Ideal conditions for retaining black

[Shay]

I saw some incredible Moors last night and am considering putting about three in a 6' 120g tank. I have kept these fish before, but have learned only recently that I was cooking the color off of them with the high temps in my house.

I'v got a tube run for automatic overflow, so I can insert R/O in line if necessary. I've also got some Wal Mart clay to stir in with the substrate. I'm going to construct a home made chiller with medical ice packs and a small cooler.

Where, ideally, should my temp, hardness, and ph be for maximum black color retention? Will the copper tubing used for the overflow cause any problems?

Thank you,
-Shay

[pinballqueen]

Wow, interesting topic...

How warm IS your house anyhow? I've never seen any goldfish lose their color due to anything short of 80's+ temps...

Sorry, I don't know much about this, since I have to worry about my tanks getting too cold, even for goldies at this time of year... However, I think a chiller setup would be a good idea if you have the opposite problem I have...

I'm not sure I would use copper tubing on the off chance of corrosion or leaching, but I'm probably not the one to tell you yes or no, since I've never done it before...

[TJcanada]

I find this interesting as well......Shay where are you located?

I have never had the experience of seeing GF of any variety loose it's colour because of exposure to warm water, or as you state cook it off.... How is it that you feel this is what happened?

Moor - Also known as the Black Moor, Telescope Moor, Veiltailed or Broadtail Moor

Origin: China

General Size Range: 4 to 8 inches

General Temperature Range: 55 *F to 80 *F

Description

There are two basic variations of the Moor, the Kuro Demekin which is the original "Black Moor", and the Veiltailed Moor. The Kuro Demekin is a solid black version of the Demekin, or Telescope-Eyed Goldfish, while the Veiltailed Moor was created by crossing the Kuro Demekin and the Veiltailed Goldfish.

The body of the Kuro Demekin is very similar to the body of the Ryukin or Fantail, egg-shaped with a highly arched curve to the back. The body of the Veiltailed Moor closely resembles that of the Veiltail with an almond shape and slightly downturned Caudal Peduncle (tail base). All fins, of both types, are paired except for the Dorsal (top) which is set on the highest part of the fishes back and may be either short to moderate in length (as in the Demekin) or long and flowing (as in the Veiltailed variety). The doubled Caudal (tail) fin has a straight top edge and may also be relatively short to moderate in length (Demekin) or long and flowing with a square cut edge (as in the Veiltail).

Both varieties of the Moor have metallic scales and a jet black velvety coloring. The only color form of the Moor is black.

Development:

The original Moor is an all black version of the Telescope Eyed Goldfish, or Demekin, which originally occurred as a natural mutation. The Veiltailed form of the Moor was created by crossing the Veltailed Goldfish and the Black Demekin.

Notes On Keeping:

The Moor can be sensitive to prolonged low temperatures, is prone to injury of the telescoped eyes as well as injury and disease of the finnage, and is very susceptible to Swim Bladder Disorders. Pond keeping is only advisable in warmer months, though aquarium keeping may be more suitable.
Info from: Animalsoup.net (http://animalsoup.net/aquaria/index.html)

Black moor & telescope goldfish(Carassius auratus)

Water quality: neutral to alkaline pH, moderate to very hard water
Temperature: 10 to 30°C (ideally 15°C to 24°C)

Origin: Asia (other fish from Asia)

Comments: Telescope goldfish have distinctive "bulging" eyes, but are otherwise similar to fantails. Black moors (above) are a telescope goldfish with a jet black body. These black fish always have telescopic eyes, but telescopic eyes can also occur in fish of other colours (eg, right). Telescopes have quite poor eyesight and may have trouble finding food, so it is best not to mix them with faster moving varieties. Except in very cold climates, they can tolerate outside temperatures and so be kept in ponds. (other pond fish). However, they are much slower swimmers than comets, so may be susceptible to predation by birds or cats where these are present.

Good specimens should have a body shape like that of the fantail, well matched telescopic eyes, and well developed finnage. The tail and anal fins should be double and separate all the way to the body. Ideally, the paired fins should be well-matched and free of any kinks.
Info here:Adelaide Aquariums (http://adelaideaquariums.com.au/faqs/freshwater/fish/goldfish/telescopes.html)

You can also check out Bristol Aquarist (http://www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/goldfish/goldfish.htm) for even more info on Moors and other GF varieties.

