Newbie-i think i need help!

[o_cat_o]

i cant believe i didnt know any of this! i just searched the net to find out why my water was turning green so quickly, and discovered that i don't even know how to look after my fish at all!! and id never heard of nitrogen cycling until today! it must be total fluke that my fish have survived so far!
iv had 2 black moors for just over 2 years, they are currently in a 9g tank, along with 2 little algea eaters (i dont know what breed they are, how bad is that.....hong kong somethings......).
i have an air stine and a filter (an interpet pico). theres about 1-2cm of gravel on the bottom, a large rock thing and 2 plastic plants.
from now on i will def be testing the ammonia and nitrate levels.
but it this tank suitable for my fish? i was lead to believe that black moor dont grow more than 10-15cm, and mine are about 8 and 10cm at the moment, maybe a little bigger.
also, would it be wise to invest in a real plant, and which?
im so glad this site is here!!

*

[Liz]

Well I'm glad you found the site. You can't be taking horrible care of your fish if they are alive after two years. Some people just luck out and manage to overcome things that they don't even know about, I guess.

If you are going to have just a plant or two, that really is personal preference. If you want to get live plants, then I think you will need a bit more substrate. Depending on what plants you get, they can be a hassle to maintain when it comes to fertilizing, lighting, balancing all these different elements without getting algae. However, if you have a moderately to densely planted tank, the plants can help maintain the nitrate levels lower by using the nitrate as food. There are people who have very densely planted tanks who rarely find the need to change the water, as they have a very delicate balance achieved. Personally, I only use live plants in my tanks.

[denali1234]

Hello and welcome to the site.
Actually goldfish are pretty tough and can survive mistakes, like an uncycled tank. Good that you are now aware of it and will keep an eye on it. The two black moors you have can get up to six or eight inches in length, and goldfish produce the most waste of any fish in the hobby. If you have chinese algae eaters, they can grow up to 14 inches!! They will also get very territorial as they get bigger, but are not while they are small. You do have a few issues with the tank:
First, it is overcrowded. You should have at least 15 gallons at the minimum for your goldfish. The algae eaters will need a new home if they get too big. Definitely do not add any more fish.
To give you an idea of how much waste goldfish produce, when I started out I had two fantail goldfish in a ten gallon. I now have a betta imbellis, six neon tetras, three endlers, two platies and two albino cories in the tank. All of these fish produce less waste than the two goldfish did!
My tank does have a lot of fish, but strict maintenance ensures that they are all healthy and happy.
If you want to keep these goldfish in the 9 gallon, you will also need strict maintenance. Get a gravel vacuum and use it twice a week (as a start) and change 30 or 40 percent of the water each time. Monitor nitrate levels and make sure you keep them under 40 ppm or so. This is an indicator of how many water changes you will need. A fast growing plant will help use up some of these nitrates. Check out the forum on plants, there are many to choose from, you could submit a post for an easy fast growing plant and I am sure you would get lots of responses. You may consider getting a bigger tank if you can afford it. A twenty gallon would be perfect, and not really take up much more room than the one you have. The algae eaters will be OK as long as they are small. You will have to find a new home for them eventually. Sometimes they can attach themselves to the goldfish and leave marks, so just keep an eye on that.
Keeping fish in an aquarium than is too small is not ideal, but the situation is what it is and you can do things to better it. Kudos to you for searching out this site, which has a lot of information. If you cannot get another aquarium, remember that strict maintenance is the key, and nothing substitutes that, not even a heavily planted tank. Monitor ammonia and nitrate, and keeps the nitrate levels down. Nitrates measure waste, and if they are too high your fish are swimming in their own septic tank. Just because the water is clear does not make it healthy. I have heard from many people the misconception that their filter is so good they do not need to do water changes (because their water is so clear!). There is no substitute for water changes...ever!
Welcome to the site, hope this was helpful. If you do start a new aquarium for your goldfish, post it here and there are lots of people to help you through the process. I was just like you at one time, and this site helped me enormously. Good luck!

[zazz]

>I agree, congrats on keeping your fish this long. I'd say most people start out not knowing 1/2 of what they "should" know.
> I like live plants. Id also say that they can only help your algea situation ( by using some of the nutrients the algea is enjoying). Java fern can float, although it looks kind of silly that way, or can be anchord into the gravel. It doesnt get its nutrition from those rootlooking things, it just uses them to hang on. You can also grow it on driftwood, or tuck it under the edge of that large rock thing. It doesnt require any extra light, and IME is pretty easy to get along with. I'd suggest it. I also always havelive plants in my tank. i dont do anything special for them.

More importantly, I am afraid Id have to say, I think those fish could really use a larger tank. Look at profiles for info specific to the moors. If You can post a picture of the algea eater someone here may be able to id it.

meantime, yes, get the testkits ( I Like "Aquarium Pharmacueticlas brand. most others her seem to also).

