View Full Version : Aggressive Dwarf Gourami?
I have had to do several returns on albino cory cats lately, and have had 1 platy die and 1 platy looks very bad, and 1 male guppy is acting odd. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 20 ppm nitrates and its a 10 gallon, maybe a bit overstocked, with 3 cory cats, 2 oto's, a DG 3 guppies and now 2 platys (Started out with being given the platys and guppies and went from there with what i wanted.) The live bearers are still fairly small and the cory cats arent very large either.
When I was talking to the lady at petsmart-only person there who ever seemed to know what she was talking about-she thought the gourami might be my problem. Any suggestion? He seems fascinated by the algae wafers I drop in for my cory cats and jumps at them when they try to eat it! I havent noticed him messing with the other fish mch other than the remaining platy who hides in my plant all the time, and the DG will go and stare him down.
Kind of hoping for an answer soon I am on a very short fuse for putting this fella in a bowl in the freezer
pisces22
03-13-2005, 8:53 PM
Dwarf Gouramis are known to be aggressive-but usually only to other gouramis. However, if the guppies are males with fancy fins, the gourami might consider them a threat. I have male gouramis and platys together and they get along perfectly, bu tim not sure about cories. If i were you I would check for symptoms of a disease- which might be the cause of ur fishes sickness/death.
Is your tank cycled? How does the platy look bad? Oh and gouramis need vegetation too- try feeding him spirulina flakes and he may leave your corys food alone
One guppy just got stuck against my filter intake tube. The platy looks very small, skittish, keeps all of his fins tucked in and lays on the gravel not moving much at all
I took the gourami out and put him in a bowl. It will stay warm here so he will be fine without a heater for now. We noticed he jumped at the guppies that are always together (male and -preggy- female)
Think I might pull the platy out if he doesnt start to look any better soon, and put him in the freezer. Also want to take the guppies back to the aquarium they came from - I wasnt a huge fan to begin with. Looking at other options for mid-top dwellers to go along with cory cats, ottos in a 10 gallon. Just added another power filter today to compensate for the overload so filtration isnt a problem. Not sure what I want, I love angel fish but afraid I dont have the room for that :( , maybe tiger barb, dwarf puffers.
What should I consider looking at?
Just wanted to let everyone know the DG got another albino cory before I decided to give up on him. He eats their rear rins off apparently and I am going to put this one to sleep before it has to suffer anymore.
Analog Saint
03-14-2005, 8:37 PM
Gouramis vary so much in their temperments- some can be very shy and skittish, others will be active and personable, and some will be a horrendously aggressive nightmare.
If you got a nightmare fish, try and take it back... Even if you don't get any money, the fish is just doing what fish do. It's not the fish's fault- the aquarium is an artificial environment imposed on it... It's not deliberately trying to wreck your tank, it's just doing what gourami instincts say. Take him back, see if you can exchange him for another fish, and hope for the best. As frustrating as it is, we have to realize that we're putting unpredictable creatures into an artificial environment, and they can react very differently than what is expected of them (or what we want from them).
My paradise fish was fine with cories for months. Then suddenly, he became incredibly aggressive almost overnight. It happens- I sympathize. I wouldn't reccomend the combination of cories with any semi-aggressive fish without MUCH caution and observation.
I'd take your gourami back, and let the tank recover for a while- your livebearers will place an increasing demand on your tank, so it's always good to have some slack in terms of tank capacity.
I feel pretty bad but I ended up putting the guy in a butter bowl full of water, and placing it in the freezer. When I got home and looked inside I felt even worse, but I dont think petsmart will be willing to take him back. I would really like to start getting fish from the lfs around here but with the hours they are open and when I work its impossible.
I am rethinking the guppies as well, might want to do like 5 neon tetra's or something.
Unfortunately my bronze cory is dead. No clue why he is, I acclimated him to the tank very slowly saturday, and he shows no signs of damage.
I want to know what are the odds of my albino surviving, or should I put him down humanely? His tailfin is gone, the rear 1/3 or so of his body is pale (in comparison to the albino tone of the rest of the body) and although he still swims, he seems to do it only when he has to otherwise I have seen him lying on his side, upside down a couple times.
Mooch28
03-14-2005, 10:36 PM
Gouramis also get very aggresive when building bubble nest or breeding. My two dwarfs in my 72 gallon get along fine except when breeding time comes around. Not only do they get aggresive on each other, but also towards other fish. But they never really do any damage.....
