all tank raised cardnial tetras

[lousybreed]

I am pleased to announce that all 36 of my cardinal tetras in my 55 gallon are tank raised specimens from florida. My first batch I got 1 yr ago and I didn't read the tag close enough but they were tank breed. Went back today and got 15 more. Talked to the lady that runs Wet Thumb Aquatics (www.wetthumbaquatics.com) and she only buys tank raised cardinals. They cost a whopping 1.25 a piece. I always wondered why my cards did so well in ph 7.0- 7.5 and total hardness of 9. Maybe it is because they are tank raised. They have just as nice of color, and I have never noticed any differences. They school tightly but are not timid at all.

[fishypoo2]

I guess you haven't heard of Project Piaba.

I'm a little tired, so I'm not going into any detail, but the harvesting of cardinals from the wild sustainably (and they are) is an alternative occupation to thousands of rural Brazilians. Without the market for this valuable fish, they would have to work by other means (mining, logging, slash-and-burn ranching, etc. ). The cardinal tetra, and many other Amazonian fish (along with many marines, now too) is an instance where wild harvest can be beneficial to the species and ultimately the rainforest.

The commercial rearing of such fish out of their natural habitat takes away the market for the fishery. Of course, wild cardinals can be less hardy and/or more sensitive, but Piaba research has been ongoing for over 15 years and is working on a solution where the fish could be better acclimated to a higher pH, etc.

[pbecot01]

This is an advertisement spam post.

[RTR]

What is spam? Not anything related to Project Piaba, which is a non-profit organization aimed at saving the rainforest and all its inhabitants by sustainable harvest, and has been for some time now a model for other projects throughout the tropics.

[TrickyD119]

What is spam? Not anything related to Project Piaba, which is a non-profit organization aimed at saving the rainforest and all its inhabitants by sustainable harvest, and has been for some time now a model for other projects throughout the tropics.
My guess is he is actually referring to the original post in that it was an advertisement for the fish store that was linked to.

I didn't get that impression however.

[lousybreed]

no it is not an advertisment, and i am aware of the positives of the cardinal tetra industry in the amazon. I just thought that it was weird that i was buying tank raised cardinals, I thought that all of them were from the rainforest. Hopefully there will always be a market for the wild ones so the conservation of the amazon continues...

[fishypoo2]

There will be a market as long as people keep buying them. Unfortunately, the commercial rearing of this species threatens that.

[lousybreed]

There will be a market as long as people keep buying them. Unfortunately, the commercial rearing of this species threatens that.

And I hope the cardinal doesn't become like the southeast asian breed neon tetras. They have become poor quality fish with many problems to the fact they dont even behave like a neon should.

mr fishypoo, have you noticed an increase in tank breed cardinals? Do you think that they will drive the wild ones out of business in the near future? I am going to check out your website on your sig....

[pbecot01]

I apologize for my first impression... just couldn't understand the point of your post except for the link to the fishstore.

When I reread it I figured out why you would post it.

Accept my apology? :)

[lousybreed]

No problem pbecot01, now from what I read I hope that most people actually don't buy captive breed cardinals. Sounds like the cardinal tetra trade is good for everyone from the collectors to the hobbists.

[NatakuTseng]

Also being tank raised doesn't make them any more hardy than a wild caught specimen. I had water that was 7.8pH and kH of 7 degrees along with a gH of 10 and my cardinals, all wild caught, did just fine. In some ways captive bred fish are not as hardy as the wilds. Wild caught discus, after going through a deworming regime to purge them of natrually occuring pests, make much hardier fish than any captive bred discus. Simply because they haven't had the pampering that the domestics have, its really the same with most fish. I've found the biggest thing with Cardinals is to bump their water temp up to around 82 degrees F or higher. Its actually a much more natural temp for them to be living in, they come from the same areas as Discus, very warm water. Its amazing how something so simple can actually prevent many of the problems you could encounter with fish.