>How often do you vaccuuum the gravel and change some water?

good luck! and im glad you found this site too. i really like these forums

RE "There are people who have very densely planted tanks who rarely find the need to change the water"
While plants can slow the buildup of nitrates in the water, and do other lovely things for the tank, i am sure, They Do not replace partial waterchanges IMO.
I beleive that things will accumulate in the water that the plantscannot remove. Nitrates are Not the only reason for partial water changes.

[zazz]

WOW Denali, you posted while I typed. If I'd seen yours I would have skipped mine! :laugh:
(except to suggest the java fern.)
~ Z

[o_cat_o]

wow! thanks so much for all your help! but this shows how clueless i am, how do you vacuum gravel? and il see if i can find out exactly what kind of algae eters iv got. thanks o much!

[o_cat_o]

ok, i think iv found out what my little algae eaters are, i think they are Pseudogastromyzon*myersi, which is sometimes called a sucker-belly loach or a hong kong pleco. and i gather they wont get any bigger than 3". does anyone know any more bout these, and how i can best care for them?

[denali1234]

http://www.aquaticcritter.com/Freshwater/aquariummaintenance.htm#Gravel%20Vacuuming%20and%2 0Partial%20Water%20Changes

This link will answer questions about gravel vacuuming, as well as other maintenance tips. Glad to hear that your algae eaters only get three inches long.

[Holly9937]

If you would be interested in getting a bigger tank, keep your eye out for used tanks in your local paper, garage sales, and ebay. I've gotten great deals that way :D

[Holly9937]

I was just thinking... Since the tank has never been gravel vacuumed (right?!), you might want to start out with the cleaning/doing better maintenance slowly. Perhaps only vac. half of your gravel or take out 20% or so of the water a week (whichever happens first) for a few weeks. Even though the fish would have better water quality, sometimes the shock of the sudden changes in the water chemistry can be too stressful and kill the fish. I would hate for you to come on here for help and think we've all killed your fish with our advice after you've managed to keep them alive for 2 years. Also, if you can, buy your own test kits or ask the LFS to give you actual numbers for nitire, amonia and nitrate. What is good to some of the workers might not be good, and they just don't know any better! Unfortunately some LFS workers are not all that informed, and your own research is usually better than trusting their advice ("yes, 2 goldfish would be fine in a 9g tank :duh: !!")
Good luck ;)

[happychem]

For me, an aquarium without plants is just a fish tank. However, I suggest that you fist get your tank cycled and the *mystery* of water chemistry sorted out before adding live plants.

Planted tanks are wonderful and it's quite possible to have a low light tank with very little hands on care required (see 18g tank in my sig) and very little algae.

It all comes down to tank set up and maintenance. Your tank is definitely overstocked, and that's a very common newbie mistake so don't feel badly about it.

If you're not ready to get a bigger tank just yet, IMO bigger than 20g for the two moores. I'd recomend finding an lfs or local pond enthusiast who will take the moores off your hands. Then restock with some smaller fish researched from the fish profile databases available here and elsewhere. One tip on using internet resources though is to make sure that you always have more than one so that you can double check. If the info doesn't match (or at least come very close) find another source(s) to confirm or ask here which is correct/more appropriate.

[o_cat_o]

well id been doing about 40% water changes every 2-3 weeks, but no, iv never vacuumed tha gravel. and im looking for a larger tank. hopefully a suitable sized one (somehwere between 15-20g ok?) will come up on ebay within driving distance from me(so i can go pick it up). and tomoro iol be getting my own test kit i hope...about how much do you think a test kit will cost?

[Kasakato]

The test kit is $12.99 at www.bigalsonline.com Click on the "test kits" tab.

Even 20g is a bit small. Something more like 40-50++g would be better.

You will want to be doing twice weekly, 50-75% with gravel vacs. The reason for so much is that goldfish are messy.

[o_cat_o]

really, thats big? i thought black moors didnt get any bigger than about 12cm? lost of people are saying different things....
but yes, they are messy, so il definately be changing the water more regularly.

[Holly9937]

20g is better than what they have now, but 30g would ideally be the minimum 2 goldfish are kept in. The biggest you can get is the best :) It seems like alot of people are selling tanks right now, keep your eyes open!!

[denali1234]

Kas, I have to disagree. Black Moors only get about four to five inches long. A 40 - 50 gallon tank for two goldfish and two algae eaters that get to about three inches??????? That is some overkill. 20 would be just fine. Goldfish are messy, but 10 gallons for each of them is enough for them to live out happy lives. :sim:

[Kasakato]

He, ya I was thinking of the other goldfish tread. But still..the bigger the tank the better. Get the biggest one you can!

[happychem]

It has more to do with waste production than size, cat. Moore's keep small so unlike common goldies they can actually be kept in aquariums, but they need that 15g of water per fish to dilute the waste produced.

It is tank sellin' season though, as people go on vacations or get frustrated with the heat/work involved. Check your local bargain listing and used pet gear listings frequently and be choosy!