Spikor
03-20-2005, 1:35 PM
depending on what you mean by 'his tail is gone'....
if the fins are gone but he can still move around, you can repair that, if the fin is gone and some of the flesh is also missing, you should probably put him down. get some melafix if you dont'have it. buy a nice big bottle online if you aren't in a rush and save yourself some $$$. it can go pretty quickly. when is the last time you tested your water? how long has it been set up? what is the PH? Ammonia? Nitrtite? Nitrate? KH? Do you have a test kit or are you having Petsmart do it? Do they use seperate tests on the water or do they use the 5 in 1 test strips? the test strips are often way off and give poor readings.
i'd stop buying fish so readily if you can't get it stable. you need to figure out what is wrong with your water before you subject more fish to it. what is left? you put down a handful of your fish, right? unless you let us know what the deal with your water is, it is hard to help further.
you are probably right that the gourami is stressing the other fish to death but you could have a disease in there too.
Analog Saint
03-20-2005, 6:13 PM
If you already have a cat, and you get a new kitten, and the cats fight... Do you stuff the new kitten in the freezer?
That's an abominable way to deal with pets... Pet stores know that these type of things happen. That's why you can almost ALWAYS take fish back. Even if they won't, almost always you can find somebody that can provide the gourami with a good home... It's not as if it's a difficult fish to care for, or requires some great expense to keep.
These are creatures that are completely at your mercy. I've been in a similar situation- had a kribensis who bullied and killed several of my fish, and it was a very frustrating situation... I found a store who was willing to take my krib, and give him an appropriate home.
I implore anyone facing this kind of situation to make EVERY EFFORT to find a home for a bothersome or incompatible fish, not simply take out anger irresponsibly on a defenseless animal who is only doing what animals do.
cats are different than fish. If I had a few cats and somehow end up getting a tiger that picks my cats off one by one to kill them, what would you recomend? I didnt have anything to do with the dwarf gourami and I dont know anybody that would take him. Would you prefer I keep him in a small bowl for a few days until I can get back to the pet store to return him? Lets give him a slower death, good idea.
Point is he is gone, I went a different route with my tank since pretty much everything was killed by the gourami and all is good now.
Im not saying I wanted to kill it or anything, I felt pretty bad about doing it but I had to weigh my options at the time...Let it kill the rest of my fish, let it die a slow death in some small bowl that I had to quarantine him to, or just put it in the freezer which is the most popular 'humane' way to deal with it.
Analog Saint
03-21-2005, 12:02 AM
Gouramis are one of the hardiest fish out there. They're able to withstand a wide variety of conditions due to an evolutionary history in eastern asian swamps. Even a gallon jug with the top cut off would have held him over until you could get him back to the store. Feed him every other day to make sure he produces as little waste as possible, and pour out a little water and replace it every day or two, and he wouldn't have experienced any ill effect.
I'm not trying to be a pain, or to make you feel bad- everyone has mistakes like this, no matter how much research and planning they do. This board mostly is about learning from others mistakes so that we don't make them ourselves. I'm just trying to implore people not to be angry with fish for doing what comes naturally to them. I apologize if it seemed like a personal attack- that was not the intent at all...
powellmacaque
03-21-2005, 12:27 AM
cats are different than fish. If I had a few cats and somehow end up getting a tiger that picks my cats off one by one to kill them, what would you recomend? I didnt have anything to do with the dwarf gourami and I dont know anybody that would take him. Would you prefer I keep him in a small bowl for a few days until I can get back to the pet store to return him? Lets give him a slower death, good idea.
Point is he is gone, I went a different route with my tank since pretty much everything was killed by the gourami and all is good now.
Im not saying I wanted to kill it or anything, I felt pretty bad about doing it but I had to weigh my options at the time...Let it kill the rest of my fish, let it die a slow death in some small bowl that I had to quarantine him to, or just put it in the freezer which is the most popular 'humane' way to deal with it.
But it wouldn't have died in the bowl. Gourami's are like bettas, they breath air, and need little aeration.
What I did with my Paradise fish (related to a Gourami), is I got one of those clear 2 foot long, 6 inch high storage bins, and bought a bubbler and put my gourami in that. It lives quite comfy.
Spikor
03-21-2005, 10:50 AM
wooo!!!
learning is fun!
