Q on the use of Bio-Spira

[mishi8]

I've purchased some Bio-Spira from a US fish store, and had an interesting conversation with a staff member there. They said that the conditioner you use for treating the water can have a effect on whether Bio-Spira works or not. She specifically mentioned Amquel as having a negative effect on Bio-Spira working (apparently some aquarists have had problems with it), and that some other brands may be suspect as well. However, it could be just her method of selling Bio-Safe to go with it.

Anyone noticed similar problems? Before I use the Bio-Spira on my fishless cycle I want to dig a little deeper on this. I'd hate to be using Prime, for example, if it's a problem as well.

mishi8

[TrickyD119]

I got this straight off of Marineland Labs website.


IMPORTANT: BIO-Spira is a "live" bacteria culture that is sold refrigerated and must be kept refrigerated until used. It can not be overdosed. Repeated dosing of your aquarium with ammonia removing liquids (such as BIO-Safe, Amquel, Ammo-lock and Aqua-Safe) can inhibit the beneficial action of BIO-Spira. Ammonia removing liquids should only be used to initially treat tap water. It is normal to have a small (<2 ppm) amount of ammonia or nitrate during the first few days after set-up. These concentrations are not harmful and will quickly drop to zero with proper use of BIO-Spira.

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp

Sounds like she didn't lead you astray.

edit: And Prime would fall into that category I believe.

[mishi8]

I got this straight off of Marineland Labs website.



http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp

Sounds like she didn't lead you astray.

edit: And Prime would fall into that category I believe.

Thanks! I just looked at the same on their website (answered my own question! :) ) I did notice that Bio-Safe is also included in that list though! Sounds like the issue is more one of "over-dosing" rather than just using enough for removing chloramine from tap water.

mishi8

[Harlock]

Thanks! I just looked at the same on their website (answered my own question! :) ) I did notice that Bio-Safe is also included in that list though! Sounds like the issue is more one of "over-dosing" rather than just using enough for removing chloramine from tap water.

mishi8
Correct. Overdosing removes excess ammonia. If you use enough to treat water, you're fine. The fish will still generate ammonia. This still feeds the bacteria. If you overdose, you are taking the ammonia the fish make away from the bacteria. If you use BIO-Spira, I suggest testing it against pure ammonia, like you would in a fishless cycle. Just add BIO-Spira, add ammonia after a fwe hours up to 5ppm, then check it in 24 hours. I was stuck doing a fishy cycle for two weeks because my BIO-Spira was... not a great batch. Many folks see cycles from 1-7 days with BIO-Spira. So, doing it fishless saves you water changes and all the bad stuff for your fish.

[TorturedSOUL]

I've cycled 2 tanks with bio-spira now both without a problem. They were pretty much totally cycled in 4 days.

In both cases, I setup the tank added water, added prime, let it run for a while..about 6-12 hours until the temp was just right. I then dumped half the bio-spira into my filter/biowheel and the other half in the tank water. I then added some danios. 4 days later everything was totally cycled.

[mishi8]

I am doing a fishless cycle, have been for quite a while now, and seem to be going nowhere. If I'm still struggling with it by the time my Bio-Spira arrives (my ILs are bringing it home -- refrigerated -- with them in a couple of weeks) then I'll be trying it. In this case, since I already have been dosing the tank with ammonia and have been seeing readings of nitrites and nitrates for weeks, what would be the best way of using the Bio-Spira? Should I empty and refill the tank with fresh, treated water, add the Bio-Spira and then redose ammonia to 3-5ppm? Or should I just add it to the tank as is?

I'm at day 42 in my fishless cycle. My test readings yesterday were 1 ammonia, 5.0 nitrite (test limit), and 160 nitrate (test limit). My KH and pH have been dropping quite a bit, so I dosed with baking soda yesterday, and then added ammonia back up to 3-4 ppm. I haven't tested yet today...will be later on.

BTW, I've been seeing nitrites and nitrates since day 4 of my fishless cycle. Ammonia has come close to 0, and then rebounds when I've topped up the tank water, or have done a water change (to bring the nitrites and nitrates back in line...they had gone waaay off chart and were giving me really odd test results). I've treated any new water with Prime. Now ammonia won't go lower than 1ppm. Nitrites are stalled at 5ppm. Nitrates are way up there. Either my cycle is crashing, or I'm adding inconsistent amounts of ammonia, or my tank just won't cycle! Maybe I'll see results since adding baking soda? I'm about to just give up and fishy cycle from scratch once the Bio-Spria arrives!

mishi8
who is really tired of testing water everyday for the last 14 weeks!

