View Full Version : What exactly is a "show" quality fish?
bettaman
11-30-2002, 2:58 PM
Does it make sense for your average aquarium owner to have show quality fish in his/her tank? I for one admit I couldn't tell the difference between an average looking pet store fish and a show fish. All fish are going to have some type of imperfection right? If anyone has any pics of "show" fish vs. pet store fish please post.
TheMightyQueenPixie
11-30-2002, 3:06 PM
There are different qualifications in different breeds, however most "show quality fish" exemplify the "perfect" specimen ie. colour, finnage, balance, symetry and pattern (when it comes to gups and goldies anyway)
JamisonBWolsh
11-30-2002, 3:06 PM
Heres your answer: Show quality fish have Perfect marks as well as color for that species. No incorrect matking or flaws. Also, There will be genetic problems with this fi if you breed them. Mass produced fish "common fish" have many genetic problems with them and their marking arent nearly as nice...
bettaman: try this. go to www.cichlidscene.com Go to the "shows" link. cichlidscene has pictures of fish from many shows. If you highlight them, many have a description (1st place, did not place, etc.) That will give you an idea of "show quality fish".
The word 'Showfish' is usually referring to someones opinion on how nice the colors are, behaivor and all that good stuff... I mean I consider bettas to be a nice 'show' fish... Basically the ones that are always out in the open, ready to be seen: Discus, Angels, etc...
Theres my two cents... :D :D
Show quality fish are considered prime examples of fish that best meet established standards for that fish. Standards are set by various organizations depending on the type of fish. Can fish be beautiful but deviate from show standards....absolutely!
Show quality fish typically undergo extensive line breeding to enhance and maintain specific characteristics. The downside is the line breeding decreased genetic variability and usually makes fish more prone to diseases and other ailments. The opposite is generally true for fish that are not line bred. (This excludes breeding programs that focus on health, disease resistance and similar characteristics.)
Fish that are show quality can occur without line breeding but their occurrence is much less predictable and less frequent than with line breeding.
Line breeding is a time and labor intensive science (and art) which costs money and is one reason why show quality fish cost more...sometimes much more. For example, show quality goldfish can typically range from $100 to $350 (or more) and show quality koi can run into the thousands of dollars.
Are show quality fish worth it? That depends on the individual aquarist. If you have developed a real interest in a particular species of fish, then moving to show quality examples could be worth it...especially if you can appreciate the characteristics that make the fish show quality.
Serrateeth_2002
11-30-2002, 8:52 PM
Show fishes are usually bred by the lfs themselves,they feed special food,excellent filter and water,farm bred show fishes have their parents selected carefully to get a good batch of fry,they let the fry grow up along with special food and treatment,then select the best in the frys,for show some fishes,it is selected from the wild to prevent crossbreeding problems.Show fishes could also be huge fishes like a full grown red tailed catfish or an arapaima.
I have a show RTBS. He is full grown and beautiful! I picked him when he was still barely an inch long, from a local breeder. The breeder was able to show me the simple, distinguishing characteristics that made my guy a show, as compared to other RTBS. He is much darker and brighter (tail). I wasn't able to see this difference at first, not until he was put next to a tank of other RTBS, the difference is very visible.
With my love for the RTBS, it was easy to spend the extra $$.
He is just beautiful. I don't have a pic of him yet, not at this size anyway, when I do, I'll be sure to post it. Too bad I just can't put him on the scanner... lololol.. :)
bettaman
11-30-2002, 9:31 PM
JeffP -- thanks for the info, that actually makes sense....
Decz -- I like RTBS's too, except I don't think there is any local breeders in my area..hurry and post those pics!
JamisonBWolsh
11-30-2002, 9:43 PM
For those of you who are following the "common fish" debate. The Show quality fish is NOT a common fish, it has genetic dna that makes it better then the rest of that type of fish. A normal goldfish is a common fish. A SHOW QUALITY GOLDFISH is not. I hope poeple like sarretooth and Panzi Gecko can see the difference :)
Serrateeth_2002
11-30-2002, 9:47 PM
show fishes are beautiful common fishes.Show fishes are specially bred to be beautiful,humans made the way they are,rare fishes are hard to find fishes because of nature,you get the picture.At least for most of the show fishes
It's like having a show quality dog or cat. A perfect example of the breed, or species, or whatever the particular type of critter is judged by. Whether you want one or not depends on whether you're willing to pay that much. Does it matter that much to you if the animal is show quality or not?