[pbecot01]

The problem with wild caught fish is that the process of catching them and then shipping them the very long distance is a HUGE stressor that captive ones don't have. Once they have been settled in, then they are fine... but they can definantly require some pampering during acclimating them. Tank bred on the other hand have inbreeding problems.

Pros and cons on both sides of the issue :/

[FishSeller]

Buy as many tank raised fish as possible!

I would guess that there is, overall, an 80% +++ die-off with wild-caught Cardinal Tetras. For those that haven't done the math, for every Cardinal that makes in into your tank, four or more die. Many points are exactly right- every time a fish is handled, his chances for survival drop dramatically. When a fish, especially small ones, is netted and put on a boat, then sent off to a distribution center of sorts, then netted again, then sent to another distrobution center, then netted, bagged, shipped to L.A., then re-oxygenated for another flight (netted, bagged, new water again), then sent through a grader, then put in a wholesaler's tanks, then netted, then bagged, then shipped to the pet store, where it is netted and bagged again, things aren't too good for a Cardinal, or Neon for that matter.

Tank raised fish, on the other hand, are bred, netted, bagged, and sent to the wholesaler down the road where they go to the LFS. Granted, they are still handled several times in the process. However, it is nothing compared to what an imported fish goes through.

Most tank raised discus in LFS's tanks are imported from the far east. The issues with these guys is this: 1) The majority of these fish are raised in nearly sterile environments with extremely soft water and 2) These fish are often treated with growth hormone that brings out color in juvenile fish. While the second issue isn't a known fish killer, I do believe it can cause some health issues.

In other words: Buy tank raised fish! If at all possible, buy fish that are tank raised in Florida! Issues with color and health are constantly addressed and improved. In the end, you get a better product without killing quite a few fish in the process.

[NatakuTseng]

I know Importers who import from breeders in Asia, and I know importers that import wild fish in from the Amazon. The amount of stress put on the fish during shipping is no worse than what they encounter at your favorite LFS where chances are they aren't doing the right things to keep them anyway. The survival rate you quoted is no where near accurate. If it was, it wouldn't be economical for people to import those fish in from the wild, and then resell them at around 12 cents a peice to wholesalers.(After being caught, packed, and have the large cost of shipping them from South America) LA is not the center of the fish universe either, most of those fish come into the country in the Miami area, so a much shorter flight. Most of the importers also do not turn right around and ship them back out the door, they hold on to the fish for at least a couple weeks as a recovery period, yet another flaw with what you've said. Buying wild caught fish is not the bad thing everyone makes it out to be, many of these wild caught fish are actually being aquacultured in their native habitats, and like has been said, providing another income source for local people that prevents continued destruction of the rainforest.

As to the discus issue, your first reason for them not doing well, isn't all that accurate, any person that keeps discus knows that doing daily or every other day Water changes is just part of the life when growing out young discus, they don't do it any differently in Asia, or at the best known breeder in Germany. Its a universal thing, don't believe me, go check out the discus forums. Soft water, well actually thats not the best environment for growing out young discus, its been proven that using harder water with more minerals in it encourages faster and better growth, the breeders in asia know this and don't want to do any more to their water than they have to. Soft water is only critical when it comes to fertilization fo the eggs, nothing else. Your second point does happen, hormoning is a problem, but a minor one in these days, most breeders do not hormone their fish. The only problems with Hormoning fish is that they can become stunted and or will be infertile. Here's the real problem with LFS discus for the most part. They are Culls, meaning that if the breeder couldn't sell them to wholesalers, they would be euthanised and disposed of. They would do this because, they have defects,aren't growing fast enough, showing poor color for the strain at that age, etc. These fish are not given the care that the "A grade" fish are. Fewer water changes for them, fewer feedings. Along with that comes parasitic infestations, many being intestinal worms, flagelates, flukes...etc. Now ship them from asia to a wholesaler who gives them the same poor conditions and doesn't do anything to treat the problems, so they keep compounding, now ship them to your LFS where the conditions also are not suitable. So by the time you see the fish, they look horrible, and are half dead because of a parasitic infection that could have been prevented at the Wholesaler, but instead chose to pass it on to you and the LFS you go to. Nice of them huh?

