ideas/input for my tank

[attiladahun]

any ideas for a 20-gal, tropical community aquarium as far as fish go? i don't really have an eye for design, but i want special emphasis on the fish's hardiness, colors, and compatibility.

all ideas are appreciated, thanks

[zazz]

You may have already done this.
Look online for fish profiles with pictures.
There is a LOT to see.
Maybe if you focus on fish that will fit in a twenty gallon tank, that ould be a good way to start narrowing.
the profiles usually mention hardiness, and, a really cool feature on many of them is "compatible tank mates"
It all can get very confusing, but you might get some ideas of fish you might like, or types of fish, and then bring those back here for a starting place for feedback.
Also if you browse through these forums for questions aimilar to yours, you might get some ideas too.
Not sure what you meant by design, another factor to consider is aiming for activity atthe bottom, middle and top of the water. Also, maybe think about whether you'd like zippy, active fish? calm, gentle fish, fish with interesting behaviors to watch?
I hope any of this is in the least helpful.
PS I just 'Googled' "twenty gallon aquarium" and got some interesting results.
Give it a shot, if you havent already. I am thinking you might get better reponses here if you gave a little bit more of a place to start.
checkout fishprofiles.com

[greendeltatke]

That is really good advice, zazz. Some thing else you might consider is what your temperature and water parameters are going to be. You won't get a really good idea just from the tap water. Set up the tank complete with whatever plants and driftwood you are going to use, wait a few days, then measure the parameters. My ph went from 7.6 in the tap to 6.8 after a week with my malaysian driftwood. I also found that even without a heater one of my tanks stays steady at 74 degrees. If that were to be a cold water tank I would have a hard time cooling it over the summer.

Also, if you haven't already bought the tank, go up one or two sizes. Trust me, once you start the temptation to go bigger will be overwhelming.

[d0nuT]

I can vouch for the wanting to go bigger straight away! :D I have a 20 gallon that a friend gave me (how lucky am I? :D) and I really want a bigger one too! (notice the too? No way I'd get rid of this one either! :) )

There's a wealth of information on this site and the people here are great with helping out with ideas and hints too! With a 20 gallon there's a huge array of things you *could* do. The thing that I did was to just read up and really decide on my set-up before I did anything. That way I minimalised any mistakes that could have happened with fish compatability and the like :D Tetras are quite nice, as are loads of others! They're very pretty and would go nice in a 20 gallon :) Cories are cool too and very cute :)

Good luck with this!

D

[Holly9937]

Another good idea is to search through the members aquarium specs. in the forums here. There is no guaruntee that the stocking choice of any given tank was a good idea, but if something catches your eye, you could repost specific fish and see what people think.
Also, make sure you do research on whatever fish you decide and do not rely on the fish store to give you accurate advice on what fish will be ok for your tank. I was told that bala sharks (that can get over a foot long) would be ok for a 35g tank :eek: !! I recently upgraded to a 180 gallon tank so that I could keep them.
In general, one fish that would work with your tank size wise, are cory cats, 3-5 of them. They like to be with their own kind (preferably same species too) and are very cute and active. Also, take a look at the tetras (try the species profile on this site). A group of corys and 10 or so of one kind of group of tetras might be nice. Also, mollys, platys and swordtails come in lots of colors and are neat fish, you could check those out.
Let us know if you come up with any ideas!! Good luck

[zazz]

I read some of your old posts. What did you have in your ten gallon?
What would you like the same or different in this one.?

[attiladahun]

-zazz

I started out w/ 6 zebra danios, then got 2 serpae tetras, one died, then 2 tiger barbs, one died right away, the other a few months later, the serpae died, then 3 of the zebras, then got a pair of swordtails, they died QUICK, got a snail, it did nothing for 2 weeks, then died, then i got a (don't remember the specific kind) barb and 2 scissortail tetras. the 3 zebras, barb, and scissortails lived happily and merrily until a couple of months ago, when i got a pleco which died and gave me my first ick plague, killing all but my barb. this is why i'm so worried about hardiness. i don't think that i've done anything wrong that killed the fish, maybe high tank temps and sunlight, but the 20-gal is in a better spot.

i was pretty happy with all my fish, but i'd like more mid-tank and bottom activity.

also, if you have any opinion on what is killing my fish, please tell! ask me Qs and I'll get back w/ you on that 1

[Holly9937]

Losing that many fish would make me think something is going on. You probably want to get that under control before you buy fish/set up a new tank, just to save you the money and trouble, if for no other reason! On the tank you have problems with and if you already have the 20g set up, can you list your ph, amonia, nitrite, nitrate and temperature? Also, FYI, most plecos will get too large for a 20 gallon tank, otos would make a good choice for algae eaters

[attiladahun]

i did some research, and i found out a lot, but i still have some questions:

do you really need 50 gallons for an angel?

do you really need salt for mollies and swords?

do cardinal and neon tetras really need a dark tank?

can you put schooling fish in groups of 2 or three?

do plecos really need something other than algae to eat?

can you put neon and cardinal tetras with larger fish? say and angel? or tiger barb?

do plecos (pl*cos) really need driftwood, etc. to survive?

will salt for the mollies and swords hurt the other fish?


the fish profiles sound pretty liberal on care for even the hardiest fish, i just want a reality check.


