Chemistry question

Most water dechlors that remove chloramine break the bond between the chlorine and the ammoina. The ammoina that is left there, bnormaly is de toxifed by something else in the de chlor. If there is no product to remove the ammoina, then yes, the bacteria will break it down.

The labeling of some conditioners, while technically correct, are incomplete. They lie by omission (not telling you everything you need to know) rather than commission (actively lying). Chlorine is relatively easily neutralized. Chloramines are more difficult as they are a combination of chlorine and ammonia. Some of the conditioners say that they destroy chloramines (and they do, as they break the chlorine-ammonia bond) and they neutralize chlorine (convert it to harmless chloride). Many of these neglect to tell you that they ignore and do not affect the ammonia released when the bond is broken. So if you use these, you are okay on chlorine, but are exposing your fish to up to 1-3pppm ammonia, which can be a huge problem. The safe conditioners should say that they destroy the chloramines, and neutralize both the freed chlorine and the freed ammonia. If yours does not mention both ammonia and chlorine, it may not be doing all the required jobs. Conditioners such as Prime and Amquel do all the needed jobs, and specify that they neutralize both chlorine and ammonia.

Holly9937 said:

I've seen this come up alot lately, so I just want to understand better.... Assuming you have chloramine in your water and you use a water conditioner that says it removes/neutralizes chloramine. I've read some posts lately that say this still leaves amonia in your water.

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This all depends upon the brand of dechlorinator you are using. Amquel and Prime are the two brand of dechloriminator I see mentioned most. I have used both with great success. I just prefer Prime. It is super concentrated and pretty cheap from Big Al's. Also, it is made by Seachem and I am showing a little brand loyalty I suppose, because I love their Flourish and Flourish Excel.

Holly said:

If you have an established tank won't the amonia be broken down more or less immediately regardless?

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No. Remember, the bacteria that do this level off after a period. So, let's say you cycle the tank add fish and you have a 10 gallon tank stable for 10 fish (not an accurate portrayal, obviously, but makes the math easier). The ammonia stays at zero based on the amount of ammonia in the tank regularly from the fish gills, regular overfeeding, etc. Now, you do a 50% water change. You have chloramines. You use something that only breaks the bond between chlorine and ammonia (and even some brands that leave the ammonia still claim to "neutralize" chloramines and legally can because after all, the chloramine is gone, just not the ammonia) and so ammonia is now floating free in your tank. If there are still fish in it, and the amount of feeding and other factors are still the same, then that is more ammonia than your bacterial colonies can handle. Sure, they may get a handle on it in a few days as the colony expands, but it more than they are used to dealing with and so, you have inadvertantly stressed your fish.

Holly said:

Because amonia should and does test 0 in an established tank.

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Correct, but again, for whatever the tank normally produces in a day.

Holly said:

So isn't chloramine somehow harmful in itself and the conditioners that take care of it solve that problem?

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Yes. Chloramines are dangerous to fish in themselves. So are its components of ammonia and chlorine. So, both issues need to be addressed. The nice thing about a good dechloriminator is that they render ammonia into ammonium which is less harmful to fish and readily avilable as food for plants and the beneficial bacteria.

Holly said:

I hope I'm asking this clearly.

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I hope I am answering this clearly as well.

Holly said:

(I'm not having any problems myself, I don't know if I have chloramine in my tap or not, I use something that claims to neutralize chlorine and chloramine, and I my amonia readings are always 0, in case anyone wonders)

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It's alsways best, in my opinion, to call your municipal water supply and simply ask them if they use chloramines and or ammonia. Some add ammonia and chlorine which readily bonds. Also, I have heard that even in towns where chloramines or ammonia are not used that sometimes during periods of rain that ammonia gets rinsed into the water table from various sources and sinec chlorine and ammonia readily form the bond when given the chance, it naturally bonds with the chlorine they add to your drinking water. Finally, when I contacted my Municipal water company they said more and more places are switching to chloramines because of how effective and "safe" it is for us humans. If you have a chance, check your dechlorinator and see what the main ingredient is. Check online if you need to, or hey, simply tell us which brand and maybe someone will actually know off hand. I hope this helps and maybe clarifies some things for you.

EDIT: Oh Sure, RTR posts while I am typing this monster... Feh! Also, I forgot to mention that some test kits are not set up to detect ammonia vs. ammonium, so if you are using a dechloriminator, make sure you have a test kit that can handle it. You want a salycilate (I am sure I am misspelling that) test, not a Nessler based test kit.