maintenance Eg: Water Changes And Gravel Cleaning ( A Weekly Clean Of Internal Filter Sponges In Tank Water .... You Cant Go Wrong!!!

Water changes are a must IMO, rinsing/ or otherwise cleaning media is a must IMO, gravel vaccuming is only a must in a non-RFUG tank. And as far as that goes, most people with enriched substrates, and heavily planted tanks don't do a lot of vaccuming either.
Dave

[Slappy*McFish]

Wet/Dry trickle filters get my vote. With canisters right behind.

[fishpoor]

If you're religious about vaccuuming your gravel. There's nothing wrong and a whole lot right about UGF's. Most of us aren't and that can lead to problems down the road. If you regularly vaccuum your gravel, a reverse flo UGF is great. Probably the best filter out there for the price. Add a HOB of some kind for chemical filtration and you're good to go. In my experience, its a lot more stable than using cannister/Hob's exclusively. If you tlhink about it, They do the same thing, force tank water through media that hopefully filters it. In the case of the UGF, your filter is getting cleaned every time you vac your gravel. With a cannister, you have to shut it off, physically remove it and then replace it when you're done and get it started again. Aside from that, with a properly maintained UGF, you have a couple of POUNDS of media per gallon of tank capacity, no other kind of filter can even come close.

[Luvin'Nemo]

If you tank isn't already set-up, I would highly reccomend an undergravel especially in reverse flow configuration. IMO one filter is never enough, and an RFUG is virtually maintenance free and an extremely effective bio-filter as well as a decent secondary mechanical filter.

If the tank is already set I would look at a second fiter of some other type, to add stability to the sytem.
For more info on RFUG sheck out this article:
http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modul...artid=17&page=1
It will answer almost any question you have.
dave

Thank you. I've been going back & forth over equipment, etc. - I feel the need to research things to death before I make a decision. Anyway, I had ruled out going the UGF route until I'd read some of your other posts actually. I then came here, asked my question & changed my mind again to go without the UGF. Now...I'm thinking a UGF would work well with my tank setup in the reverse flow configuration you talk about.

I've not set up my tank yet - due to my psychological need for intensive research - but I'm getting there. Do you have any particular UGF recommendations that would work well with a 29 gallon tank? Also, do I need a specific brand in order to setup the reverse flow configuration or is this something common to all UGFs (I don't really know anything about them except that my father-in-law also thinks I should use one). Based on the link you provided, I guess any UGF can be used this way, but is this a standard modification? Will I need to buy a separate air pump or can I hook it up to my Penguin 125, as (I think) was suggested in the link? I'm a little fuzzy on how all of this comes together & appreciate your insight.

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for your help!

[daveedka]

I feel the need to research things to death before I make a decision.

This is a really good condition to have in my opinion.
Whatever decesion you do make you can make it a well informed decision. If you have all of the facts, you will be more comfortable with whatever you use.
Dave

[Luvin'Nemo]

This is a really good condition to have in my opinion.
Whatever decesion you do make you can make it a well informed decision. If you have all of the facts, you will be more comfortable with whatever you use.


I guess. Sometimes I get on information overload though. Do you have any UGF brand recommendations that work well for reverse flow? Do I need to purchase a special pump (I'm aware of one that works for the reverse flow configuration and is purpose designed for it) or can I somehow hook it up to the Penguin 125 that I've got? My field is psychology, not an engineering & this stuff totally confuses me...I know many people consider it simple stuff. :) I don't know how I survived statistics in college or grad school. Diagrams & numbers completely confuse me. Pathetic, I know.

Also, do you break your tank down & take it all apart to clean everything? From my research, this is not a good idea. However, I know my father-in-law does this with his tank & UGF setup.

Thanks again for your help!