[TorturedSOUL]

I've never done that fishless cycle. It sounds like some giant chemistry experiment gone wrong I mean your adding ammonia and baking soda and god knows what else. They should just tell you to **** in the water. :D

I would think if you have ammonia and nitrite present in the water that bio-spira would work, since basically it is just a bacteria culture that needs nitrites and ammonia to eat and thus grow.

You may want to buy some cheap danio or something and throw it in there and see if it lives.

[TorturedSOUL]

oh it sounds like you might want to change some/ a lot of your water. I mean if you have nitrites and nitrates it seems like the cycle is working and the bacteria colonies are working.

[mishi8]

oh it sounds like you might want to change some/ a lot of your water. I mean if you have nitrites and nitrates it seems like the cycle is working and the bacteria colonies are working.

The cycle isn't complete until I get 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite after 24 hours. So, no, the cycle isn't complete yet. The point of fishless cycling is developing a biofilter that can safely support a full bioload of fish. I seem to be stuck at about the same point I got to when I cycled with fish -- they ended up dying before the cycle was complete. I'm not going to just toss some danios in and see if they survive...especially since I don't want to have danios in my tank.

Perhaps someone who's BTDT has some words of wisdom?

mishi8

[mishi8]

I've never done that fishless cycle. It sounds like some giant chemistry experiment gone wrong I mean your adding ammonia and baking soda and god knows what else. They should just tell you to **** in the water. :D

BTW, if you have a problem with fishless cycling and want to comment on it, then start your own thread. Otherwise, keep the disparaging comments to yourself.

[Harlock]

Do a large water change to get your nitrates down. Test your source water as well, or if you have, please post your results. If your pH crashed that could explain a stall and even a die back. Do the water change, test it all again and see where you are. Make sure you are adding dechlorinated water and all that jazz.

[TorturedSOUL]

LOL. Good luck with your chemistry experiment.

[mishi8]

Do a large water change to get your nitrates down. Test your source water as well, or if you have, please post your results. If your pH crashed that could explain a stall and even a die back. Do the water change, test it all again and see where you are. Make sure you are adding dechlorinated water and all that jazz.

This is where I hesitate. It was after a large water change that I got set back. I haven't done a test today, but my tap water typically is 7.8pH, 0.25-0.5 ammonia (treated with chloramine), 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, 180 KH, and ~200 GH. I started treating the water with AquaPlus (supposed to be good for chloramine removal, but I don't think it touches ammonia), but switched to Prime when I did a water change.

The last water change I did was about 12 days ago. I saw the ammonia go from ~4ppm to a low of ~0.5 about 5 days later. I topped up the tank water that day and added ammonia back up to ~4ppm (I've added enough ammonia everyday to bring the level up to 3-4ppm). Since then (7 days ago) the ammonia has been hovering at 1ppm or a little less, and my pH dropped to 7.0 (low for my tank...with fish my pH sits at about 7.8). Yesterday I added the baking soda to raise my KH.

I've tested today (12 hours after adding ammonia) and I got: 84F, ~8.3pH, 2 ammonia, 5 nitrites, 160 nitrates, 13+KH, 13GH. It looks like my biofilter is handling about 1-2 ppm ammonia within 12 hours.

So should I change the water again and start fresh? Am I doing something obviously wrong here? I came so close to seeing 0 ammonia at about the time my nitrite and nitrate readings went completely screwy (waaay off the chart). That's when I did the first water change. And any time I've topped up the water or done a change my ammonia rises again...it's as if I'm either removing bacteria, killing it, or stalling it every time new water is added!

[tuvok]

I have had some recent experience doing fishless cycles on 2 tanks. While cycling the first of the two tanks I did a water change and forgot to dechlorinate until after the water was added. My bacteria seemed to take a bit of a hit but bounced back quite quickly. For the second tank I skipped the water changes, even after having very high nitrite levels, and simply kept adding half doses (i.e half of my original dose) of ammonia until the nitrites dropped (usually very quickly and with no warning). During the cycle for the second tank I paid no heed to nitrates except at the end before and after my final (and only) water change. With that said, water changes should not affect the cycling process but you never know if some wierd factor is at play in your particular circumstances. For my situation I did not worry about water hardness (had no test kit for it) and all was well. I have no specific recommendations here I guess except that cycling can potentially be as simple or as difficult as you want it to be. Sometimes the only real requirement (other than the half doses of ammonia) is patience.

