cycling???

[horner420]

O.k. heres the story...I have a 30 gal tank up for about 4 weeks. When I first started I was told to cycle with fish, so I went to the lfs and pick up the essentials to start....first off i had only the advice of my father who had a tank running about 7 years ago and has since given it up....anyway picked up salt,live sand and a few base rocks(nothing Live). Already had the tank the skilter and 1 powerhead(ajustable flow). Now the bag of sand said INSTANT CYCLING. Did not really now about cycling till I starting looking it up(on the Net)after i had put the 4 damsels in. My parameters were fine so I THOUGHT the bag of sand had cycle the tank(very funny).Well after thinking my tank was cycled I purchased more fish....2 tomato clown, 2 neon gobys,and 1 striped dotty backplus a small cleang crew....well 1 damsel has died 2 pep shrimps, all of my 20some snails and now my clown are looking poor..note my damsel died firstfrom bullying from the other damsels. Anyway the real cycle started as soon as i was expecting the other fish in the mail(fedx). Now my parameters are through the roof(amm And NItrite) and have been like that for almost a week and a half...have used stress zzyme and biozyme to try to kick the cycle in the a@@. Dunno what to do. It seems never ending. Can i use ammo lock to try to save some fish.Bottle says it still bio filters the amm. Please help me..............reminder im very new at this and the advice I was taking was a joke.........thanks Chris H.

[OrionGirl]

Yes, you can use ammo-loack, but I would strongly advise you to do water changes as well. Or--better--see if you can return the fish and cycle fishlessly. Bio-Spira is the only product I'm aware that is effective--the others introduce bacteria that will not surive in water. Adding some cured live rock will introduce the beneficial bacteria as well.

[horner420]

ordered fish online..can't really take back......going to That Fish Place today to take a look at what they have for rock..This store has over 800 sw tanks and 8 marine biologists so hopefully i can get some other help too...but thanks for the ammo lock advice....what % of water should I change out?
Btw store is over an hour away

[Max]

I'd change as much as was possible. Just make sure that the new water has the same ph/kh and salinity as the old and your critters will thank you for it. You might also consider moving everything to a smaller bare bottomed container and doing a 100% water change every day. Then run a fishless cycle on the main tank. Also from your live stock list your tank is going to be way over stocked when every thing grows up. The tomato clowns are going to get pretty big 4 inches plus most of the time. Tomato clowns are one of the most aggressive clowns out there to. They really don't like other fish getting in their territory either and in that tank it will probably all be theirs. I wouldn't get them an anemone either it will just make the worse.
Damsels are also usually pretty aggressive and they don't get along very well with clowns either usually. They are closely related and it causes real territorial issues. Normally the damsels get the better of the clowns but, with tomatoes my money is on the clowns. I don't think that would work in a 500 gallon. There is a peacefull species of damsel but, they usually aren't sold to cycle a tank. I'm still not sure the clown would be peacefull with them though.
I'm not 100% sure about your dotty back but, most of them are about as aggressive as the clown . There is only 1 exception that I know of and it's common name in my part of the country is the orchid dotty back. They are just as aggressive as the clowns and fast to.
The gobies aren't aggressive at all and don't get too big either. They may not be able to stand up to your other fish and they won't live very long either.
hth
Chris

[horner420]

Thanx max....right now i have no other tank to put the fish in....as for the agression(as of now)everyone seems to be fine. The damsels seem to be more intrested in themselves(going after each other). The clowns seem to have only slightly agressive behavior towards the damsels and none towards anything else...dunno if this will change in the future.thats if they survive :(
ok..well thanks...and can i use a buffer in the new water for ph?? salinity is not a prob.

[OrionGirl]

Yes, you should buffer to get it to the same pH. Don't worry about percentages--worry about keeping ammonia as low as possible.

[horner420]

will doing such a water change prolong the cycle? I did a 20% yesterday and it did pretty much nothing.....and also store i went to did not have the biospira :mad: ....ok thanks for all your help....so i'll do water changes till i'm able to notice it on my test kit?? because of right now its too high to read(goes up to 8ppm).
Also added a couple peices of live rock...store would not say it was cured for some reason but was in their tank for two weeks and did not smell bad...

[OrionGirl]

Water changes won't extend the cycle time. The bacteria continue to increase in size constantly--they won't notice if you keep the ammonia levels lower to prevent injury to the fish. Yes, keep doing water changes--I'd start with 50% at least.

The rock should be fine, and will help.

[cthopper]

Add Marine Bio-Spira if possible. It cut my cycle down to about 24-36 hours. Water changes won't increase the time, only decrease it. It is my understanding that the bacteria will live in your sand and on your rock so the water changes end up just getting rid of excess ammonia and nitrites. Good luck!

