Should I keep my fish? (long)

[ariston]

So I need to decide whether to keep my new sick angelfish, or return them. I have until tomorrow (Tue) night to decide, before the warranty is up. Here are the facts of the case.

:read:

1) The major symptom is fin rot. It's getting worse pretty fast now. As far as I can tell, there are no fuzzy edges. It looks a lot like the rot on this betta:
http://www.bettatalk.com/images/fin_and_tail_rot_copy.gif

2) There is a secondary symptom of occasional fin "flicking". This is pretty rare, but once in a while one of them will flick its ventral fins (the long spiny ones) -- the fish will pull them close to its body and then snap them away, maybe twice or so. Also, once I thought I saw one fish try to scrape its body along the edge of a plastic plant.

3) I didn't realize they had the fin rot when I bought them, but I'm pretty sure they came in with it. I've gone back to look at the tank they are from, and there are definitely some other angels in that tank with fin rot.

4) The fish are from PetsMart, which I'm told uses central filtration. They have fish in other tanks that definitely have ich. There is also one other fish there, a pacu, that I've seen rubbing its side against a rock. (I didn't really notice any of this when I bought my fish -- I know more what to look for, now, and probably won't buy from PetsMart again. The sales guy seemed pretty unconcerned when I showed him the fish that had ich.)

Here's my situation:

a) Ammonia and nitrites are zero; nitrates are 10-20.
b) I started treating with Melafix 3 days ago. I've added it daily as per the instructions.
c) Yesterday I treated with Jungle Labs Parasite Clear (from the tank buddies line).
d) I was doing 30% water changes every 2-3 days until I started using meds.
e) So far there is NO salt in the tank at all.
f) I have never used carbon in the filter.

My best guess is that the fish have ich that hasn't shown up yet, and this is leading to the fin rot as a secondary infection. But I don't know if this is right, and I'm not sure what to do.

:help:
How likely is it that I, a newbie, will be able to cure these fish? Should I return them? (I only have until tomorrow night to do it.) If I keep them, is that only rewarding PetsMart for selling sick fish? If you think I should keep them and treat them... what should I do from here?

Thanks for your advice!

-ariston :dive2:

[Leopardess]

Here are my thoughts.

1) The odds of getting a fish that isn't sick in some way or was not housed with sick fish is almost nil, sadly.

2) Treating these fish can be good practice for further fish purchases.

3) Unless the fish cost a lot of money, it would be good practice.

4) The odds of them being treated if returned to the store are about zero.

5) You have valuable resources here and won't be alone in treating them if you ask for our help:)

How many did you buy and are they in a hospital tank or in with other fish.

As I said before, I'd do a big water change to clean the water and rid if of the meds you've been using.

Since it seems, as of now, that your biggest concern is the fin rot, I would aim to treat that. Because you suspect ich may also be present, the best route I see is to use a salt treatment and perhaps a little bit of heat because it would kill both simultaneously.

That is just me though. I tend to get attached to the fish and I've never returned any. I am positive other people will feel differently.

Regarding your number two symptom, if I understand you correctly, that is just a normal movement of the angelfish fins. Mine does it all the time:)

[ariston]

Leopardess, thanks for the offer to help. I should have taken you further up on it, right away... I had read elsewhere that topical treatment involving hydrogen peroxide and anti-bacterial cream has worked in some cases of fin rot. I know I had already stressed out my fish quite a bit, but I thought I would try this as one additional effort. The fin rot was progressing more and more rapidly and seemed likely to kill them soon enough if it wasn't cured. Perhaps I should have just waited it out... but I went ahead with the topical treatment. My main mistake, I think, was that I used rubbing alcohol instead of hydrogen peroxide -- as a topical agent, of course, not added to the water.

Ouch. I tried it on half the fish, and I'm sad to say that in addition to seeming very stressed, after a couple hours, those fish were paralyzed. I'm pretty sure I didn't get any in their mouths or gills, either. So my next trip to the store was to buy clove oil. :(

I think I will take the remaining fish back to PetsMart tomorrow. I will try again with fish from another source after disinfecting and re-cycling, but I will also bone up on fish health in between. I've been impressed with information at FishDoc: http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/

I especially like what they have to say about diagnosing versus guessing. It will take quite some effort, and maybe assistance from a veterinarian, to actually diagnose, but it seems like it would be better than guess-treating, which is really what I was doing (and I guess what most people do, really). I'm especially hesitant to guess-treat with antibiotics because of issues stemming from increasing bacterial resistance. I don't agree with all the conclusions in this essay, but there's some good info on that issue here:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/antibac.shtml

Three angels, RIP. :(

[redbucket]

sit in the fish store, bring a folding chair if you have to, and watch the fish you're about to buy for several hours. when store employees ask you about it say something to the effect of "i'm a big weird fish guy. i just want to observe the fish i buy before i buy them."

they'll leave you alone, and you'll pick out a healthy fish you actually want. or, you'll move your folding chair to the next pet store down the street.

[mooman]

Good advise red bucket. I do this all the time with cichlids to determine who the "pairs" are. There are so many things you really don't see untill you've been watching for five or ten minutes.

On a side note, I read an article written by a semi-profesional angel breeder that talked about how he culls his fish. He seperates them based on fin size/shape/symetricality, color, and pattern. They go into four grades:
A-keeps as breeders
B-trades and sells to other breeders
C-sells online, or at auctions
D-LOCAL FISH STORES

I've seen tanks chock full of angels at "big box" retailers with none that did not have some kind of fin deformation or other genetic abnormality. Your best bet is to get them from a breeder or a lfs that focuses on fish only, and knows the difference between someone elses culls and a quality angel. They should cost alot more, but for a fish that will certainly become your center piece fish it's worth it.