But that all being said, most fish farms...are not just down the road from the wholesaler, guess what, most fish you see in the LFS all come from asia, not just down the road. So its not as simple or as nice as you make captive rasied fish seem.

[FishSeller]

Hey Nat,
I hate to break it to you, but handling a fish is handling a fish. Whether they go to MIA or LAX, those fish have a hell of a time being handled. As a wholesaler, I can assure you that quite a few fish come from "right down the road" when you're working in the Tampa Bay area- truly the hub of the tropical fish business in North America.
After a quick survey of industry professionals, an 80% die off is most definately a realistic number for wild-caught Cardinal Tetras.
Furthermore, distributors do everything in their power to move fish as quickly as possible. Statisically, survival rates go up when they are in their permanant homes as quickly as possible.
If by "aquacultured in their native country" you mean- they live in local rivers and lakes and then they're netted, you're exactly right. Maybe I should start selling "free range Cardinal Tetras". If Cardinals are being raised in S. America as opposed to being collected, this is new news to me.
I'll take it back to this- handling kills fish. A fish that is handled 10 times isn't going to do as well as a fish that has been handled 4 times. Furthermore, more fish are being raised in Florida than you realize. I can assure you of this. I work in the industry.

[NatakuTseng]

I work in the industry as well and am deeply connected with many discus importers and breeders, many of which also import other species of fish, and none of them have those massive losses that your talking about. Yes there is a lot of farming down in FL, but most of the domestically raised fish are still coming out of Asia. Why because they are cheaper. So, must be the guys you know are doing something wrong.

[Timmain42]

Uh, ouch. :(

[fishypoo2]

Buy as many tank raised fish as possible!

I would guess that there is, overall, an 80% +++ die-off with wild-caught Cardinal Tetras. For those that haven't done the math, for every Cardinal that makes in into your tank, four or more die. Many points are exactly right- every time a fish is handled, his chances for survival drop dramatically. When a fish, especially small ones, is netted and put on a boat, then sent off to a distribution center of sorts, then netted again, then sent to another distrobution center, then netted, bagged, shipped to L.A., then re-oxygenated for another flight (netted, bagged, new water again), then sent through a grader, then put in a wholesaler's tanks, then netted, then bagged, then shipped to the pet store, where it is netted and bagged again, things aren't too good for a Cardinal, or Neon for that matter.

Tank raised fish, on the other hand, are bred, netted, bagged, and sent to the wholesaler down the road where they go to the LFS. Granted, they are still handled several times in the process. However, it is nothing compared to what an imported fish goes through.

Most tank raised discus in LFS's tanks are imported from the far east. The issues with these guys is this: 1) The majority of these fish are raised in nearly sterile environments with extremely soft water and 2) These fish are often treated with growth hormone that brings out color in juvenile fish. While the second issue isn't a known fish killer, I do believe it can cause some health issues.

In other words: Buy tank raised fish! If at all possible, buy fish that are tank raised in Florida! Issues with color and health are constantly addressed and improved. In the end, you get a better product without killing quite a few fish in the process.

:confused: What are your sources? 80% is horribly incorrect. No money would be made in them if that were the case. Recent studies have shown 5-6% die off at maximum between the river and retailer. If the aquarium hobby begins relying on tank raised cardinals, the Barcelos economy will collapse and the rural Amazonians will be forced to cut down trees to sell, make way for a cattle ranch, farm, or perhaps go into the mining business. Would you rather this?

Project Piaba researchers are working on improving handling techniques for the cardinal tetra so that mortalities may be reduced. As far as the cardinal tetra fishery is concerned, it does not matter whether the fish are farmed in Florida or SE Asia.

I know this sounds a little dramatic, but it is NOT exaggerated. Basically, if people stop buying wild caught cardinals (they make up 87% of the exports from Manaus) the rural Amazonians that depend upon the SUSTAINABLE fishery will be out of work and will be looking for other ways to make money (most of which are very harmful to the environment).

Which do you prefer as the "better product"?

P.S. My sources:
=Personal communication with everyone from retailers, wholesalers, IBAMA officials, Brazilian Government, collectors, exporters, biologist, ichthyologists.
="Observations on the Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) Ornamental Fishery With an Enphasis of Assessments of Stress" a Master's thesis by Scott Dowd.
=My own award winning article in TFH "From River to Home: the Journey of a Cardinal Tetra."
="Conservation and Management of Ornamental Fish Resources of the Rio Negro Basin, Amazonia, Brazil - Project Piaba."
etc., etc....

[fishypoo2]

And I hope the cardinal doesn't become like the southeast asian breed neon tetras. They have become poor quality fish with many problems to the fact they dont even behave like a neon should.

mr fishypoo, have you noticed an increase in tank breed cardinals? Do you think that they will drive the wild ones out of business in the near future? I am going to check out your website on your sig....

As I said in the earlier post, although it might matter to the hobbyist whether this fish was bred in SE Asia or Florida, it doesn't to the fishery. Any captive breeding projects take a good chunk out of the market for the wild cardinals.

I have noticed an increase, although slowly. As far as I know the majority of captive raised fish are from the Czech Republic and Florida. If nothing is done to allow the Barcelos fishery to adapt and improve the quality of their cardinals, the market may ultimately be stolen from the Brazilians, forcing them out of work.

ProjectPiaba.org is not up yet, as you have found if you visited it. We are still using:
http://www.angelfire.com/pq/piaba
and
http://www.finarama.com/projectpiaba

[lousybreed]

what started as a small post it has really gown into a very interesting and eye opening experience. There has been a couple low blows in this thread, but I am definatly learning more about the industry.

[lousybreed]

went to the finarama site and most of the links dont work. what other fish are produced by this region? Who ever started this program was an envisonist (sp?) and a genius. That is truely amazing what several scientists and thousands of natives have done to feed their families and save the environment. does anyone have the water chemistry of the waters around that area? It would be interesting to hear from anyone that actually went to the area. If i remember correctly, dont most of cardinals die each year in the dry season?????

[NatakuTseng]

I haven't been down there myself, but I can tell you the general water chemistry you'll find in their native habitat. Water is generally 5.5-7pH depending on the area, soft with a low gH which can vary anywhere.

[lousybreed]

nat is it true that the temps are 80 plus??? I have heard everywhere from 78 to 85F. There is different opinions on the best temp for the animals???? Thanks in advance!

[FishSeller]

I'm sticking to my guns on suggesting that the Cardinal Tetra does indeed suffer somewhere around 80% die-off from river to consumer's tanks. Every customer I spoke with yesterday said the same thing, many of whom no longer carry wild-caught Cardinals for that very reason. Handling kills fish. Graders kill fish. Nets kill fish. Fewer steps in the process keeps a fish healthier. Distributors may not see this, wholesalers may not see this, hobbyists certainly do. Perhaps this is why they'll pay as much as $4.00 apiece for a Cardinal Tetra. Marine folks have already realized this- look at how many people are trading and selling aquacultured corals. The "new frontier" of the industry is in ornamental marine aquaculture for several reasons, the least of which not being survivability.
The save South America project is all well and good, but from what I've seen coupled with personal experience, and backed by professionals shows to me that you're trying to avoid exploiting the rainforest by exploiting the rainforest??? I'm not trying to be petty and I'm not trying to throw low blows, but I can't help but believe that if a fish can be raised in captivity rather than being removed from what is admittedly, on all ends, a fragile environment; then by all means captive raise it!

[NatakuTseng]

Yes the cardinals do prefer the higher temps. Its not uncommon in the wild for them to be exposed to water temps up around 90. During the night it may drop back down to the high 70s but on average its lower to mid 80s. This is one of the reasons many people keep Cardinals in with their Discus, because they do come from the same type of environment, and they handle the higher temps discus require extremely well. Neons on the other hand come from areas where the water temps remain lower, pretty much always in the 70s, these fish, if exposed to temps above 80 for extended periods of time, will die off.

Seller, if you and your customers are reporting 80% die offs, your doing something wrong. Its that plain and simple. I spoke to two of my friends last night down in FL, who told me that they consider 5% a high mortality rate when importing cardinals, and that simply 80% is absurd, there is no way to make money off cardinals with those types of mortality rates, and they wouldn't be importing them if they did lose that many fish. In the same token wild caught discus are just as hardy as their captive bred compainions, and have maybe a 2% mortality rate, if that high.

[OrionGirl]

Sustainable 'exploitation' will be the salvation of many wild places and species. People who don't have a stake in an area don't protect it and don't manage it sustainably. Those who rely on a habitat are willing to take care of it and manage it as a resource. The same holds true for land, water, and animals. There are many situations that support this--do some research on crocodiles in India and Australia, bears in Eastern Europe, tigers in India....

[FishSeller]

Nat,
The fish weren't dying here. They usually weren't dying in my customer's tanks. The fish were dying in the consumer's tanks. Now, go back to the original post that started this thread. The consumer reported major success with captive raised fish! Major damage to gills, internal organs, and slime coat takes a while to show up. All of this damage increases exponentially every time a fish is handled- an issue that you have avoided through this whole discussion. The Cardinal Tetras we ship are all Florida Raised. They are handled many times less than an imported specimen. We have received excellent reports. It would be asenine to say that tank-raised fish are not healthier as a whole. Happy hobbyists fuel this industry. Hobbyists are happy when their fish live. Buying Florida Raised fish doesn't guarantee a 100% survival rate, however, it is unquestionably higher than imported Cardinals.

[ashdavid]

Marine folks have already realized this- look at how many people are trading and selling aquacultured corals. The "new frontier" of the industry is in ornamental marine aquaculture for several reasons, the least of which not being survivability.


FishSeller please understand that I am not having a go at you and I was not going to say anything about this topic b/c to be honest I dont know alot about it. But please do not compare tetras with coral. The reproductive cycle and growth rate of coral is many, many times slower than a tetra's. The reason why coral is being propagated is because it is not veiwed as being sustainable at rate it is being taken from reefs(hense the great prices, obviously there are other factors involved as well). Coral reefs are very fragil living organism's which are absolutly vital to the lives of hundred's of thousands of other organism's, to upset this balance can have devastating results. This however is to my understanding is not the case with tetras, I will add that there has to be a balance with tetras as well, but comparing taking corals which is more like comparing the taking of a rainforrest itself is more to the mark. So the point you are trying to make ,is to my understanding what Project Piaba is promoting, the, I quote "sustainable" wild caught tetra's and not the destruction of rainforrests, which in laymans terms is not taking too many so as to bring levels below recovery. I my eyes the example you have given is a poor one and jmo but it dose nothing for your argument. :)

[FishSeller]

David,
I was speaking more in the concept of raising specimens in captivity. What is the point in buying something with a high motality rate when you have the option of buying something with a low mortality rate?

[ashdavid]

FishSeller I can understand your point of veiw very well. If the mortality is as you say then I can only hope that the importers of these wild fish can improve their methods. On the other hand other people have made a good argument about saving the rainforrest through project piaba . Maybe there should be a movement to promote breeding through the people of the amazon, this would then creat jobs and income and in doing so saving wild tetra's, this could also reduce handling if done proporly. I dont know ,I dont have all the answers. I was just concerned that you compared corals with tetra's which imo cannot be compared, but like I said I was not trying to have a go you and I hope you can understand that. ;)

[NatakuTseng]

When a fish dies in the CONSUMER's tank, most of the time it is the Consumer's fault. Why because they do not know the proper way to keep fish, like having the tank cycled. It is not even remotely related to the importation, shiping and such of those Cardinals. Comparing the death rates the importers encur to those that consumers have is like comparing apples and oranges, it just doesn't mix. Just because you have a tank raised fish, doesn't mean its gonna survive in those tanks any better than the wild ones. I stand behind my statement that if your customers and their consumers have a 80% death rate among your wild cardinals, those people are doing something WRONG. Having worked at a LFS, and it being one of the better ones in the area, 90% of them out there do not keep their fish the way they should, NONE of the fish. So don't go around peddling your domestically raised cardinals without presenting the facts in a fair manner, which you have yet to do. Yes shipping does cause stress on the fish, but not that much. That "high mortality rate" that you keep flaunting wouldn't exist if the LFS, and consumers were more educated about keeping fish, period, wild or not.