Sorry I didnt mean to react like I did. Just not having the best luck with this whole fish keeping thing. My girlfriend and her mom (who got me started) even think I am getting carried away with this little 10g tank (But its all I have room for right now)
Ive already replaced the hood with a fluorescent, changed gravel, bought a bigger HOB filter, gotten into live plants, bought a 5g to keep a betta and ADFs, Bought a chunk of driftwood, test kits, the works and I hate to see the fish not flourishing!
To be honest, I went to my lfs last saturday and bought:
5 neon tetras
2 bronze cory cats (to go with my 1 surviving albino)
3 ghost shrimp (just to see what it would be like to watch them, quite fun :)
and got a few Malaysian Trumpet Snails thrown in there.
Also got a black mystery snail for my 5gallon.
Acclimated all the bags the same way, float, then add a bit of water every 5 minutes for 3-4 times.
Sunday: neon tetra dead, stuck to the filter intake.
Went to another pet store and bought 3 neon tetras, trying to compensate beforehand anticipating my bad luck to strike these fish.
Monday morning, 1 dead neon tetra, monday after work, 2 more dead
Tuesday 2 more.
Looking at 3 left now, all look good and they made it through the day. Catfish are doing good, and the otto's are the only other fish I have in there (2 of them) they are doing great.
What is the deal? I have been doing weekly 1-2 gallon water changes using my water (untreated, but its well water so I dont believe I have to..?)
The tank is cycled, and the nitrates were 20 ppm when I did my water change this week.
My ph is high, as in off the chart of my high range ph. The lady at the LFS said this was normal, living in florida. Should I use some peat moss to try and bring this down a bit?
Im not going to get any more tetras in a hurry, and make sure these 3 live a while but I do want to complete their school.
Spikor
03-23-2005, 11:47 PM
some fish are more sensitive to PH than others. you could simply buy some PH adjuster that will bring it right to 7.0 which is good for most tropical community fish. i think this is the best and most accurate way to handle it.
how long has the tank been set up? do you have your own test kits? are they old? sometimes they lose accuracy.
I thought the ph adjusting chemicals were very temporary, and not recomended. It has been set up probably 2 months now.
I just bought the test kit from big al's about a month ago, they are aquarium pharmacutical brand (with the drops, not strips)
Spikor
03-24-2005, 1:58 AM
i've had good luck with the pH adjusters. Once i got it there i didn't really need to keep adding it. i liked that it just balanced it to 7.0 for me.
Good job on the test kit. :)
your tank is very troubling. Has anyone tested for water hardness? i've heard but i don't know that well water can be very hard in a lot of areas. at anyrate, i'd also be cautious of the well water as it may have WAY too many trace minerals in it. is this an artesian well or just a standard pump? you should test the water coming straight from your well. you could also look into using bottled water for a while and see if things improve. i hear reverse osmosis water is good for this, but i'm not sure. there is just something wrong with your water when you have that many dead fishes. either you aren't done cycling or the water is essentially toxic.
No I dont think the water has been tested for hardness. Its a standard pump well, and our water is fairly hard. Our coffee pots/shower heads/faucets usually crap out in a couple years and need replacing because of the buildup.
How about standard jugs of 'purified water', about $1/gallon at the supermarket. Doing water changes could get awefully expensive and tedious to do at anything more than that :(
On a side note, 2 other neon tetras were dead when I got home....
Pet smart and my lfs both use strips to test, and I dont know if they have hardness strips?
I just tested my tap water's pH and I guess its more like a 7.6 and my tank has around 8.0 pH now. No clue why the pH was so high last time I checked it (couple weeks ago)
Would it still be a good idea for my to start using drinking water (5 gallon jug-type of deal from the grocery store)?
Spikor
03-26-2005, 1:24 PM
i know that a lot of the places that let you bring your own jug to fill up use reverse osmosis water. if you can get that i'd give it a go. it can't hurt. or you can try to find a water congitioner that is good for fixing water hardness and all other minerals in there.
I got a jug of ro water last night, $.25 a gallon. Now in another post asking the best way to acclimate my fish to it everyone is teling me that it would be better to keep using well water and the fish arent bothered by the hardness and excessive minerals found in it.
I dont think Ive ever been on a forum quite like this before. No matter what you do, someone is going to tell you its wrong, and someone is going to say its alright, and someone will say it *might* be ok.