[skippy2]

"Solution to pollution is dilution." "Patience is the most important thing to learn in this hobby." :)

[horner420]

thank you all very much..I was avoiding the water changes 'cause of other advice but now i know better...btw can't find the biospira at any of the lfs's or lps.... :sad ....oh well, i'll have to wait it out with the water changes. And again thanks soooo much. this really is a big weight off my shoulders...for now :) I will update as soon as posable........THANK YOU :bowing:

[TKOS]

The more live rock you can add the better. It will also potentially help to lessen aggression by blocking line of sight and creating hiding spots for more timid fish.

[Gealcath]

Water changes wont effect bacteria growth, because if you have high ammonia to begain with, changing water wont solve the problem of high ammonia, but it helps keep fish alive.

[horner420]

so it will till take as much time as it was going to? was wondering 'cause my levels are still of the chart but my fish have made a big turn around(they are finally eating and swimming around).Still seem very stressed, but at least they are alive.

Did a 60% change. Took a while but was well worth it. :)

[Max]

You can also go to home depot or where ever and get a plastic tub. But in retrospect it won't help you too much you'll just have to change twice as much water.

[horner420]

alright..i have one more question...how often should i do these water changes during the cycling???

[OrionGirl]

As often as needed to prevent the ammonia levels from exceeding .5 ppm. Daily, twice daily, etc.

[horner420]

50% each time?

[OrionGirl]

You shouldn't need to do 50% each time. It will depend on the ammonia level. for example, if the ammonia is at 1 ppm, then yes, a 50% change will reduce that by half. If it's only .75 ppm, then 30% will drop it down to ~.5 ppm

[horner420]

i'm kinda of confused 'cause i did a 60% change out and the level has not dropped to readable level. how high can the amm get?

side question....forgot to mention i also have 2 bumble bee snails...how did they survive and the 20 some asthrea snails did not. would or could this have been a problem of the retailer i bought them from?

[OrionGirl]

It can get really, really high. Basically, ammonia will continue to rise if there is a source (fish or decaying matter) until the bacteria can start consuming. Until the bacteria population reaches a certain size, ammonia just keeps rising, then suddenly starts dropping. Do you have any nitrites yet?

Different animals have different tolerances for wastes. Many detrivore snails can put up with pretty high levels of ammonia, but keel over if exposed to a sudden change in pH.

[horner420]

yes...nitites are also very high...was expecting the cycle to end at least 4 days age when the nitrites maxed out also..my nitrats started to rise before i did the water change..they were the only observable decrease that happened.


thanks for the snail advice.. :)

[Max]

Did you get uncured l.r. ? If so I would suspect either a large rock boring sponge or clam etc. Take a close look at your rocks and if one seems to be exuding large amounts of slime and smells like the worse thing known to man it may be the culprit. If that's the case take it out and cure in a bucket or what ever and it might help your nitrate issue.

[horner420]

no slime or stink....had gotten the lr the after i noticed the nitrates....but it got me thinking...i might be an idiot. I'm using the rock my father was using in his tank from several years back which I had soked for two days but it still had some dried algea on...could this be my cycling problem. to much of this dried algea....eithr way i'm taking out piece by piece and and cleaning again. first time nothing really came off but now it seems to just fall off.
Getting back to the nitrates, could this be caused by the biological filter i'm using(3 stage)in my skilter. Got it for cycling and the carbon really clears the water up. was going to slowly take out stage by stage once the tank cycled


also did another 60% water change tonight and my amm went down to a whopping 6ppm(not .6) so i am planning on doing 2 tomorrow.the fish are alot more active and actually eating :dance ..anyway, tell me what y'all think.....

oh, and just for the record i was hoping the snails i had would of eaten this dried algea...but they died

[OrionGirl]

Yes, the old rock likely contained a lot of organic matter that is now decaying. Scrubbing it clean will help.

Make sure to feed very lightly--while it's good that they are eating, it's also producing additional ammonia.

[horner420]

also can't seem to get my ph balanced..is this part of cycling? been using a buffer. was good last night....it has drooped agian this morning...don't want to over do it with the buffer......any other way to keep this steady. and is their a better way to dissolve this stuff or is it supposed to be chunky..seems like no matter what i do it stays partialy clumpy...Also the buffer i have says it does not go well with high amm..should this be a concern or should I keep using this???

[OrionGirl]

The problem is that the biological processes that convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate use up the buffers in the water. It's tough to stabilize in a cycling tank, but with fish in there, worth the effort. pH swings are very tough on SW fish--add that into the stress from the ammonia levels, and the fish are in a rough spot.

