phosphate and bba

[basementboy]

:cool: Having a hard time controlling phosphates and bba. PO4 Levels at 5 ppm after two 50% water chages. Beard algae previously killed off 10-12 anubias...and growing on aponogetons, rocks, other plants...Fair amount of plants...12 aponogens, bunch of anubias, some swords and hygrophila although dollars are eating....aponogetons are all sending up seeds so they seem happy.

Added 10 bunches of hornwort which are growing like crazy. Plants seem to be using nitrates, but not the phosphates. Started Adding 25ml leaf zone weekly (...water is soft 1-2 degrees GH/KH, so dont want to add too much)...

.5ppm po4 in tap.

Ordered some Tropica Master Grow, Flourish pottassium, and Seachem equilibrium...Do I need to get my K and N in better ratio in order to get the phosphates used up by plants?

Or use Phos-X or some other resin to get them down into balance?

Also, should I be aerating the surface or not? No CO2 injection.

See alot of advice regarding adding CO2 but not in the budget right now...So how to control without it?


140g freshwater, 30 inches deep
130w compact flourescent - 10 hours per day
no Co2 system
35 fish - silver dollars, rainbows, mollies, platys, swords
Nitrates 10ppm
Phosphates 5ppm

[JosephMCorbett]

Well, first off you have 130w PC for 140g which puts you at 1wpg. You also have no Co2 injection. A low-light/low-tech tank should have at least 2wpg. You can dose with Flourish Excell for carbon, but will be expensive in the long run for a 140g tank. I really would look into setting up a pressurized system. You can do it for about $200.00 or less if you shop around. It's not just for growth, but for balance. If you can get all of your plant life-support within these ranges, Your plants will grow and algae will diminish; Focus on the plants and the algae will go away. Too often people focus on the nutrient that is in excess and causing a problem, rather than providing the proper nutrients at the proper amounts so that nothing is lacking - this will create the proper uptake of all nutrients supplied.

Suggested nutrient measurements for planted tank to control algae:
Lighting 2wpg for 11 to 12 hours per day.
CO2 15-30 ppm.
Macro:
Nitrate (NO3) 5-20 ppm.
Phosphate (PO4) 0.4 to 1.0 ppm.
- maintain phosphates in a close range of 14 to 1 of NO3 to PO4
Potassium 20-30 ppm.
- based on dosing not testable
Micro:
*Dose Flourish or Tropica Master Grow as per recommendation.

One other thing. Is there anything that you are adding to the tank (buffers, fertilizers, etc.) that could be adding to the Phosphates? If not, try to cut back on feedings or fishload and increase water changes/gravel vacs. to get it lowered.

As far as aerating the surface, you are not injecting Co2, so aerate if you want. You only need to concern yourself with this if you are injecting - you don't want to outgass what you just put in.

Seeing as how you only have 1wpg of light and no Co2, I would slow down on all of the ferts - light and Carbon are your limiting factors. You just don't need it and you are feeding the algae. Here is what I would do - I'm going to copy the above and try to tailer it for you and your current system. HTH

Lighting 12 hours per day.
Carbon - dose with Flourish Excel at 1/2 directed.
Macro:
Nitrate (NO3) 5-20 ppm - from fish load.
Phosphate (PO4) 0.4 to 1.0 ppm - from fish load.
- maintain phosphates in a close range of 14 to 1 of NO3 to PO4.
- do whatever it takes to get the right ratio.
Potassium 20-30 ppm - dose with Flourish Potassium at 1/2 as directed.
- based on dosing not (reliably) testable
Micro:
*Get yourself a good quality substrate like Eco-Complete or Flourite for Iron, and rely on water changes to provide micro nutrients (provided it's coming from the tap). Or, if it's RO water use SeaChem Equalibrium.

I would also be doing 50% weekly water changes. This will help you determine how much ferts. are in the tank - you will have at most two weeks worth of dosing in the tank at any one time...very easy to control this way as you are doing weekly resets. Called the Estimative Index by Tom Barr if your interested.