Personally, with a mutt of a dog and three cat-mutts, and tanks full of cheap LFS fish with irregularities, I think all my animals are perfect!
On the other hand... I have a spectacularly-colored snow corn snake. But only because she was at the pet store for the same price as all the others, lol.
crenicichla
11-30-2002, 9:54 PM
show fish are NOT ALWAYS rare fish!!!!
look at this RED DEVIL for example, it is SHOW QUALITY, and NOT rare!!!!
http://www.predatoryfish.net/clay/diablo3.JPG
http://www.predatoryfish.net/clay/diablo1.JPG
JamisonBWolsh
11-30-2002, 9:57 PM
I dont mean "rare" in nature. I mean "rare" as in hard to get...
There might be millions of this one type of fish swimming in a lake in africa, but if no one imports them, they would be rare to us..not in nature. Thats what I mean by Rare.
Serrateeth_2002
11-30-2002, 10:03 PM
Show fishes don't happen by luck,it is by human bio engineering,they feed a fry bloodworms everyday or high quality pellets everyday till it grows to adulthood,guess what comes out.
bettaman
11-30-2002, 10:11 PM
Thanks for observations guys but I still believe it's impossible to have anything perfect. Close to perfect yes, but perfect.....no. Standards set by humans which are imperfect cannot yield perfection. I know I'm getting carried away here.
crenicichla
11-30-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
I dont mean "rare" in nature. I mean "rare" as in hard to get...
There might be millions of this one type of fish swimming in a lake in africa, but if no one imports them, they would be rare to us..not in nature. Thats what I mean by Rare.
just to let you know, that made no sense.
nobody said anything about show fish being rare in the wild.
slipknottin
11-30-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Serrateeth_2002
Show fishes don't happen by luck,
it could. Definatly wont be reliable or as common as it would be with line-breed show fish, but its a good possibilty that one out of every so many fry will be show quality, despite the parents not being show quality fish themselves.
goldfish freak
11-30-2002, 11:32 PM
Just my two cents. I show quality fish is one that displays beauty and perfection as defined by a certain set of standards. A show quality fish is usually a result of its gentetics and it's enviroment. Those two factors usually work together to produce the finest fish. You may find a "show" quality fish by chance because it has favourable genetics and was living in a good enviroment, or you can purposely breed one through gene munipulation and by providing it with an excellent enviroment.
Mattimeo
11-30-2002, 11:37 PM
numerous people have told me that this salvini here
http://www.geocities.com/warpveil/salfrygallery.html (My 3.5 inch salvini)
is definately show quality. You do not want to see his parents, they were some of the ugliest things I've ever seen salvini wise (i've been through litterally thousands looking for good specimens).
an example of luck.
I had to jump in here. JeffP, Slip and the Mighty Pixie hit the nail on the head. It's just a good looking fish that meets the standards set by the judges. Something as crazy as the fish not coming to the front of the tank (depertment) will deduct points from the overall total of an otherwise perfectly beautiful specimen. Generally the judges will be versed in that particular type fish and judge size and appearance accordingly. A missing scale or tiny nip out of a fin could be enough to knock it out of the winners circle.
Jamison: Your comments about "genetic flaws" if you breed the fish could only possibly happen if you continued to line breed a fish for many generations with it's own progeny. A common Goldfish can be a show quality Goldfish if it is in good shape and has the qualities the judges are looking for. Their is no special "genetic soup" other than the genes that makes that particular fish appealing.
Serrateeth: If you ever see an Arapima Gigas at a fish show...call me. It won't happen. One of the criteria used for judging is against the size...adult size...of the fish. They knock off the majority of points if it is smaller than the average adult. Same will hold tru for a Red Tail Cat. You are using the term "bio-engineering" a little out of context. No one is swapping DNA with a microscope to make the perfect fish. They are giving good condidtions and quality food.