PS, how does a 20 gal sound w/ a small (5) school of zebra danios (i want them to start the tank cycle) , some mollies, some platies, some swords, a small school of cardinal tetras, a tank-cleaning or algae eating species, and a few tiger barbs or an angel?

[attiladahun]

On the tank you have problems with and if you already have the 20g set up, can you list your ph, amonia, nitrite, nitrate and temperature?

i have a thermometer in the problem tank, it stays between 75 and 81 during most of the year.

i get my ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite tested periodically at my local pet store, it's always fine as long as i've done a water change lately.

the pet store doesn't test for ph, i don't know how, and i don't want to spend a truckload of money for a kit, and i don't know what to do if the ph is out of whack. since the pet store didn't offer ph testing, i never thought that it was a big deal. i guess i'll try to get my hands on a bit of ph paper, although i'm not for sure this is the problem.

[Kasakato]

i did some research, and i found out a lot, but i still have some questions:

do you really need 50 gallons for an angel?
No, a 30g will do. But the bigger the better.

do you really need salt for mollies and swords?
No, but salt is better for them.

do cardinal and neon tetras really need a dark tank?
No

can you put schooling fish in groups of 2 or three?
Depends on the fish, most schools should be 4+

do plecos really need something other than algae to eat?
Need: no. But I toss in an alage wafer every few days, just to make sure it gets it food.

can you put neon and cardinal tetras with larger fish? say and angel? or tiger barb?
Yes.

do plecos (pl*cos) really need driftwood, etc. to survive?
Depends on the type of pleco. But all fish would like some kind of decor.

will salt for the mollies and swords hurt the other fish?
They wont like it. And theres no need for it.

the fish profiles sound pretty liberal on care for even the hardiest fish, i just want a reality check.


PS, how does a 20 gal sound w/ a small (5) school of zebra danios (i want them to start the tank cycle) , some mollies, some platies, some swords, a small school of cardinal tetras, a tank-cleaning or algae eating species, and a few tiger barbs or an angel?

How about:
4 Danios
3 Platies
? Sowards
9 Cardinals

And please dont to a fishy cycle. Read up on "fishless cycling". Its much more human, and better for everyone.

[Holly9937]

the tank set up sounds alright, but I would skip the angels and the barbs. I think angels need a larger tank and different water conditions than your average community fish. The barbs will need a bigger school than you will have room for, in order to keep them from really harrassing/harming your other fish.

Have you read the cycling sticky? Doing a fishy cycle is a BIG headache (think multiple water changes daily for weeks, if you want the fish to live!)and it is really much easier to do a fishless cycle. Then you can spend that time continuing your research!!

What about those numbers so that we can figure out what might have been wrong with the tank before you get more fish? I am going to guess that it was just not cycled. Add up all the money you wasted on buying fish that died because the tank was not cycled. You can avoid that with the fishless cycle, I really recommend it! Unless you're rich of course...

As for the questions
-Yes, some angels need alot of water, and abover average water condtions
-You don't need salt for mollies or swords, but if that was all you kept, you could do a brackish set up just for them and they might be a little better off.
-cardinals and neons do not need a "dark" tank, but they might prefer certain lighting, worth looking into, especially if it helps bring their colors out.
-You can put a goldfish in a 2 gallon tank, but its really not good, neither is a group of 2 or 3 for schooling fish, but this also depends on the fish in particular. I would say 3 is the very bare minimum 6 plus is much better.
-yes plecos need more than algae to eat, in fact many of them when they get bigger/older (and alot of them get BIG, like a foot or more) do not eat algae any longer AT ALL, or at least not enough to keep your tank clean.
-You can put neons with larger fish, depending on what larger fish you refer to, angels might not be a good idea, barbs, I'm not sure
-not all plecos need driftwood, but it is certainly helpful and good for them
-salt can hurt some fish

It sounds like you have alot of questions, your time might be well spent researching while you do a fishless cycle!! Just a friendly suggestion!! Keep reading!@

[Holly9937]

Just read your last post while I was typing!! Your amonia and nitrite should always be 0. If anything, you really need a test kit for those two things. I would not buy any other fish or tank items until you have those two test kits. A day or two in high levels of either will very likely KILL the fish. They are very toxic. Buy those and do the fishless cycle. If not, you will end up wasting money on fish that end up dying that could have been spent on those items anyway! It will make keeping the fish and understanding what is going on and how to fix it much easier!! Plus, people on here will not really be able to help when you post "help, my fish are dying, diseased, etc." and you cannot list those numbers.