J

[basementboy]

Thanks for the feedback Joseph.

I think my initial problem with the phosphates might have been from using a pH buffer, and perhaps too much food. The food thing is tough because the dollars dont seem to get any food, so I keep feeding until some gets to them or they notice...they nibble on enough of the plants though. So the top feeders are pigging out.

Any suggestions for other low light, fast growing plants that won't get eaten?

Do you have a good online source for cheap, complete Co2 systems. Not interested in DIY. No time.

If I don't add Co2 injection right away, use Excel? Do I have to worry about the aeration? Conflicting info on the web. Fish seem to like it and it is a very deep tank. Corys could probably use the oxygen.

In search of balance given the constraints. Did not realize the PO4 issue until I just got a test kit...50% WC last two weeks has got it down to around 5ppm...Would love to get it to the point where the ratios allow it to be used along with N and K (which is probably lacking) since was not doing any suppliments until recently.

Have pretty good layer of Laterite under the gravel. 10 pounds or so.

Not too far off from your recommendations if I can just get the PO4 down, and start dosing the K.

Also, my tap is very soft water 1-2 degrees GH/KH. Will use Equilibrium to get the baseline (and add K in the process). Some of the rainbows have been sluggish, which might be due to the water softness.

[JosephMCorbett]

No problem. Yes, definately, if you were using a Ph buffer that will make your phosphates skyrocket.

One of the hardest things to get down, is how much to feed your fish. I've learned that you can't keep dumping food in the tank for those that "seem" to not be getting any. The hungrier they get, the more aggressive they will get. If they don't "seem" to get any food one day, don't worry about it; it's ok to feed your fish once every other day - keep this in mind and you'll see that they do get enough food. I feed 3 small portions everyday of a different kind of food each time - dry (flake/pellet), frozen, de-hydrated, as well as fresh vegatables when I feel like it. I know that there is enough food and nobody will go hungry. Sometimes, if I feel like I put too much in...that's it for the rest of the day. I don't care how hungry they look.

Here's a list of relatively low light plants that I've been working on:

Hygrophila
Water Sprite
Water difformis (Hygrophila difformis)
floating hornwort
Java Fern (Microsorum pteropus)
Java Moss
Cabomba (Cabomba caroliniana)
Moneywort (Bacopa Monnieri)
Anacharis (Egeria densa)
Dwarf Anubias (Anubias Nana)
Red:
Alternanthera reineckii - probably the best red plant for beginers
Ludwigia
Hygrophilia difformus or Hygrophilia tropica sunset
Echinodorus (sword plants) - a nice red sword can make a spectacular center piece
Cryptocoryne wendtii
Pearl Weed aka Pearl Grass or Hemianthus micranthemoides

I wouldn't focus on Co2 until you get more light. It's really uncecssary at anything below 2wpg. Actually, you can have a very nice tank of plants with 2wpg and no Co2 at all, however you will have better results. All of the complete Co2 systems I've seen are too much money. www.drsfosterssmith.com has a complete system. When you say you don't want DIY, do you mean that you don't want to buy seperate parts and put it together? This is by far the best way to go. You get better parts and it's cheaper than the all-in-one packages. I picked up a Milwaukee regulator with 2 gauges, bubble counter, needle valve, and solonoid for $80.00 at www.aquaticplants.com. It's a pretty nice and reliable all-in-one unit. Then all you need is a 10lb. (I wouldn't recommend anything smaller for a 140g) Co2 tank that you can get at any welding supply (you can buy your own ($100.00) or put down a deposit and rent ($50.00) ...similar to a keg of beer or propane), a Co2 reactor that you can buy ($60.00) or DIY (lots of plans for these on the net), Co2 line, check valve, and timer. You run the Co2 during lights on and turn it off at night (plants don't photosynth. at night). And that's it.

Yes you can run aeration with Excel...it's liquid carbon, not carbon dioxide.

How deep is your tank by the way. The 2wpg guide is for NO (normal output) flourescents at a depth of about 20". If you go with PC you can figure you have a little more wpg, but if you're deeper than 20" you can figure you have less wpg.