Here's an interesting debate. Inorder to preserve the fins and qualtiy of say ...a gourami...you can scoop it out of your home tank in a big container and never touch the fish...perfect fins. If you enter a big fish like an Umbee...how would you do that and preserve it's mint condidtion. It would be tough to net an Arapima. See my point?
crenicichla: Good looking Citrinellum. Unfortunatel what I have been told is that the judges like the pure bright red colors. Stupid...I know...but I found out the hard way. I entered a fish with similar coloration at an ACA convention. The judge gave me that little tid bit after the show.
Just out of curiosity...how many people here have actually entered a fish in a show? Serateeth? Jamison? Anyone?
Serrateeth_2002
12-01-2002, 9:08 AM
I tried but the entrance cost was high,$80 per fish.i have been to one,fishes are extraodinary,there are alot of fish shows here,I admit i am wrong about the arapaima gigas but not the red tail,what's weird is that it is in a tank in a food court but don't get me wrong it is not for eating,just for show,depends on the definitions of show fishes,normal fishes in huge schools is impressing,show fishes are used to impress customers in case of lfs,in fish shows or competition,it is colour,finnage and like MoJo said personality.This is another of the many routes questions.
By "show fish" I mean one that you can enter in a contest. Rules generally dictate that they will supply a tank up to ten gallons. Beyond that you bring your own. Exactly what size tank would you drag to a show that would be big enough to house a Red Tail Catfish. And since "adult size" if the yardstick used to measure the entry...that would make the size of a suitable Red Tail catfish around 48". Kind of big for a ten gallon tank.
Eighty bucks! What show was this? Most are around $2.50 or $5 an entry. And I didn't say "personality". A fish is only percieved as having such a human trait. I said "deportment". If the fish doesn't hide and comes to the front of the tank while the judge is examining it.
bettaman
12-01-2002, 10:26 AM
So it's rare but I could have a show quality fish in my tank right now! LOL, I don't know if they grade white clouds, panda cories and clown loaches.
Originally posted by bettaman
So it's rare but I could have a show quality fish in my tank right now! LOL, I don't know if they grade white clouds, panda cories and clown loaches.
Yes, you might...and yes they do. It's an interesting hobby. Try and find a show and attend. It will hook you. No pun intended.
Before my RTBS was full grown I entered him in 3 different shows. He placed 2nd once, I was in a cloud for days! lol! He didn't like the travelling though, so I gave that up pretty quickly.
Im not sure I would ever really enter another fish in a show, for me, it is a lot of work, and for the fish, just too much stress. I would have been just devastated had something happened to him.
crenicichla
12-01-2002, 12:45 PM
Just out of curiosity...how many people here have actually entered a fish in a show? Serateeth? Jamison? Anyone?
Hey MO, dont know if you remember but i was going to bring my Marmorata to Atlanta but She hit her eye on the crossbrace in her tank and it was slightly busted open, but i think i still could have beat those Saxatillis :rolleyes:
thats as close as i have been to entering anything into a show but next aca im going to enter my atabapo's if there not sold, the red on them is becoming extremely bright (the little pikes i got from clay)
-Drew ;)
oh yeah, thats clay's devil.
Drew...buddy. Didn't know it was you. I remember now. Barlow was the one who told me about the coloration on the Citrinellum. I entered one in Jersey. Same Piebald markings.
JamisonBWolsh
12-01-2002, 3:15 PM
I dont do fish shows. Why? not my thing.
1.) dont want to spend the entrance fee's
2.) dont want to give my fish added stress.
3.) the fish I own are not in any competitions I dont think?
Just not interested. Now if there is an award for OVERALL Tank Look... I would add my tanks. However RTR's Tanks will always beat mine in the near future anyway....
Anton Wernher
12-01-2002, 4:47 PM
JamisonBWolsh you should check out a couple of shows, you might change your mind.
1) I'm sure the couple of dollars isn't going break the bank
2) If done properly and with care the fish will be a.ok
3) If its a fish then there is a venue to show it
There are also contests for tanks... these are generally done by photographs for obvious reasons.
crenicichla
12-01-2002, 4:51 PM
at aca there was 4 tanks i believe (show tanks) 1 of them had some shell dwelling fish they set the tanks up the day before the judging was to commence (10 gallons with some 20gallons available) they were beautiful i think next ACA i might setup a show tank to see if i win anything, they gave away awards to the winners
and Mo you better get taking some pics man!! gotta win some awards next aca!!!!!