Spikor
03-26-2005, 2:02 PM
for sure. there is a LOT of advice out there some of which is bad, some good. etc...
but i don't see how you can really keep using your water source. it is almost definately the culprit here. check this article:
http://www.bestfish.com/tips/110598.html
just try using bottled water for a while OR get water softener and a KH/GH test kit to be sure, AND get your PH to 7.0. don't add any more wimpy fish! lol
gouramis are great in terms of hardiness. try getting some pearl gouramis. very pretty, very peaceful and VERY hardy. just don't mix up your gouramis with another fish that has long frilly fins, as they will nip at eachother.
Not looking to get any gourami's again, after the way the last guy tore my catfish apart. Sure it might have been an isolated case but just left a bad taste in my mouth. Plus Im dont really have the room in my tank for any larger fish like that
With the RO water I have, the pH is 6.4 and ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are all 0. Dont you need to add some sort of mineral additive to RO water to make it safe for fish?
I would like to get my water stabile and good, then finish my school of neon tetras, at which point I will be happy with the way my tank looks.
ariston
03-26-2005, 2:36 PM
Just another thought on the "cats are different from fish" theme. I have two cats, one of whom has caused me enormous problems with urinating on the furniture. It's destructive, costly, and time-consuming to deal with, not to mention aggravating, but I've kept my cat. Putting him down, or even giving him away to a good home, would be an absolute last resort. On the other hand, I wouldn't worry too much about putting down a problem fish humanely -- especially if that would prevent suffering to itself or to other fish. I suppose that finding another home for a fish is the ideal solution, but I don't think it's a moral travesty to put down a fish.
Looking at things from another angle: I wouldn't eat a cat, but I do eat fish.
ariston
03-26-2005, 2:54 PM
By the way, TJT, it's hard to know exactly what's going wrong with your tank, but I wouldn't add any NEW fish to it, as it sounds like there are some issues that are hard to troubleshoot. If you want to add new fish, I would suggest setting up an additional tank from scratch, and making sure it's fully cycled with stable water quality before adding any fish. Then add fish slowly, even if you do a fishless cycle first, just to make sure you're not overstocking. I wouldn't "seed" the new tank with anything from your old tank, since you've had problems in that tank, and it's possible some disease has been introduced there. (That would include NOT moving any fish from the first tank to the second tank.)
As for the first tank, if in the worst case scenario all the fish die, then I would disinfect it thoroughly before starting it over from scratch. You can't rule out disease as a cause of your problems.
Thanks ariston, in fact I do have a 5 gallon tank that I have set up for my betta and wanted to keep ADF, it is stocked with 1 male betta, 2 white clouds, and 3 ADF (originally bought 4 from wal-mart, 1 didnt look like it had eaten in a while and died...no suprise since the fish keeper at wal mart told me flakes would be fine to feed them, luckily i knew better.)
It has been doing quite well, and with the exception of the gourami killing fish, and the neon tetras dropping everything else is quite well. My new stock of cory cats are thriving, as are the otto's that have been in for about a month. The former residents guppies and platys also did well untill the gourami reeked havok.
On a side note, I went today and bought a hardness test kit (strips, because nobody had drops) and some electro-right for RO water. Tested my well water and got a GH of 300 and KH I would place somewhere between the 180 and 300 colors, probably closest to 300.
Test on the RO water shows GH of 25 and KH of 40. This is untreated with the electro-right. Should I treat my water with the electro-right and test again, posting results here?
There were 2 different bottles next to the de-ionizer at petsmart. The electro right and a ph raiser. Should I have gotten the other as well....? Dont think 6.4 is too low, though.
Another note on the cat ideals, if I brought in a new kitten and it started killing the 3 cats I have now, yes I would most likely kill the kitten. I can understand maybe you used a bad analogy and yes, I see where you are coming from. But dont think that the thought of finding a home for the gourami wasnt on my mind, unfortunately everyone I know with aquariums doesnt have a place for a fish like that. I tried my best to put him down as humanely as I could. Putting 1 fish down to save the lives of the 4 others that were left in my tank is just a choice I was forced to make. Unfortunately I guess I didnt think things all the way through (such as gourami's breathing surface air, and the ability to take him back at a convenient time using that to my advantage) but all in all I would say it wasnt the worst decision that I could have made in that spot. I am learning a lot with my first tank And I guess mistakes are going to be made along the line but I know better for next time.