[zazz]

The tank is too small for angels, anyway.
I'd leave room for some cory's on the bottom. Or maybe dwarf corys which I hear leave the bottom for the middle.
Definitely go ahead and get test kits. You'll really want ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. ph is very useful also, but those three are minimun basic requirement.The ones with test tubes and drops last a good long time.
Definitely do a fishless cycle. Have you found the sticky on that?
think you've got a handle on it?
As Holly said, the ammonia and nitrite levels need to always be at zero.
the nitrogen cycle should take care of that. Not water changes. nitrates ( and other things we dont measure) will accumulate over time and need to be taken out with water changes.

tank, it stays between 75 and 81 during most of the year.
I'm curious what it does the rest of the year. That wouldn't be 81 in the day, 75 at night, or anything like that, would it?
Your fish losses could very well have been from ammonia or nitrite toxicity. Or other ailments could have actually knocked down the fish after the toxins weekenned them
Fishless cycle is the way for you to go IMO. It means some weeks without fish in your tank. you seem to have patience. Take the time to work out the perfect stocking plan and then, when the day comes... Instant community!(more or less ) :)

[attiladahun]

how often should i test each characteristic of the water?

should i trust the pet store's ammonia, nitrate and nitrite testing?

should i get a ph testing kit?


ps. the guy at the pet store who tested my water said my nitrate/nitrite/ammonia levels were fine, but my water temp does fluctuate a couple of degrees during the day, but the room i have the tanks in is subject to temp swings, but i don't know how to control temperature any more than i already do (i have a hood and heater)

pps. you guys' help and advice is much appreciated

[Kasakato]

It shouldent change that much if you have a heater. What kind is it?

You should test every week, when you do a water change.

Pet stores are "OK". But they are know to lie.

Fine?! That dose not tell you a lot. You need numbers!

Buy your own kit. You need:
ammoina
nitrite
nitrate
pH
at the bare min.

[zazz]

Only, you'll test differently while the tank is getting cycled.

[Holly9937]

You can usually trust the LFS on what readings they give you, but I would ask them for EXACT numbers and write them down. They might tell you fine when you still have amonia or nitrite because there is only a little bit, when really it should always be 0 (after the tank is cycled). While you are cycling the tank you could really hold off on the ph test kit. Then again, alot of times a master test kit is cheaper than buying each seperately. I don't usually recommend the chain stores, but go to a petsmart of petco if you have one, there test kit will usually be cheaper than a small local store.

[attiladahun]

the lfs and most fish books i've read say to do partial water changes every month, not week, which is what i've been doing. (25% every month) should i start changing every week? every source says something different as far as these changes.

another q:
i read up on fishless cycling, and they say to introduce ammonia and other tank's gunk that has the bacteria in it. where do you get this pure, granulated ammonia for starting the cycle?

yet another q:
will using the "ammonia fighting crystals" in the filter screw up the ammonia cycle?

ps. i'll see if i can get a test kit.

[Holly9937]

The size and frequency of water changes will depend somewhat on how many and the size of the fish you have. But in general (once the tank is cycled) I think 10-20% a week is adequate, for a normally stocked tank. But if its a smaller tank, doing a larger water change really won't be more work, so go for it... If you were to do a fishy cycle, you would need to change the water probably once a day, if not more, for many weeks, probably anywhere from 25-75%. If you were doing only 25% a month before and the tank was not cycled, that is almost certainly why the fish died, amonia and nitrite would have been VERY high.
You might be able to get the amonia at a larger grocery or chain store of some sort, I'm not positive. I myself have never done a proper cycle (which is why I know what a headache it is!! I was sooo happy to find this board so I could find out the lists of things I had been doing wrong!)

And I am pretty sure that such crystals would screw up the cycle. What are they anyway? Filter media of some kind?

[attiladahun]

i just bought the ammonia fighting crystals because the blend of them with carbon was the cheapest. this stuff was meant to be used as a filter media, and says on the ad's and label that the stuff was "ideal for beginning tanks" though, that probably means in a fishy cycle. i wouldn't put the stuff in the filter until the fishless cycle was done and i had fish in the tank.

i just got the electronic equipment in the 20-gal working today, all i need to do is cycle and add decor.

[Holly9937]

That stuff would probably screw up a fishless cycle. If you were to use it and do a fishy cycle, it might help keep the amonia down, but it will still not eliminate it, and it would do nothing to eliminate the nitrite, which is also very toxic to the fish. Just a tip, since I know you are trying to save money and are limited on cash, carbon is not really necessary in your filter unless you are trying to clean out medications or something. All I use in most of mine are sponges, and I know alot of people use filter floss (stringy, pillow stuffing like stuff, I've seen it at the bigger chain stores). You hardly ever have to replace the stuff, all you do is get a pitcher of tank water (tap water would kill the bacteria you have living in your media) and swish them around in it and put them back in the filter.