Moors tend to thrive in warmer water....mid to high 70's....during summer months I've seen them pretty peppy even as high as 84*F as long as there is good O2 saturation in the water(and ofcourse proper care/maintenance).

[pinballqueen]

I have had experience with gold/white spotted calico varieties having their colors bleed together and fade in warmer water, but even then, the black stays put... Which leaves you with a koi that WAS orange and white and black, but now is lighter orange countershaded with black spots... wierd...

I currently have an oranda that was "blonde" in the store and deepened to a rich gold when it got into the coldwater tank at my house... my lfs doesn't keep different temperatures on his tanks, they're all room temp (which is between 78-80 year round...).

[TJcanada]

PBQ...... there are certain water conditions that will cause a 'carp' to loose/fade colour - but I don't believe water temperature has anything to do with it - unless of course the fish is being frozen and/or boiled - but let's not explore that avenue. Carbonate Hardiness(KH) and pH levels will contribute to a fishes skin colour...usually red..either fading/dulling it or intensifying it.

It was just your luck, imo, that your oranda coloured up when brought home...means you've got good water parameters for keeping carp;) - it's not unusal for fish at the dealer to be less colourful..they are usually over crowded and stressed.

Just my thoughts.........

[Darkangel]

Colour can also be affected by foods. I know what foods affect orange and red though I am not sure about black. One thing I can tell you about goldfish colours is that to get them to their fullest potential the fish need to be outdoors in the sun for part of the year. My 3 Ryukins never look as good indoors as they do outdoors. Black is one of the colours that is severly affected by sun.

[pinballqueen]

<whine> but I LIKED it as a blonde!<end whine>

Yeah, I have interesting water all right. It keeps carp and cats okay, but where it REALLY stands out is for cichlids...it's 7.8 ph straight from the tap...

Oh, I am almost certain it was temperature that caused the fadeout on my koi... when my heater broke on my tank, the fish returned to their normal "spots" within a week... same water, same food, same tank, same location...

[TJcanada]

Interesting..this could turn into a very good thread......

Da is right on about natural sunlight....it's amazing the transformation carp (gf/koi) go through when kept outdoors....we use a growlight in the winter for those we keep inside, it helps but not the same.
Black is one of the colours that is severly affected by sun - would you expand/clarify on this Da? I know that there is a "rumor" that high carbonates effect black colouring - in a sense fading it out to nothing(speaking koi here, doesn't quite effect gf as dramaticaly), but sunlight?

[Shay]

I live in Houston. The temp in my house during the summer stays about 78 to 80. My goldfish have always been super fast growers, but colorless after just a few months.

I'm going to try everything I can to keep these fish healthy and black. I've got ShoGold and Bentonite clay, and will have a homemade chiller and a uv light after reading this thread.

I've got an automatic overflow sysem set up too keep everthing nice and constant. My only problem now is how to lower the Kh just a bit without lowering my 7.8 ph too much. I am going to experiment with running my Carbo Plus on the lowest setting to see if I can achieve a good balance that way.

-Shay

[Darkangel]

Shay, I am confused about some things in your post. What are ShoGold and Bentonite clay, and what do they have to do with keeping fish healthy? Why are you going to use a UV light? They are used to kill bacteria and algae. A homemade chiller is doable, but I am not sure about how you plan to do it. Most DIY chillers involve the use of a small bar type fridge. I've got an automatic overflow sysem set up too keep everthing nice and constant. Automatic overflows are used either in tanks with sumps and wet dry filters or automatic water change systems. R/O units are not connected to an aquarium in any way. They are used to microscopicaly filter tap water to remove evrything from it. I would not use copper in any of your plumbing as eventually enough will disolve into the tank water to harm the fish. It seems to me like you are making this way more complicated then it needs to be. A 120 gallon tank with 3 GF in it does not require all this stuff you are talking about. IMO you need nothing more then a good filter set up, like a combination of HOB's and canisters. Leave the clay and all that other stuff out. Just use gravel for your substrate. I even honestly question the need for the chiller but hey thats just my opinion. That water will likely be just fine for your GF as they are very adaptable. Feed a good varied diet including lots of fresh veggies like peas and spinach and such. Mix in some high quality flake or pellet and the occasional frozen treat like mosquito larvae or mysis shrimp. From there simple weekly water changes of 30 to 50 percent will be all that is needed. I doubt anything else will affect the fishs colour like the above mentioned except natural sunlight.

