Peat Moss/GH/KH/Total Dissolved Solids

[tammy911]

Hi Everyone!

This is the first time I have ever signed onto one of these forums. You guys sound great! My problem is with peat moss filtration. It was suggested to me because our water here is hard and the ph is high (7.8) I don't have numbers on water hardness... no test quit for that yet. Anyway, my aqarium is 75g. I had been user a chemical ph adjuster, but would rather do it more naturally. Since I put in the peat moss, the level of the ph has stayed stable at 7.0. The problem is that I am not sure if I like the water color. I have read that the tannins are 'light eaters'. Does this mean that it will be detrimental to my new plants? If I put the carbon back in the filter, will it clear the water but still maintain the ph and water hardness levels? My filter is an Aquaclear 500 and I keep the temperature at 80F . I am just starting this tank (about 3 wks now) I have 6 longfin blue danios, 6 rummy noses, 3 cardinal tetras (had more, lost a bunch) and 1 harlequin rasbora ( again, there were more but...) So if anyone has any words of wisdom for me, I would really appreciate it!
Thanks!

[wetmanNY]

Hi tammy911! welcome to AquariaCentral, home of the mossiest fishheads on the net. (Did I do that okay, gang!)

Yes the peat will filter the light. But the tannins etc. ("humic substances") dissolved in the water are chelating nutrients for the plants, things like iron that would rapidly precipitate as hydroxides and become unavailable. And the lower pH means that CO2 isn't being locked up in carbonates. That's also good for the plants.

You gain some, you lose some...

Fresh activated carbon would adsorb the color-- whether it reduces the chelating power of dissolved tannins etc is a disputable question.

I bet you'll find when you test that your water isn't all that highly buffered after all. Not on the Laurentian Shield. That's why it's responding so well to peat filtration.

I don't think you have a problem at all. Your tetras should glow in that golden water.

[tammy911]

Hey thanks Mr. Wetman!

So you don't think that I should put the carbon filter back in? Will the ph continue to drop? If I do put the carbon back in, will the benefits from the peat remain until I do a water change? So many questions, so much to learn!

[wetmanNY]

If I do put the carbon back in, will the benefits from the peat remain until I do a water change?

I think so. I think I think so...

This is not a newbie question.

Take the peat out of the filter when your pH is where you want it. Soon you'll strike an easy balance. Many biological processes also put acids into the water and tend to lower the pH in between water changes.

[amy]

Welcome Tammy!

A pH of 7.8 really isn't that outrageous. Unless you are planning to breed a fish that is native to waters with lower pH, I wouldn't bother trying to change anything in the water out of your tap. A stable water chemistry is more important than the "right" water chemistry. All you really need with what you've described so far is a dechlorinator (and something to remove chloramines if your water department adds that) and regular water changes.

You mentioned that your tank has only been running for 3 weeks... Is it cycled yet? If you don't know what cycling is, then your tank probably hasn't been fully cycled -- which may explain some of your fish deaths. And if the tank isn't cycled, then it doesn't make too much sense right now to try adjusting the pH. Check out some of the info in the stickies at the top of the forum to learn more on cycling, then come back here if you have any more questions.

Good luck!

[Wulfy]

INSTEAD OF PEAT you can use a Synthetic Resin.
It lowers the GH (General Hardness) by taking out
Magnesium and Calcium salts out of the water and
substituting Sodim salts.

Best thing is, you can recycle the Resin by soaking
it in salt water.

It doesnt color your water but you may not like an ugly
teabag dunked in your aquarium.

I had the same problem as you. Our tap water
is stupidly hard here (10Gh).
I tried resin for a while.

Now I am using bore water.
Our local brewery is using deep bore water and sells
that to the public for U$2 for 15L.
The stuff is magical.
Only 0.5 Gh, 50 conductivity and 7Ph.
My fish got drunk on the stuff, left the aquarium and raped the local cats in their drunken stupor.

[Faramir]

The problem with the resin is that although it reduces the measured hardness of the water, it replaces each Ca++ ion with two Na+ ions.

The TDS (total dissolved solids) figure of the water actually increases.

It is the opinion of a lot of fishkeepers that fish that like soft water aren't so fussed about the actual GH, but about the TDS. Resins therefore make the situation worse for these fish.

[Wulfy]

Aaah... Thanks o wise one!

That explains why the conductivity of the Resin treated water went up to 450! (Tap water here is ~350).

[Tim Bo]

Yes Faramir! My escapades with cichs, especially the dwarfs, and peat have led to discovering how important the TDS factor is in breeding some of these little buggers. GH has been the least important factor, atleast when breeding SAm dwarfs IME.

[wetmanNY]

But there's a good trick!