Jamison...what Anton said is right on. As for stressing your fish? Not gonna happen if you do it right. Nobody is competing with what you have? What is it you have? The only reason I asked is becasue you were handing out info on showing fish like you had some experience. BTW...the last entry fee I paid was two bucks...and I won twenty. It pays to play if you got the goods to show.
Mattimeo
12-01-2002, 7:50 PM
Mo... think I shoudl enter one of my sals when they get bigger?? Or do you think some hemichromis frempongi in full breeding garb would look better to the judges?
Just don't add the hemichromis in a new world cichlid show ;)
seriously though...mo, would you mind if we made a thread dedicated to member submitted pics. So I guess, say matt would post a pic of his salvini and the judge (you) would comment on if you believe the fish is capable of taking a position at a show.
Would that be a possibility?
slipknottin
12-01-2002, 7:55 PM
thats a cool idea, maybe a members fish of the month or something.
:D
JamisonBWolsh
12-01-2002, 7:56 PM
Vfrex,
That is a GREAT I dea.. I second the idea. A forum to post pics of your tanks and fish and be able to make comments on them... excellent!
Tom Griffin
12-02-2002, 11:28 PM
Speaking from a judge's point of view.....
When i judge a fish...each fish first is judgd on its merits.
I look for size...it is to or near standards set for that fish? If not, it's not likely to get further considertion unless there arent othr quality entries that meet that criteria.
Finnage....is the fish in good condition...and finnage tells a lot. I look for clen lines, but not trimmed. Too many exhibitors trim finnage to meet what they think is expectation. You can tell, and it will weigh against the fish. Are the fins held erect and is the fish alert? Tells me much about the health and vigor of the fish.
Displaced scales. I have eliminated many an otherwise wonderful fish simply because of handling. It is missing scales, an that takes away from the actual appearance. The judging I do is on that fish that day...not how it MIGHT look. Harsh to someone who thought they had it in the bag...but how a fish is hanled says much.
Color...does the fish meet what I classify...what standards classify...as proper color? I expect a minimal amount of fading in a fish...this isnt the home tank and its a bare tank to boot. If the fish absolutely glows with color, chances ar its been hormonally enhanced...good ole testosterone...and if it comes down to two fish and one seems too good to be true...likely it is.
Deportment...does the fish respond well to stimulus...or does it hide behind the sponge filter and require prodding to turn for exazmination? Chances are the very reason it is hiding will also detract from its color and how it holds its fins...if it hides likely it wont place.
There are other factors that will determin which fish wins and which one doesnt. Consistancy is a key...very often its the shower, not the fish, that makes a difference. In our area a gentleman by the name of Ron Georgionne shows a lot of very nice cichlids, both new world and old. Ron knows how to hndle his fish...and he wins a lot of classes and usually is in the running for if not winning best in show. Why...he does it right. As often as not I find myself looking for reasons why NOT to give Ronnie the ribbons...and you know its his fish even though its a blind show...it shows in the fish.
so what defines a show quality fish...not a thing. Anyone can sell you a fish that they proudly call show quality. Will it win a show...who knows. But it can be entered...any fish can be entered...thus..by definition...any fish is potentially show quality....
its al semntics...designed to sell fish...and it works.
a quality show fish is different mtter...and its not from some strenuous breeding program...its from the care that a fish is given. The best bred fish shows for nothing if its not cared for. Thats what I look for when I judge.
JamisonBWolsh
12-02-2002, 11:33 PM
I got an Idea. Since you are a judge. Can I enter in one of my fish and "do you a favor"..Is that one way to win?
Like the russian and the american ice skating scandel....
:D :D :D
A Political joke..
Tom Griffin
12-02-2002, 11:36 PM
cant say s anyone ever offered me a bribe<G>
cant say as i expect it will ever happen.
people who show fish are pretty serious hobbyists.
they tend to do it without the intrigue...closest to shady is fin trimming and hormones...
but judging is for the most part closed...so we are usually left alone...