[horner420]

okay..thanks

[Max]

It would be alot of work but, you could take the rock out and scrub it with a tooth brush etc. I'd still wonder if there isn't some large critter rotting away in there . Is there any way at all you could get your fish boarded somewhere until this is over . that would work but, might not be possible. Keep us posted and good luck.
Chris

[horner420]

wish there was a place,but there's not....i already took out every piece of base rock that was used before and took a tooth brush to them. Took just about all day. Concerning the live rock, i've pulled them out too to inspect...nothing I can see or smell...As for the amm it seems to be going down. Don't know if it's becase of the water changes, but i checked this morning after the change was at about 4ppm, now it looks to be about 1-2ppm. Thing is my nitrites are still high so i'm hoping the cleaning of the rock(with me stirring things up abit before the change out)has reduce the amm enough for the nitites to start a good rate of consumtion....dunno how this stuff works exactly just yet but that's my guess. Gonna wait till tomorrow to test again and probably change the water again...sorry for being long winded, just whant y'all to hear everything for a good evaluation on this.

thanks

[OrionGirl]

The nitrites levels aren't a big concern. Nitrites are not toxic in saltwater, while ammonia is highly toxic. So, looks like the tank is starting to stabilize--that's good! :) Once the ammonia starts dropping, it tends to go quickly.

[horner420]

thanks to you,oriongirl and max, otherwise i think i would of lost my fish. y'all were very helpful.this forum LIVE ROCKS and so do YOU!!!! :D :D :D :dance

[horner420]

Justed noticed clearish white tentacles coming out of my one live rock...any ideas?

[Gealcath]

Nitrite is virtually non-toxic in SW, along with Nitrate (its not a real big concern with FOWLR, fagile inverts are more vulnurable to Nirite and Nitrate as opposed to fish and more hardy inverts), but the high PH makes Ammonia alot more toxic then a neutral or acidic PH as seen in FW. So any detectable ammonia is bad :)

[kcmo lawman]

Justed noticed clearish white tentacles coming out of my one live rock...any ideas?


I had the same thing from my live rock. Turned out to be spaghetti worms which I was told are a good thing to have in your tank as the feed on the waste that is in there. Do a search for spaghetti worms and see if you can find a pic of one that looks like what is in your tank.
Let us know what you find out,

Bradd

[horner420]

could be them not to sure though....pics i've seen have many tentacles...mine has two that i've seen...but it does look like that's what it is...

btw tank still has high amm....just seems not to what to complete...like it to finish soon, need some more snails for algea clean up....oh well hopefully it comes soon :) patience seems to be the key with sw :rolleyes:

[BigBP]

I have been following this thread as I have had a very similar problem cycling my 75 gal tank. I followed my LFS advice on cycling it and think I may have payed the price for it. I knew they were wrong, but they insisted I do it their way for it to work. Anyway, here is the story. I put six damsels in for the cycling process. I used lace rock and play sand for the current decor and substrate. The only live rock availble to me is at minimum $50+ a rock. So back to the story. They said to put the damsels in and just let it go. Do not do any water changes until you show zero for your Ammonia and Nitrite. Then do your water change. I knew right away that was wrong, but I figured, they are the experts, I will do what they say. Well, four weeks later, I have no damsels (all dead by week two) and two I could not find after their death. I think this is where my biggest problem started. My ammonia was up to 5ppm and my nitrite and nitrate were extremely high as well. These levels remained the same for two weeks now. The ammonia would not drop whatsoever. I moved all my rock to see if I could find the fish that died, but never could find them. So I have no dead fish in my tank, as they must have decomposed completely already. I decided to try what was said in this thread. I hope I didn't do wrong again, but I tried a 50% water change. That seemed to have worked partially. I was still just below 5ppm. So I got really mad and decided I would do an almost 100% water change. Basically down to the sand. This was last night. Put the new water in and decided to check the ammonia level right away just to see what it said with the new water. I am finally down to 3ppm now. How many water changes do I need to do before I get this ammonia under control? I have brown algae all over my tank, rocks, and sand. After my water change last night, the algae on my glass turned green.
Please help me if you can. Oh, I almost forgot to add that I bought some of that live sand in a bag around week two to see if that would help bring the ammonia down. It wasn't much, but I figured I would try something. Thanks for your time.

[horner420]

well Big, it's not fun getting the wrong instructions is it..i was ready to KIll my father after what i had learned here, but what they say is true. I did about 5 days of 50% water changes and it was still pretty high, but it kept my fish alive and now it has seemed to have done exactly what they said(it has sped up the cycling). I am now at .25 amm and the rest is sure to follow. Lot's of pulling my hair out but it worked...i too have the brown algea(diatoms) so as soons as it finishes i'm getting a wrecking crew for that problem...it's tough but hang in there....

[OrionGirl]

Since you no longer have any fish in the tank, let it continue to cycle as is--the bacteria will develop to consume the ammonia, and the rest will go down as well. Just be patient-it will happen.