Spikor
03-26-2005, 4:37 PM
your GH and KH are really high. do the adjustments and then retest and post. try to get your pH to 7.0 or as close as possible. :)
good luck.
GH came up to 150 with the electro-right, KH didnt change. pH is 7.0. What do I need to do about the KH?
After reading that article, would it be wise for me to put some peat moss instead of carbon in my filter? Would that really help at this point or should I keep trying to cycle down the well water with r/o water treated with electro-right, and at some point start using a 50/50 mix of well water to ro?
Spikor
03-26-2005, 9:18 PM
also, dwarf gouramis are way more aggressive than other gouramis. so even though yours was more aggressive than most, he was still a more aggressive type of fish to begin with. my gold gourami will pick on smaller gouramis of different types. my 2 pearls live with a rainbowfish, 5 molly fry (which they never even chase), 6 oto cats, and frogs, etc...
everyone is happy and colors are amazing.
I have to say that makes perfect since, I know of a 29g tank with livebearers and a pink kissing gourami which never even messes with the fry.
Spikor
03-26-2005, 11:41 PM
i'm not experienced with actually treating hard water, so i can't give advice...i just know that certain levels are toxic to certain fish, and regular neons are very sensitive to hard water. i would start a new thread regarding hard water. someone far wiser than I will surely help you out! send me a private message with the thread link so i can follow it if you don't mind, i'd love to learn about this some more too.
General Freshwater would be a good forum for it. I'd mention the high fatality rate, that you have well water, give all test results that you have, and see what they say. There's this guy Harlock who pretty much answers everything! lol.
best of luck
Harlock says I am overstocked with the 1 neon tetra, much less a school and basically refuses to answer any questions about my water.
Spikor
03-27-2005, 1:19 AM
weird. he is usually overly helpful, maybe he is burnt out!
i'd still make a new thread. someone will help. if not, try using the search feature for this site and google. i've had great luck that way too.
Thanks yo have been pretty helpful, seems all anyone else wants to do right now is scream overstocked at me.
Spikor
03-27-2005, 1:13 PM
i think overstocking is very common and i don't know how many fish you have in your 10 Gallon. With all the fish that died and all it was hard to keep track. i'm sure you've heard the 'rules of thumb' for stocking...and yes, too many fish in a small space can cause stress, disease, etc...
i think the bigger issue here is that some of the fish you've mentioned will grow FAR too big for a 10 gallon tank, but they will be ok for the time being. For example, many barbs get huge and you wouldn't want to keep one full grown one in a 10 gallon tank. but i am also overstoked by that logic and i will have to move some fish around as they grow, so i can hardly blame you there! if you have too many fish now, they can create more waste than can be filtered but you levels all seem pretty decent so I don't think that is an issue.
did you start a new thread ??
Flusher
04-04-2005, 10:27 AM
Interesting thread.
It does sound like the aquarium in question is overstocked, I hate to say. This is extremely easy to do, and I've been guilty of it myself. I used to overstock my tanks to nearly 200%, thinking that live plants added lots of leeway to general stocking guidelines. It turns out that this isn't true, because TDS (total dissolved solids) and DOC (dissolved organic compounds) still remain, even though ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate get absorbed by the plants. In an unplanted tank, nitrate levels are indicators of DOC, but the correlation is thrown off with live plants, making it very hard to measure some of the toxic stuff in the tank.
After learning about this, I reduced the number of fish I keep in my tanks. I have to say, an understocked tank is less stressful to maintain, because I know it's going to be able to hold its own for a long time. The fish all seem happier, too, and are consequently more fun to watch.
I've had terrible luck with Pearl Gouramis. Three died within 48 hours of purchase, one died after about two weeks, and my only one that survived for any length of time was outrageously aggressive. I've heard that gouramis are peaceful and hardy; I hope my experiences were out of the ordinary...
Neon Tetras are apparently finnicky fish not well suited for beginners. I had over twenty of them, and finally returned the last seven or so survivors to the LFS.
With my tetras and gouramis, all my water parameters were well within acceptable ranges. Hopefully you'll manage to figure out the problem in this case.
Good luck.
Spikor
04-04-2005, 11:03 AM
Pearl Gouramis are considered to be amongst the hardiest of the gouramis by many aquarists. both of the ones i bought lived and are doing quite nicely.