[mishi8]

I have had some recent experience doing fishless cycles on 2 tanks. While cycling the first of the two tanks I did a water change and forgot to dechlorinate until after the water was added. My bacteria seemed to take a bit of a hit but bounced back quite quickly. For the second tank I skipped the water changes, even after having very high nitrite levels, and simply kept adding half doses (i.e half of my original dose) of ammonia until the nitrites dropped (usually very quickly and with no warning). During the cycle for the second tank I paid no heed to nitrates except at the end before and after my final (and only) water change. With that said, water changes should not affect the cycling process but you never know if some wierd factor is at play in your particular circumstances. For my situation I did not worry about water hardness (had no test kit for it) and all was well. I have no specific recommendations here I guess except that cycling can potentially be as simple or as difficult as you want it to be. Sometimes the only real requirement (other than the half doses of ammonia) is patience.

So how would you handle it, then, if your nitrites were so far off the chart that you were getting odd readings? Is there a point where there are such high nitrites that the bacteria will not be able to take care of it all? I'd think that the cycle would likely stall then...which is why I did a water change to bring the numbers back into testing range. I've also had to top up water because of evaporation and removing water for tests.

I don't see the fishless cycle as being easy vs. difficult...it's just what it is: a long process with daily testing (at least of ammonia...you don't know how much to add if you don't test). It's wearing on my patience though.

[tuvok]

It's wearing on my patience though.

I completely understand. OK, what follows is my opinion based on my specific experience. There are a few points you raise that I cannot answer definitively but I will share my *opinion*.

I'm not sure where exactly you are right now in terms of readings etc. but here goes.

-Dose the tank with ammonia till it is between 3-5ppm (if this is where you are at skip this part)

-Keep testing for ammonia. Only add enough to bring it back to your original desired level (i.e. 3-5ppm).

-Once ammonia drops to 0ppm overnight (eventually it will) and you start seeing nitrites do daily doses of half the amount of ammonia it took to get to 3-5ppm.

-You will see nitrites skyrocket. Your test kit will register the highest it can go. Don't sweat this. Just keep adding half doses of ammonia, keep your filter running etc. and relax.

-I slacked off on the ammonia tests once I was satisfied that my half doses were being processed. I did daily nitrite tests and monitored pH in case it went way too low. For the fist (5.5g) tank I did I did a water change because I thought nitrites might be too high, the second time (38g tank) I did not bother. In the 5.5g the pH went really low >5 and I added some baking soda. The 38g was more stable with regard to pH so no baking soda was added. No water changes were conducted on the larger tank. In your case I would just monitor pH and nitrite and continue to relax, read up on fish-related issues and maybe plan some aquascaping . . . whatever it takes to pass the time.

-This is where your patience is *really* tested. You will be close to getting sick of doing nitrite tests which register "off the chart" but then one day (usually when you have some other pressing matter to deal with) your water will test 0ppm for nitrites and your nitrate levels will be very high (possibly "off the charts"). Get ready to change your water and stock your tank.

-Do a 90% water change to bring your nitrates down as close to 0ppm as possible (I was happy with 10ppm). I used a dechloromining agent that did not neutralize ammonia to treat the water (not sure if this makes a difference). I changed the water the night before and then added a 1/4 dose of ammonia, in the morning I changed a few gallons of water (mostly just because it made me feel like I was being responsible). I then tested for ammonia and nitrite before leaving for the LFS (both were 0ppm).

To answer one of your questions in your last post (or not really answer it) I can't say for sure that high nitrite levels are good or bad, I just know that I did not really worry about that particular aspect of doing the fishless cycle.

I also did not concern myself too much with the water level. A lower water level may actually be beneficial as it will probably create more surface agitation from your filter return which should mean more oxygen for your bacteria. I guess if it was really low you could top up but I did not stress over this either. I did have a cover for the tank though so evaporation was not really an issue.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

[mishi8]

Tuvok, thank you for your detailed reply. I really appreciate your help. What you described is pretty much what I have been doing. The one thing that kind of threw a wrench into this is that I'm fishless cycling immediately after fishy cycling (a cycle that didn't finish before the fish died). So I was starting with some bacteria already, enough to remove all ammonia with a very small bioload, but not enough to remove all nitrites. I got nitrite and nitrate readings early in my fishless cycle, and then the numbers went so "off-the-charts" that my tests were starting at the darkest colour and then lightening by the 5 minute mark. I did re-tests with 1:4 ratio of tank to tap water to get a ballpark reading of what the numbers actually were. That's where I got really concerned about the nitrite levels and did the first water change (as recommended in the fishless guidelines I'm following). I expected that my ammonia should be down to 0 by now, especially since I'm getting such strong numbers for nitrites and nitrates. I'll be doing today's tests in a couple of hours...we'll see if I'm seeing any progress today!

[tuvok]

Cool. Hopefully you'll get some encouraging results.