TJ what I was saying is you never see blacks like you do in fish kept outdoors. I have read although I can not recall exactly where that sunlight directly affects black pigments. It could also have something to do with the food a fish outdoors would eat. My above noted recomendations will approximate that quantity fairly closely. As you know I am no expert but I do have experience and reading to go on here. My 3 Ryukins have faded a lot in the 5 monthes they have been indoors and I am really looking forward to getting them back outside. I bet they want to get back out there too.

[Shay]

ShoGold is a popular premium quality goldfish food.

Bentonite clay is a clay used mostly for lining ponds which contains nutrients to improve fish health. I have heard rumors that this clay helps goldfish to reatin their color, so I will mix in some with my substrate, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I have made the overflow for automatic, slow water changes. The R/O I mentioned, although I'm sure would do more harm than good for these fish, was mentioned as an option because I could install it easily in my fresh water input line.

By UV light, I did not mean a UV sterilizer, but a UV emitting plant light designed to mimic natural sun light. I cannot put my goldfish outside because herons would eat them. Besides, I want to enjoy them inside.

My first chiller will be an experiment with just an igloo cooler and some medical ice packs. These packs will stay cold for 48 hours, so changing them out daily will maintain a fairly constant temperature. I've got a small wine cooler laying around, so creating a better chiller is also an option.

I have already began building a pvc, undergravel water movement system as well. I know that most of this is not necessary, but part of the fun in this hobby for me is attempting to create an ideal environment for my fish. I have kept mostly biotopes in the past, and have enjoyed seeing the reactions of people who never realized how beautiful a fish like bleeding heart tetras can be when given the proper environment in which to live.

My only problem now will be designing an attractive decor for my fish. As I said, my tanks in the past have been biotopes, usually with largish tanks and very small fish. Since fancy goldfish are in a sense man made, I want to put them in a man made environment. I am considering constructing a loose structure of homemade foam bricks.

-Shay

[Randy]

I also find that most of the fun in this hobby is trying to recreate a ideal environment for my fish.

[avoxo]

Plain and simple its lack sunlight that will affect color change not water tempature. Goldfish that are kept outdoors have much more pigment than ones indoors If there are sudden changes in tempature then yes it will affect but not to the point of total loss of black. Think of it as a tan, there is no way better to explain it.

[TJcanada]

Da, thanks for the clarifcation...you're statement just puzzled me - and by the way I totally agree. :D

avoxo - it's not quite that "plain and simple" - just a contributing factor, natural light is best but today it can be simulated pretty well indoors. WaterQ has alot to do with how fish look aswell.... probably part of the reason Shay is thinking about using Bentonite Clay - trace minerals.

Shogold is a very good food from what I understand. It's supposedly well balanced for overall fish health, high in protien - but I don't think I would feed it exclusively, variety in the diet is a "good thing" - I agree with Da.

Shay...I don't believe you need a chiller, also agreeing with Da. Temps of 80*F aren't to much of a concern as far as Moor's go. If you can keep the O2 saturation up, feed small amounts through the day, maintain a good maintenance schedul then there shouldn't be a problem during the heat of your summer months. I would suggest that if you experience lower temps in the fall/winter/spring, let the tank experience those changes - like a seasonal cycle - change your feeding schedual and foods to accomodate these lower temps. This imo will only benefit the fish - they may be "man made" but are still carp - and somethings just don't change as far as genetics go.
I've got an automatic overflow sysem set up too keep everthing nice and constant. My only problem now is how to lower the Kh just a bit without lowering my 7.8 ph too much. I am going to experiment with running my Carbo Plus on the lowest setting to see if I can achieve a good balance that way. What is the KH of your source water....? IMO anything from 100ppm to 300ppm is fine - we keep ours around 150 - 200ppm.
I think what you're trying to accomplish is very good....and it's great that you find it fun. Everyone has a different opinion on how to keep goldfish....with most of us that stems from experience and research. We all find what works for ourselves and our fish. Good Luck and I hope you post back to let us know how it all goes:)

[Shay]

Thanks for all of the input guys.

I was rereading this thread and realized that I had never posted a response to why I believe that the high temperatures contributed to my fish's losing color.

I might be wrong about this, but my assumption is based on rumors I have heard which have been verified by my own experience. I have been warned by others to *never* use a heater with black fish, and have seen my black fish lose color when no other variable besides temperature could have possibly been different from the lfs conditions.

I watched one red and black four inch telescope at the lfs for three weeks before deciding to buy it. In that time, the fish lost no color. Within a week of having the fish home, I had noticed some color loss. I assumed that diet or water perameters were the problem, did lots of research on goldfish feeding and conditions, and ended up with a very large, very healthy, almost completely orange fish.

This is not the only fish with which I have experienced this, nor is it the only time I have heard warnings about temperature and black goldfish.

I'm don't remember my Kh because I've been doing SA for the past few years and skipping the tap water all together. I'm going to try the Carbo Plus before I add any fish just to see if it doesn't provide an east way to slightly lower the Kh without over affecting the ph.

-Shay

[val]

and keep us updated, I'd be interested to hear how it goes.

When I started keeping GF, my LFS owner was the source of much of my wisdom, and she was usually right-on. One of the things she told me was that moors should at least be kept in pairs and that they needed the light (I was keepiong plastic plants in my tanks at the time, so the light was only on at nights when we'd have company and when I was watching TV...). I have three in a 29g and they've stayed as black as when I bought them, but then, I just pulled them out of the $5 tank at another LFS, so it's not like they were the most amazing of specimens.

I've never done the pond thing (if I tried to put in a pond before I got my flowerbeds in order, my wife would kill me...). But it seems to me that one reason why ponds work well for all fishes (I've seen paradise fish, catfish and cichlids in ponds) is that they're far more variable than our controlled environments indoors. The light is different: the sun moves across the sky, and the amount of daylight is different. There are different, seasonal foods available, the water temp changes. There's rainfall, there's drought.

Hard to achieve that in a tank, but I would think that you can keep your colors darkest by keeping your fish in mating condition. Breed the fish. Simultaneously with lowering the water temps, add your softer, RO water and feed a live/frozen diet.

I would also think about keeping a couple more fish than three. GF are social fish. I would think they'd do better with a couple more tankmates. You would need to start out with 4-6 fish to get a couple of breeding pairs anyway, unless your seller has already sexed them...

Oh, and by the way Avoxo, welcome to Aquaria Central, home of the blackest GF keepers on the Internet:)

Val

[avoxo]

:D Hello, first and most important TJ you are correct in what you said about the water Q, but if everything is where it should be (ph, kh, temp, variety of foods) in most cases fish will lose the color black if kept inside out of the sun "plain and simple" :D . I have kept goldfish on and off for over 20 years and have had my bouts with the loss of color and lost.

Shay trying to mess with the kh will only bring problems. From your post it sounds like your kh is fine. Keep in mind that most if not all goldfish are breed in outdoor ponds, fed with live or fresh foods and the full affect of the sun on them. Genetics can affect the color change. An attempt to simulate a full sun spectrum in a tank can be achieved but not the same as the good ole sun (like Val said). I would also like to see how you make out. Please keep us updated.

Val thanks for the welcome to the blackest GF keepers on the net.

Avoxo

[TJcanada]

Avoxo - :D I think I'm gonna really like you...... LOL Welcome to AC

[mickdpt]

I have had Black moor fish for over 15 years now. Each one has lived for approx nine years and I have looked after them with great care and expense. All four of them slowly changed from black to orange/gold in a matter of months after putting them in the tank. To be honest, I thought that was just normal, but from what I am reading, it is unusual. The one I have at present is around six years old, but is changing colour again, from orange/gold to silver. It just started happening yesterday but is extremely rapid. Any thoughts?