[FishSeller]

I am politely backing down from this discussion simply because we're looking at things from two totally different aspects. I understand the points made. I will say that I am a member of Ducks Unlimited, the Coastal Conservation Association, United Waterfowlers of Florida, The Billfish Foundation and other groups concerned with the preservation of wildlife through proper management of the species. I work for a company that is also focused on the conservation of reefs, the Amazon, and other ecosystems. The slippery slope we're standing on focuses around the commercial harvest of a wild species. More often than not, overcollection or in many cases, over exploitation eventually becomes an issue. As for myself, I will contine to support the domestic propogation of any animal when possible. Further, I will continue to support a domestic economy. Sometimes that option is not viable, sometimes it is. Either way, I commend your passion and wish you the best in your endeavors.
I urge the hobbyists reading these posts to weigh out what both sides have said and make their own decisions concerning their purchases. Try both fish. See which ones work for them. We should all be sharing a common goal- the enjoyment these fish bring into our homes. The live ones (wild or tank-raised) are, IMHO, much more entertaining.

[fishypoo2]

went to the finarama site and most of the links dont work. what other fish are produced by this region? Who ever started this program was an envisonist (sp?) and a genius. That is truely amazing what several scientists and thousands of natives have done to feed their families and save the environment. does anyone have the water chemistry of the waters around that area? It would be interesting to hear from anyone that actually went to the area. If i remember correctly, dont most of cardinals die each year in the dry season?????

The finarama site was never finished.

Some other fish:
Freshwater stingrays, Apistogramma cichlids, rummy nosed tetras, flameback tetras, bleeding heart tetras, Ancistrus dolichopterus, discus, checkerboard cichlids, knife fish, angelfish, marbled hatchetfish, severums, large and many fancy plecos, piranha, Crenicichla (pike) cichlids, peacock bass (tucunare), pacu (tambaqui), oscars, uaru, and many, many others.

The water parameters:
pH 3.5 to 5.0
Hardness little to none
Temperature (differs) usually around 70-80, but can get as low as mid-60s in rare spots.
(This is what is generally accepted an I can verify, I visited on a Piaba expedition for three weeks this past January.)

Yes, cardinals are annuals, just like many killifish. They live for a year, breed (each female can lay around 500 eggs) and die soon after. The fish are collected, for the most part after the breeding season, with no effect upon the breeding population of the species. Obviously, they can survive much longer when housed in aquaria.

[fishypoo2]

I do have a few comments on what has been discussed over the past few posts here.

FishSeller has an excellent point: why buy fish if they will die?
The ordinary consumer for cardinal tetras are not hobbyists, but beginners. These are people that do not know that these fish might be a little fragile.

Project Piaba has done extensive research on conditions and stressors that the fish endure starting from capture until they reach the retailer. Although many of the stressors occur during export/import. The fish do not die here, however. That, compounded with all of the other stresses (and, yes, often improper care) will cause a fish to succumb even after the major stress has passed. This is why the fishery needs to adapt to ways of acclimating the tetras better: they will (a) be less stressed when they reach their destination country, and (b) be hardier and will survive better in the keeper's tanks.

However, because this has not happened yet, is no reason to give up on it. IF the market for wild caught cardinals fails before we (Piaba) can develop better acclimation standards, it will fail.