Sounds like your substrate is good.

[RTR]

Big tanks require lower W/gallon than do mid-range tanks, just as very small tanks need more W/gal.

[mrakins]

You don't have to worry about surface agitation with fluorish excel. You only have to worry about things gassing off, excel isn't a gas.

edit: doh, I guess when my internet connection went down, I should've rechecked to see if anybody else had already posted :)

[basementboy]

Thanks again for all the feedback. Glad I registered for this site. Better than endlessly searching on the web for answers....Everyone has a slightly different situation.

30 inches deep. 52 wide. 20 front to back. Acrylic. Around 135-140 gallons I think.

Using compact flourescent 2-65 130w freshwater aqualight with 6700 lights I think... Seems pretty bright to me and some of the fish who hide, but I'm not a plant.

I don't mind assembling the parts for Co2. Will depend on whether I can solve this BBA/phosphate issue or not.

Regarding reducing the PO4. Any opinions on phos reducing resins? Tried Purigen and 3 Poly Filters, but they got used up before making a dent. Water changes did the most to correct. Anyone try Phos-X? ($13 for 64 oz that treats 5000 gallons)...Afraid that it will take too many packages of Phosban or Rowaphos to get this much water fixed... Only need to get it down to get things into balance N-P-K ratios, so the plants will do the rest...

[RTR]

The CO2 will help fight the algae if the plants have enough light and nutrients.

[JosephMCorbett]

Yes, your tank is 135g - (52X30X20)/231.

I don't have any experience with Phosphate reducers, however, someone that I really respect, who is a God when it comes to planted tanks uses Seachems' Purigen. Here is a link to his site: http://www.aquariaplants.com/ - lots of great info.

If it were me, I would keep up with the water changes, monitor Phosphate with Seachem's phosphate kit (most accurate of the hobby grade kits), and bring your Nitrates up to 20ppm to help with the 14/1 ratio. You can dose Nitrates with Potassium Nitrate (KNO3), and it will give you Potassium as a byproduct. You can buy in bulk at www.gregwatson.com and mix yourself using Chucks nutrient calculator at http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

HTH,
J

[basementboy]

That is a great site.

Regarding N-P-K ratios

Nitrate and phosphate easy to test but what about Pottasium?

What percent of K inside the KNo3? And given my soft water, low light and no Co2 injections, should all my dosing be cut in half???

Likewise in the other dosing schemes...any idea how to translate?

Also often see things folks talk about mg per Liter....does that have an equivalent in ppm?

Wish the world would settle on the metric vs std measures...too much math.

Thanks again.

[Mooch28]

Big tanks require lower W/gallon than do mid-range tanks, just as very small tanks need more W/gal.

I never understood that concept. Why is that?

[daveedka]

Nitrate and phosphate easy to test but what about Pottasium?


K test kits pretty much aren't worth the money. However the blessing is that K doesn't seem to contribute to algea issues the way the other macro nutrients do furthermore, you can actually hit some pretty high levels of K without side effectrs so a slight overdose poses no danger.

With all of that in mind most of us dose for ratios after water changes, and just make sure we have plenty in the tank. Chucks calculator is awesome, but IMHO (very humble I might add) It takes a little more K than his calculator reccomends. I dose 24-30 ppm weekly after water changes. If I drop lower on my dosage, my annubias start looking like swiss cheese almost immediatly.


Also often see things folks talk about mg per Liter....does that have an equivalent in ppm

Mg/l and ppm are equivalent fortunately

I don't remember the percentage of K to N in KNO3, but Chuck's calculator shows both nutrients, so what I do is dose KNO3 for N, and figure out how much K that gives me then supplement additional if needed for my target ratio.
dave

[JosephMCorbett]

Dave just about covered it. I'll just hit on a few things.