All the water softener salts folks say that potassium chloride is just as effective as sodium chloride. It merely costs more. So recharging in a KCl brine instead of NaCl will substitute potassium ions for the calcium and magnesium ions...

then the plants will take up the potassium-- and some extra nitrogen and phosphate too, if K has been the limiting factor in the system-- as it often is.

[Wulfy]

I dont understand Wetman.
Im not having a go at you or doubting your experise, I just seek better understanding what you said.

What do you mean if Pottasium was a problem as it often is?

I thought you did not WANT potassium in your water because it feeds algea (which are tiny plants, which confirms what you say about plants using it up).

Can you please explain about why you would want
Potassium in your tank and why using it as a substitute
resin recharger for NaCl is a preferred way of inserting it
into the biosphere?

[RTR]

This is certainly NOT a newbie discussion. Very few experienced aquarists really understand what is going on here.

Softwater fish are not really low-pH fish - low pH is a symptom of low buffering capacity plus some significant tannins or related acidic organics in the water. They are really a specific form of low TDS fish, or low-conductivity fish, but folks are confused enough by pH, TDS is over the top fo them. The fish themselves usually adapt well to harder, higher pH water. Egg memberanes do not adapt well. To breed the fish you need to match their source water to greater or lesser degree.

The salt-exchange resisns are a consequence of good marketing taking advantage of naive fishkeepers. The water after use may be "softer" by aquarium kits, but the TDS is higher - as Wulfy's example shows so well - GH is a smoke screen for most tanks and most fish. KH is carbonate puffering and important, pH shows how well your buffer is holding. Post-exchange resin water is more different that tap from the fish's native water, not closer to it.

Wetman's technique for KCL rather than NaCl will result in the same post-resin TDS, BUT, plants eat lots of K. Planted tanks need to have K added. So in planted tanks, part of the resulting increase in TDS is absorbed and incorprated into plants in planted tanks.

HTH

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Wulfy
Aaah... Thanks o wise one!

That explains why the conductivity of the Resin treated water went up to 450! (Tap water here is ~350). Now -- I'm completely lost here in the 'newbie' forum.... :confused:

[Wulfy]

Thanks RTR. Now it all makes sense.

80gJoe, its better to ask a hard question in the company
of students than an easy question in the company of the wise.

Not only do the n00bs learn but in if you are not sure
if the question is hard or easy you know that
you will not disgrace yourself in the company of the wise :D

[famman]

OK oh wise (crack) ones, how is a synthetic resin different from a mixed bed resin as in a deionization filter?
I have stupidly high pH like 8.2 or higher. gh8 kh5 and I wonder if I have silicates because my di filter failed after one weekend. By failed I mean it showed only a partial color change but ph shot back up to tap instead of the nice 7.0 I started with.
any thoughts?
thanks,
:)

[Paul]

I am also trying peat to see if it lowers pH. I would have put the peat into the filter medium, but I have a Penguin Biowheel 170, and you can't open their filters. So I put the peat into a Whisper Bio-Bag and shoved it down behind the Penguin filter. Is this a good arrangement, or should I try something else? Is there another make a filter that fits the Penguin, but which you can open?

[RTR]

The DI resins are acid/base exchange rather than "salt" exchange. With acid/base resins, H+ (hydrogen ion) exchanges for the cations (Na+, Ca++, Mg++, etc.) and the OH- (hyroxide ion) for the anions (Cl-, HCO3-, CO3--, SO4--, etc.) The H+ is acid, the OH- is basic, they combine to HOH, or more familiarly, H2O - plain ordinary water. You have removed minerals, preserved charge balance, and net result replaced the mineral salts with plain water.

Unfortunately, recharge of these columns is not a home practice - it requires strong acids and strong bases in concentrations high enough to be quite hazardous - fume hoods with neutralizing exhausts, full protective gear, and acid/base masks for the technician.

[Tim Bo]

Very interesting discussion. Paul, I have written up a page on my own use with peat (which I will be updating at some point with more data on TDS, since, as RTR so eloquently explains, this is one of the more important factors, atleast it has been for me when breeding especially Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi and some of the other dwarfs. Took me a while to understand this (*blush*).
If you really want to get in depth and precise in order to work your way into the best conditions for your fish with peat, you'll need to get a few test kits but it's well worth the effort IMHO.
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/peat%20page.html

[famman]

Thanks RTR. You must have like the equivalent of a couple of Phd's in aquaria.

Any suggestions on how to deal with my silicates? Use a silcate/phosphate remover in a rechargable filter? Two di filters in tandem?

:)

[RTR]

famman - your GH and KH are both lower than mine, but your pH is higher. Is that a freash reading, or after aging? Fresh from the tap pH readings are not useful.

Do you know you have silicate & phosphate problems? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I use canisters, so use of phosphate resins in no problem.

[slipknottin]

I changed the title of this thread and copied it to the archives.

:)