And, of course, there are more instances than otherwise where the captive propagation of a species would definitely help alleviate pressure on wild stocks. If at all possible (as in this case, and a few others: Project Seahorse, Marine Aquarium Council, etc...) SUSTAINABILITY is the best option. As it stands, most fish present in the (freshwater) hobby are captive raised. Most others are generally not collected in numbers that would deplete the wild populations. Basically, what I am trying to say is buy captive raised, unless buying from a sustainable source, is the way to go.

P.S. And I also do not mean to start a quarrel, but an intelligent discussion.

[ergo sum]

This is an interesting discussion.

It strikes me that at all times an informed consumer is always better than ignorant one. You make better choices that way no matter which side you come down on. In the end the almighty $ decides. The key thing is what is sustainable in the long run.

[JSchmidt]

I really like cardinal tetras (neons, too) and I like the idea of supporting a rainforest economy. I have to say, though, of the cardinals I've bought (and which I'm pretty sure were wild caught), I'd be overjoyed to have only 5% loss from the LFS to my home (even with a good LFS and decent husbandry skills). I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that cardinals coming from the Amazon to my tank experience only a 5-6% mortality rate. I applaud any research that would lead to that, but it sure doesn't fit my experience, and the good LFS I frequent (75 miles away) doesn't believe it either.

I'll happily buy live-caught fish, but not if it means that a large percentage of them die getting to me. That isn't sustainable aquaculture, to me. My experience with Florida-bred neons, which is more extensive, is that they are significantly hardier than wild-caught. I'd be very interested to compare cardinals...

Jim

[waverush]

Allow a random, slightly off-topic question from a new member lighten the air a bit. This is going to sound like a stupid question after I ask it, but...do cardinals resemble neons as juveniles, and "color up" as they mature? *ducks*

[Canuck]

Interesting discussion. And I can see both arguments have validity, I'd like to throw a couple of random thoughts out.

The death rate of a "popular" fish may be a little misleading. I would expect 80% of most of the popular fishes die in hobbyists tanks, whether tank bred or wild. Novices choose these fish due to price (remember 90% of people who buy a tank give up within a year).

Cardinal tetras and neons are seasonal fish, 80% of them will die every year whether they are exported or not. Granted, in order to stay competitive (by keeping customers happy) the South American industry will have to improve shipping methods (and profits) for middle men.

If the harvest isn't done in a sustainable matter, it will be a tragedy. On the other hand if industries that increase the value of a healthy rain forest don't take root, then we're all up the proverbial creek.

"Tank" raised fish are by far the healthiest but will never be a serious part of the market place (too expensive). Farm raised stock are price competitive but have an awful track record for health and have promoted a number of trends (ie dyed fish, hormones, that are not in the long term interest of the industry.)

Don't ever fall for the foolishness about supporting "domestic" jobs vs "foreign" jobs. Read up on what happened during the Depression and see where protectionism gets you. Purchase the product or service that gives you best value (and is sustainable).

[Carla G]

Allow a random, slightly off-topic question from a new member lighten the air a bit. This is going to sound like a stupid question after I ask it, but...do cardinals resemble neons as juveniles, and "color up" as they mature? *ducks*

From my observation, the differences are apparent from the beginning. Both are brightly coloured, but the cardinal has red the whole length of its body.

[KarlTh]

Another zombie thread!

[waverush]

...I am always the one to revive a 4-year-old thread, without even realizing it... *blushes*

I kind of knew the answer to my own question, but wanted some reassurance. I just don't want to chase down 9 neons that I purchased as cardinals yesterday, which I may have to do. I'll just call and ask the same question I just asked, then explain what my purchase looks like.

Thank you!

[Slappy*McFish]

You'd probably get more responses to your questions if you just started your own new thread. Many people might not read through every page of a thread and miss your question entirely. Especially with a thread as old as this one. Anyway, it's a moot point now.

[waverush]

:-)

[Carla G]

Well I'm glad someone bumped the thread. I found it fascinating. I didn't know anything about the controlled harvesting program or the rainforest preservation efforts or that cardinals were being tank raised. And I would never have found it if someone hadn't dug it up. So thanks. :)