As Dave said most people just dose for K. Measuring is not accurate and overdosing is not a problem. And back to my earlier post on recommended nutrient levels for best plant growth and subsequently to clear up algae - K at 20ppm is recommended. As I said earlier, if you were doing 50% water changes every week, you are basically resetting the tank every two weeks. So you never run the risk of overdosing and there is little need to test. You know you have at most 2 weeks worth of ferts. in the tank. It's called the Estimative Index...check this out
http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1

As for how that fits into the N-P-K ratio...I forget. I've just seen this countless times to help people clear up algae problems while having their plants flourish:
Nitrate (NO3) 5-20 ppm (5 for red plants, 20 for most).
Phosphate (PO4) 0.4 to 1.0 ppm.
- maintain phosphates in a close range of 14 to 1 of NO3 to PO4
Potassium 20-30 ppm.
- based on dosing not testable

As Dave said, you can use Chuck's calc. to get the K from KNO3 and then just dose K (K2SO4 works good for this) to hit 20ppm.

As far as your particular setup with 1wpg and no pressurized Co2, I would do the following (I know I wrote most of this before, but it can't hurt):
Lighting at least 12 hours per day
CO2 - dose with Flourish Excel as recommended
Macro:
Nitrate (NO3) 5-20 ppm.
- dose with Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
*You need to get your Nitrates up to 20 to bring your ratio closer to 14/1.
Phosphate (PO4) 0.4 to 1.0 ppm.
- maintain phosphates in a close range of 14 to 1 of NO3 to PO4
- dose with KH2PO4 if needed.
*At this point you don't need to dose Phosphate and probably never will with your fish load. You need to be removing it with Seachem Purigen or the like.
Potassium 20-30 ppm.
- based on dosing not testable
- dose with K2SO4
*You could probably get by with what is in KNO3, if not, dose up to 20ppm.
Micro:
- dose with Flourish or Tropica Master Grow as per recommendation.
*You could probably get by with 1/2 of the recommended traces or none at all and just leave it up to your tap water and fish food. I would probably start with none and see how it goes. With low light and no Co2, most people over-fertilize and it's just a recipe for algae. I would use traces and Iron sparingly, get your phosphate down, nitrate up, and dose K to 20ppm.

Also, check this site out. It's another board similar to AquariaCentral, but the planted tank section is phenominal.
http://www.tropicalresources.net

[RTR]

Mooch - the rules of thumb were set from, and most folks on the web are running, tanks 15-75 gallons. The crude guesstimates work fine there, or as well as they ever work. But for smaller and larger tanks, they do not work well at all. Small tanks such as 10s need to be way overlighted to get the same effect as lower lighting in more common tank sizes. Big tanks on the other hand need less, and this is seen in artificial light growth of terrestial plants as well - when the illumination area gets large, you no longer have point source (MH, etc.) or line source (fluorescent in its varying formats) lighting, but close to uniform field light (as in cloudy bright days outdoors, or lightly whitewashed greenhouses) which turns out to be more nearly optimum growth.

[Mooch28]

Mooch - the rules of thumb were set from, and most folks on the web are running, tanks 15-75 gallons. The crude guesstimates work fine there, or as well as they ever work. But for smaller and larger tanks, they do not work well at all. Small tanks such as 10s need to be way overlighted to get the same effect as lower lighting in more common tank sizes. Big tanks on the other hand need less, and this is seen in artificial light growth of terrestial plants as well - when the illumination area gets large, you no longer have point source (MH, etc.) or line source (fluorescent in its varying formats) lighting, but close to uniform field light (as in cloudy bright days outdoors, or lightly whitewashed greenhouses) which turns out to be more nearly optimum growth.

I see, thanks.

It's funny you say that though, because in my 72 gallon, i could grow very few plants with 1.5 watts per gallon of lighting, however, those same plants are growing very decent in my ten gallon hospital tank, with 30 watts of incandescent lighting. Of course, they are growing much better in my 72 with 3.7 watts per gallon and C02 injection now, but i was surprised to see them doing so well in the ten, despite the "smaller the tank, the more lighting" rule of thumb.

[basementboy]

thanks again to all for taking time to reply...just got a box from Big Als, so got to get to work... :cool: