Hello, I'm new and have a few questions...

[janderson]

Here is the current scenario:

My 8 year old "inherited" a no-longer-wanted 2 gallon aquariom with a goldfish from a neighbor who had been successfully killing goldfish for about a year now. (She has now switched to bettas but isn't doing much better) "Goldie" wasn't doing well from the get-go and died after a few days. Of course my kid was in tears, so we bought another one ("Buddy") and promised her that if she did a good job at feeding, cleaning the tank etc. by her birthday Buddy would move into the pond and she'd get a "real" aquarium.

Well, the aforementioned birthday is next month, Buddy is alive & well and has grown quite a bit, so it's time for him to move and time to decide on new equipment and new fish. So I started to do some research and realized that in order for new fish to be introduced to the family by late August, we need to start Cycling right about now. I went out to look at several LFS - if possible I try to avoid big chain stores - and asked for some advice. And this is precisely where my problem starts.

The few things I think I have already learned from books and this site among others are:
a) freshwater is easier (as in not-quite-as-much-patience-needed)
b) the new tank needs to be at least a 20G
c) we'd like a community and
d) the fish on top of my kid's wish list (she calls it a needle fish, I think it's called a tiger barb?) is an aggressive species and is not an option

Great, every store clerk/owner agrees. But with the questions I haven't figured out yet, I get completely contradictory answers: :help:

1) 6-week fishy cycling vs. 3 week non-fishy (from what I read here, I don't like the fishy deal - actually I was very surprised to hear that advice from a small shop owner)
2) live plants vs. plastic (ties in with cycling)
3) bio-wheel filters vs. external (I'm in Colorado Springs and supposedly the bio-wheel setup doesn't work at this elevation?)
4) 20G is great for starters vs. 30G much better for only $20 more (true or just a sales pitch?)
HELP!!!

Also, is there a recommended starter setup somewhere on this site? As in how many fish per tank, what species are recommended together and in what numbers? I looked but couldn't find one. I know that ther are a myriad answers to this questions, but I'm trying to come up with a sample shopping list, so I can just take my kid to the store, and tell her to pick x amount of fish A, y amount of fish B etc.

Thanks so much for any help!

PS: and sorry for the long post!

[norm3000]

1) 6-week fishy cycling vs. 3 week non-fishy (from what I read here, I don't like the fishy deal - actually I was very surprised to hear that advice from a small shop owner)
2) live plants vs. plastic (ties in with cycling)
3) bio-wheel filters vs. external (I'm in Colorado Springs and supposedly the bio-wheel setup doesn't work at this elevation?)
4) 20G is great for starters vs. 30G much better for only $20 more (true or just a sales pitch?)
HELP!!!


1) Definately go fishless, no chance of killing any fish and it will go faster.

2) I love planted tanks but be prepared for much more $$ when going planted. You'll need 2 watts/gallon of plant light (not regular florescents) minimum for a planted tank, 4 wpg is ideal but probably only recommended if you're adding CO2. To do plants really well, you'll also need to add CO2 and trace minerals such as iron, especially if you're get up to 4wpg of light. You'll find lots of info on the web for DIY CO2 setups. Flourite gravel is good for trace minerals and fertilizer helps too.

3) Bio-wheel doesn't work at particular elevations? That's new to me, doesn't mean it isn't true tho. If you're going to go planted then you're best having a filter that doesn't break the surface of the water. Surface agitation will cause the CO2 in the tank to escape (if you're injecting CO2). Canister would be ideal but again more expensive.

4) Bigger is always better but of course more expensive, and not just for the tank.

You can always start small and grow from there. If you get hooked like the rest of us you'll be buying a 55 Gallon tank, injected CO2 and PC lights in no time :)

[greendeltatke]

I think you are approaching this hobby in a very smart way-and your patience will be rewarded!

There are alot of very knowledgable people on this forum who will be happy to help you. From my personal experience with kids and fish I have a few thoughts that might help.

1. Kids like fish that they can tell apart and name. You can get livebearers like guppies, mollies and platties in different color strains. These fish won't care if their buddies are different colors.

2. Kids don't like it when their fish pick on each other. If someone describes a fish as semi-aggressive, you can believe them! If you do get livebearers get all female or a 1:3 male/female ratio (and expect fry).

[bdobosz]

1) I would recommend going fishless as well. Its not very exciting waiting for the tank to cycle but its better then scooping out dead fish too.
2) If you are pretty new to fish/aquariums I would get fake plants to start out. Just my opinion, but when I first started I jumped into real plants early on and they ended up getting either eaten, knocked out of place by large fish, or leaves fell off and were floating around the water. I would maybe think of real plants as a phase 2 of your set-up,
3) I personally have never heard of that
4) I feel like the Wal-Mart ambassador because I always recommend it, but they offer a nice 32 and 55 gallon setup with all the basic equipment. As time goes by you can upgrade the filtration etc as you see fit.

[MacDoc]

[QUOTE=bdobosz]1)
2) If you are pretty new to fish/aquariums I would get fake plants to start out. Just my opinion, but when I first started I jumped into real plants early on and they ended up getting either eaten, knocked out of place by large fish, or leaves fell off and were floating around the water. I would maybe think of real plants as a phase 2 of your set-up,


Just another thought, If you decide to go with fake plants, I would still invest in a good substrate (such as, Flourite). This will leave you the option of switching to live plants at a later date without having to replace gravel in a running tank. (Speaking from experience...wasn't fun)...Good luck! :dance2:

[janderson]

First of all, thanks for the replies. We decided to take the advice about getting fake plants and going with a fishless cycle. Since that means waiting for a few weeks for the fish, we decided to get started: We went to a few more LFS yesterday and ended up coming home with a used 20G tank complete with stand, filter, pump, heater, gravel and a few fake plants. Also got about 1/2 gallon of "starter culture" from one of the store's tanks. Yes, I understand there's a risk of bringing home diseases/parasites as well, but we decided to trust the place. I guess I'll be posting if anything goes wrong... ;)

Last night we assembled everything, filled the tank, de-chlorinated the water, added the culture and have now officially started to cycle our first "serious" tank. This morning I picked up a test kit and am now about to leave to pick up some ammonia and get started in earnest. (Finding ammonia was trickier than I thought, after unsuccessfully scouting several paces I had to go home and start calling around. Finally found an Ace store that carries it)

I'll keep you updated...

[reiverix]

This is great reading a post from someone who has really done their research on how to start up. I predict you will end up getting a bigger tank in the future.

Don't be shy of going with live plants though. There's some really nice and easy to keep species.

[greendeltatke]

Another kid-related idea for you- Cut out a sheet of paper for the tank background and let your kid decorate it. We use kraft paper for our aquatic newt tank. It gets splashed, but dries pretty quickly.

[janderson]

well, we tested the water last night and the results were as follows:

PH: 7.2 (that's fine, right?)
NH3/4: 1.5
NO2: 0.2
(didn't test for NO3 yet)

I'm assuming that the existing levels of NH3/4 and NO2 are resulting from the "Starter Culture" we got from the LFS.

To bring the ammonia levels up to the 3-5 ppm suggested for fishless cycling, I added 10 drops of ammonia and after 30 minutes the NH2/4 read 4 ppm, so I left it at that. If I understand the "fishless cycling" articles correctly, I will continue to test the water every evening and if necessary I'll add minute amounts of ammonia to bring the level back to the 4 ppm target ratio.

I've been reading as much about fishless cycling as I can find online, and I'm still not completely sure I understand it. Here is how I explained it to my kid, please tell me if I'm wrong:

While we will be bringing the ammonia level back up to about 4 ppm every evening, when we test for it just before adding anything the level shown should be getting consistently lower over the course of the cycle, indicating that the bacteria are multiplying and therefore consuming more ammonia per day. NO2 and NO3 levels will likewise be fluctuating in a more or less predictable pattern. Once the test results before adding new ammonia read 0-0-0 (for ammonia, nitrate and nitrite) for a few days in a row we will be able to add fish to the tank - that's how it's supposed to work, right?

Thanks for all your help! :hi:

[mishi8]

The starter culture/water from the LFS should have had a reading of 0 NH3 and 0 NO2 and some level of nitrate (because their cycle is well established). The purpose of the starter culture is to add the beneficial bacteria to your tank...hard to say if there was much bacteria in it. However, you very well may have NH3 in your tap water (from chloramine)...something to keep in mind for future water changes. Test your tap water to make sure.

When fishless cycling, once you start getting NO2 readings, you only want to add 1/2 of the original dose of ammonia. Otherwise you'll end up adding too much ammonia over time, and may stall the cycle.

When the cycle is established, you'll have 0 NH3, 0 NO2 and some NO3. Due to the large amount of ammonia used in fishless cycling, the NO3 levels will be very high. You will then need to do a large water change to bring the NO3 below 20ppm before adding fish.

[aknif]

My 2-cents! :)

I live in Denver and I've always had Bio-wheels. I have no idea why altitude would have anything to do with them! I currently have 2 Emperor 400's on my 125g and they have a lovely layer of slime on the bio-wheels and my fish are happy.... so.... ;)

I also have all fake plants. For me, the hobby is about the fish. I enjoy caring for and maintaining the fish and that's enough for me. While I understand that live plants can be a great benefit to an aquarium, I just don't want to do the extra lighting, co2, fertilizers and all that extra stuff that goes along with them!

Bigger is better as far as I'm concerned too! (Of course, I mean in fishtanks only! Right? ;) ) It's much more difficult to keep a 5 or 10 gallon in line than it is a 30 gallon or more... and besides, once you get into it, you're just going to want more fish and bigger tanks anyway! Welcome to the joys of MTS! (Multiple Tank Syndrome!) LOL

I honestly have never done a fishless cycle because I never knew there was such a thing! All my tanks were set up with the "add just a few fish at a time and keep up with frequent water changes for the first 2 months" method. I do plan to do a fishless cycle on my new 135g when I get it set up, but it seems you're on track with your understanding! I know there is a great sticky on fishless cycling on this forum too, if you haven't already read it!

Good luck! And welcome to the hobby!

Amy

[happychem]

Just a few points to add.

Filters:
Biowheels should work fine, I think that the "logic" is that the air is thinner, but if that was an issue then all filters would have the same O2 shortage.

But, if you can afford the initial outlay for a cannister filter, do so. While HOB filters are absolutely fine, cannisters are better still, plus they're easier to maintain.

You don't need carbon or anything other than foam, wool, or bio-balls (or whatever equivalent bio-max filter media).

Plants:
You don't need an especially expensive setup. You can grow crypts, anubia, java moss, and java fern with about 1wpg. They grow very slowly, but so does the algae.

You don't need a special substrate either, especially not for a low light regime. I'm currently having excellent success growing java moss, fern, some crypts and anubia in an 18g tank, probably about 15g or less of water, (see crappy pic. in sig.) under 15w of fluo light (PowerGlo bulb) with #3 pool filter sand as the substrate. Substrates like Fluorite are excellent options for fast growth tanks, but a waste of money in low light tanks, JMO.

Once you get your tank set up with fish and such, I definitely recomend looking into some of the above mentioned plant species. I would also suggest using a finer substrate (like #2 or #3 pool filter/sand blasting sand) it's very cheap - I got 40kg for free from the quarry, otherwise it's about $5-$10 per 20kg bag. Rinse it thoroughly and lay down a light dusting. When it comes time to plant, add enough to make about a 2-3" layer.

Tank size:
A moot point since you've bought the tank, but yes, bigger is better. However, very large tanks, like the 100+ gallon sizes do present their own challenges.

Cycling:
To speed up your cycle, offer to buy one of the filter sponges from one of the lfs' filter. Most of the beneficial bacteria is on the filter media, not in the water. Ask the manager, or someone who can make the call, if you can buy an equivalent sized filter sponge (if it's an AquaClear filter, for example) from them at retail price and exchange if for one of their old ones. It's a fair request, makes them money, and should more or less instantly cycle your tank.

When your cycle is finished you should be able to dose ammonia to 5ppm and in 24 hours read NH3=0ppm, NO2=0ppm, NO3=something. You will need to do a massive water change as mishi suggested.

Stocking:
A 20g tank is pretty small when it comes to stocking. From a child's standpoint I'd avoid livebearers like swortails, mollies, and guppies. They breed like mad and you'll have to find something to do with the babies, or just let the parents eat them, neither likely palateable to a youngster.

Try to get one mid-top level species and have a decent school. I understand that a child may prefer a fish that it can name/identify, but just from the standpoint of aesthetics a tank with a decent stocking level of a good number of fish per species looks better and behaves more naturally then one with one or two fish of several species. You could do tiger barbs if you wanted. A school of 6 or so would keep the aggression mostly to each other.

My own taste, what I would do in other words, would be about 8 cardinal tetras and 3-4 kuhli loaches (if you have the fine substrate) if not, go with 4 pygmy cories.

Maintenance:
Easy. Change 50% of the water weekly. Monitor NO3 to make sure it stays below 20ppm and you're set.

[zazz]

As I recall (it's been a while) the ammonia levels didn't behave in quite such an orderly fashion. Other than that, and what Mishi said. It sounds like you have the idea.
About live plants:
All that stuff (special lighting,co2, fertilizers...) is NOT necessary in order to have a few simple Live plants in your aquarium.
Low Light plants have always done just fine for me (and others) with no special attention whatsoever.
Jave fern, java moss. There are a few other stanbys but I dont remember the names.
BIo-diversity, :cool2: and a more natural environment :dance:
If you are doing a fantasy type tank, like a blacklight amusement park theme or something, then, I can see going with artificial plant. There is awoman here designing a black and white themed tank that of course uses artificial plants...
But PLease don't think that the only choice is a highly involved 'planted tank' or all fake plants.
Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
~Z

[janderson]

(by the way, did anyone else have trouble getting Aquaria Central to come up yesterday afternoon/evening? I was soo frustrated, especially since I couldn't find any other comparable site out there - I love this place!)

Well, we went to the LFS yesterday afternoon and got the rest of the tank decorations: my daughter had a certain sample tank from one of the how-to books in mind, so we now have a piece of (fake) driftwood, a small rock (from the yard, scrubbed and then boiled for 15 min) and several fake plants in the tank complate with a plant-themed backdrop - she loves it. :dance: Real plants may be in the future, but for now I think we're doing fine.

Thanks for the tip on testing our tap water for NH3, I'll do that tonight. Dummy me, I never even thought about doing that. Oh well, at least there aren't any fish yet to suffer from my ignorance. Yesterday evening the test results were as follows:

NH3/4: 2 (so we added a few more drops of ammonia)
N02: 2
No3: 20

On stocking the tank, we made a list of the fish my daughter liked at the LFS that don't get too big, now we just have to come up with a stocking plan that will include some of her choices:

Tiger Barb / Albino Tiger Barb
Yoyo Loach
Red Tailed Shark (gets too big, though, right? She just really liked him.)
Mollies (Dalmatian/Creamsicle)
Glass Fish
Tetras
Zebra Danios
Cories
yellow mystery snail
(and absolutely NO Beta)

Thanks for all your help!!

PS: I think I'm getting "infected", too - I found myself walking around the house with a measuring tape this morning, trying to figure out where to put a larger tank for me. ;) Hubby's going to kill me...

[Holly9937]

For your fish ideas, the tiger barbs can be a little nippy, so if you wanted them, you might consider only getting a school of them and some corys. The red tail and yo you loaches I would skip. Both get a little big 4-6" and the red tail can get aggressive with age/size/too small of a tank. The mollies are pretty, but you might run into the fry problem if you don't get all of one sex, or as mentioned before, you can just let them be eaten. Maybe I'm not very observant, but I never notice when my platys have babies, and I never see the fry, except for the occasional tough one that survives. There are all kinds of tetras, they are always fun. The zebras are really active fish from what I understand, so the kids might like that. Corys are always fun too. Very cute, just stick to one kind of cory, they seem to only like to school with their own kind. I would get at least 3 of them. If you only get one snail, I think those kind can't breed with themselves, so you would be safe :rolleyes: !!

[happychem]

As long as you're being the ideal newbie...

Phone or e-mail your water company and ask for the annual water quality report. It should contain their measurements of water parameters like pH, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium levels, etc. All sorts of good stuff to know. Keep in mind that these are annual averages and will likely fluctuate throughout the year, but it will nonetheless give you a good idea of what to expect in your water.

Also ask them if they treat with chloramine or just chlorine. If they use chloramine, invest in a good water conditioner, like Prime or Amquel (there are others as well), which not only breaks the chlorine-ammonia bond, but also "neutralizes" ammonia. If they just use chlorine then just buy the cheapest dechlorinator you can find. ;)

Snails are a great idea. They increase the bio-diversity of the tank and clean up wastes that fish won't touch, like some algaes. Snails, contrary to popular belief, do not breed without limit. They, like all other living beings, are limited by the amount of food available. If you notice a big outbreak of snails, it means you're feeding too much. Snail populations are easy to control through feeding: want more snails, feed a little heavier; want less, feed less. Simple.

Echo Holly on no RTBS or Yoyo loach.

[janderson]

PH: 7.4 (that's still within the 7.5 upper limit, but should I bring it down a bit?)
NH3/4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0

why the tank tested 1.5 for NH3/4 and 0.2 for NO2 after the initial setup, I have no idea. I wonder what exactly was in the bag I got from the LFS :confused:

Anyway, results tonight were NH3/4: 2, NO2: 3 and NO3: 20 so I guess I'm still on track.

And about the stocking question - we went to yet another LFS store tonight and talked to a very helpful lady. So far this is the store that impressed me the most: very clean, not a dead fish in sight and an owner that patiently explained to an 8 year old which fish would work well in her tank while knowing that we aren't ready yet to actually buy fish. Anyway, their suggested stocking list based on compatability and my daughter's taste is:

1 blue Guarami
2 Variatus (sp?)
2 male Guppies
3 Rasboras
3 Cardinals
1 Siamensis (sp?)
1 Snail
2 Cories

Not exactly my taste - too many different species - but do you guys think this group will work in a 20G? It seems like too many fish, even though most of them are fairly small.

We were also advised to buy the fish in three or four groups spaced about 10-14 days apart to get the bacteria used to the increasing bio load. Makes sense to me, but in which groups and which order should they go in? It seemed not to make a big difference apart from introducing same species fish together.

Thanks for all your help!! :dive2:

[zazz]

It does sound lilke a lot of fish to me too, but thats just some sort of hunch.
I can tell you that once you come to the end of your fishless cycle, you will be able to add a full bioload all at once. One of the benefits of fishless cycling.
Someone else here can tell you more specifically what a full bioload consists of, fishwise.

[mishi8]

That sounds like a lot of fish for a 20 gal to me too, but probably can be done with good tank maintenance. However, when you fishless cycle, you're developing a biofilter that can easily support a full tank of fish. You should be able to introduce all the fish at once. If you stock it slowly, you will lose some of the bacteria (due to having too few fish to feed all the bacteria that grew) and will have to continue to be careful as you introduce new fish and regrow the bacteria.

[greendeltatke]

Here's a question for you since you're contemplating live-bearers- Do you want fry? Will it freak your daughter out to see tiny little fish get eaten by their parents? Or, if the fry do survive in large numbers do you want the hassle of rehousing them?

If you don't want fry you have to get all one sex. IM (limited)E and from reading a lot of posts livebearer males are prone to picking on each other. Not usually to the death, mind you, but you will spend alot of time watching the dominant male chase the others into corners of the tank. If you get all females you might get a set of fry or two, since they will likely come to you pregnant.

[happychem]

pH:
Don't worry about it. A stable pH is more important than a magic number. Measure your KH (alkalinity), this will give you an idea of your pH stability. I wrote quite a bit about both pH and KH in the water chemistry article in the "Top Topics" section at the top of the forums.

Let your tap water sit overnight in a shallow bowl before measuring the pH. Often tap water will be supersaturated in CO2, which decreases pH, so pH will sometimes creep up a bit after degassing.

Your cycle:
You probably got some beneficial bacteria from the water. There are some free floating, that's how they get from one place to the next after all. There are just many, many more in the filter media, so if you got some of that instead of water your tank would cycle faster.

Stocking:
The point of fishless cycling is that you establish a bacterial colony much, much larger than your final stocking load will be able to support. As soon as you add your fish the excess bacteria will die off. As with all living things, their colony size is limited by the amount of food, in this case, NH3.

The stocking advice that you were given is good advice to someone who didn't do a fishless cycle and it's encouraging to see that the shopkeep was more interested in helping you set up your tank in a relatively responsible manner than just selling you a bunch of fish that will die and be replaced. However, I doubt that the folks there are familiar with fishless cycling, it seems to be still somewhat of a novel concept, for whatever reason I can't imagine. :rolleyes:

In any case, once you're done, stock fully.

I don't like that stocking list, it's too manic - too many species and no cohesion. It's also borderline overstocked.

Moreover, both cardinals and rasboras are schooling fish, you'll get much more from them if you have them in groups of 6+.

By siamensis I assume that she means a siamese algae eater. Not a bad idea, but they get big, territorial and stop eating algae. Instead get a few Otocinclus. They're great little guys, diligent soft algae eaters, and not as fragile as reputed. Just make sure that the ones in the store have been there for at least a week, preferably two before you buy them. The symbiotic bacteria in their gut can die in transit to the store, this results in some technically starving, despite an abundance of food, within the first couple weeks of arrival.

From that list, here's my suggestion, others will probably hop in as well:
1 blue gourami
6 rasboras or cardinals
3 Otos
3 Cories

That should give you a pretty full looking tank but still be lightly stocked enough that it's easy to maintain.

[aknif]

Just one quick thought, but should she wait a few months on the Oto's? To let the tank get established for a while, maybe build up a little algae for them to eat?

[happychem]

Shouldn't make much difference. Otos are actually pretty tough after they get over the travelling hump. Besides, the tank should be pretty stable at the end of fishless. True the tank will still need to build a heterotroph comunity in the substrate, but as far as taking care of ammonia goes the filter will never be better prepared than immidiately after the cycle. Otos were the first fish I added to my 33g when I set it up some two years ago.

I'd imagine that there will be a fair amount of brown algae shortly after she stocks the tank, if not she can always just blanch some zucchini or feed some frozen spinach.

[janderson]

but then again, it's not going to be my tank but my kid's. I will however stress the schooling fish thought, bringing it down to a choice between Raspboras or Tetras and up the numbers. Exchanging the Siamese for Otos should be fine, too; my daughter actually didn't pick it for looks, it was suggested as an algae eater. However, according to her we really DO need to have a snail - so would 2 Otos and 1 snail work, too?

this would bring the shopping list to this:

1 blue Guarami
6 Rasboras or Cardinals (or Neons)
2 Otos
3 Cories
1 Snail

From what I've seen/read so far, this should make a nice tank, but... I just cut her list down from eight to five species - is there any way to throw in a 6th variety? :confused: She really wants a tank that's as diverse as possible. Livebearers seem to be out, this tank is supposed to be as peaceful as possible, so two arguing males might not be ideal. And while little fish would be certainly be very welcome, I don't feel up to moving the fry and then trying to figure out what to do with them. Letting them be eaten doesn't seem to be a feasible solution with two very caring kids involved.

About the store's reaction to a fishless cycle, yes, I agree, they didn't quite seem to buy into it. When I told her that the tank was cycling, albeit without fish she seemed visibly sceptical: "How can it cycle without fish?" "Well, I'm adding a few drops of ammonia every day." "Well, I guess that could work..." It's nice to know that once the tank it cycled, we can introduce all the fish at once :D ; thanks for making that clear.

Again, thanks for all the help, I really appreciate your input!

[id10t]

I setup a 10gal tank 2 months ago to get back in the swing of fishkeeping, and to give my daughter (5 next week) something cool to look at that isn't full of the aggressive fish I want to evntually get.

I'm stocked with 2 male guppies, 2 neon tetras (had 6 but suffered thru a death every other day for no apparent reason) and 3 pepperred corys. Nice load for a small tank, I'm thinking about trying to add a couple more neons if they don't die off or maybe one more male guppy.

[happychem]

I don't think that adding a 6th fish type is advisable, but you can easily have 3 Otos and the snail, no need to decrease the number of Otos.

If you want to add some more variety to the tank though, perhaps exchanging the gourami for a few shrimp and increasing the schooling fish size to 8. I'm not advising losing the gourami due to bio-load, just because it will almost assuredly eat the shrimp.

Shrimp are pretty cool critters, there's quite a variety available, they're excellent scavengers, and they can be a lot of fun to watch. The only catch is that you will need to add a little iodide to the tank at water changes. Not much, you can pick up a bottle of "reef iodide" for about $10 and it should last you close to a year I'd guess. Add about 5mL after your weekly 50% water change.

Just one more option that you can pass by "the boss" and see what she thinks. I like the idea because it adds a different type of creature - a different shape, if you will - to the tank.

"Well, I guess that could work..."

Heh :rolleyes: That's not the first time I've heard that reaction. Once I was walking a girl around here through a fishless cycle and her friend who was in charge of the aquariums at a local university (in other words, should know better) gave her the same reaction and instead offered her some disposable goldfish :mad2:

[Holly9937]

I think the stocking list sounds pretty good, and I don't remember if this was mentioned, but I would get the same type of cory, they seem to be partial to their own. And I don't see a problem with the snails, I really like the one I have :D ! If you skipped the gourami to get shrimp, you could get a few fancy male guppys to replace the gourami. Some of them are very pretty, they can't hurt each other (in fact my two seem very fond of each other, never more than a couple of inches apart) and they can't reproduce ;)

[greendeltatke]

I'll second the shrimp idea. We have amano shrimp, also called algae-eating shrimp. They are my kids' favorite creature in the tank. They are bigger and gentler than ghost shrimp and well worth the $4 a piece IMO.

[razorxxx]

tiger barbs are fine but niddle fish might kill the barbs id get cat fish or gouramis or tetras or barb all of them are peaceful fish id get those if i were you

[janderson]

last night's results were NH3/4: 1, NO2: 2, NO3: 40 (that's a guess, the orange rectangles indicating 20, 40 and 80 look all VERY similar to me), so I guess we're right on track. :)

I also checked with our water company and they're only using chlorine - so a simple de-chlorinator should be sufficient for water changes, right? But there was one line in the water report that startled me: "Nitrate (as Nitrogen): 10 ppm" - but when I tested my tap water it showed 0? Different Nitrate? I'm afraid it's been a few years since I last took a chemistry class ;). Should I add anything to remedy that with future water changes?

About the stocking list, the Shrimp didn't make it - she seemed okay with the little ones but then saw a few 3" versions in a neighboring tank that seemed just too creepy to her, so were back to this one:

1 Dwarf Gourami
6 Neons
3 Otos
3 Cories
1 Snail

I'm having a hard time refusing the addition of 2 male guppies, though. After all, so far we've spoken with four LFSs and they're all advocating more fish than we have in the list above. I understand that they make money by selling fish, but it's certainly not making my job any easier... :mad:

(And before any LFS owners/employees out there get mad at me for going to different LFSs just to ask questions: I make it a point to tell them that we're just looking since our tank isn't cycled yet, and if there is any other person walking into the store who needs their help we'll either wait or come back at a more convenient time. Being new to all things "fishy" I'm simply trying to find the store I'm most comfortable with, and that's where I'll buy the fish. By the way, does anyone have a favorite store in Colorado Springs?)

Again, thanks for all the help! :thm: Not that I feel completely comfortable with this new hobby yet, but thanks to your input I'm a lot less confused than I was just a week ago!

[happychem]

Yes, it looks like your cycle's on the right track. Keep at it. If you feel like doing a water change or two now just to get a handle on it or to make your end of cycle water change a little smaller, have at it. Just remember to dechlorinate before (or as) you add the new water. It shouldn't hurt your cycle and is a good exercise in understanding your tank. Of course, remember to re-dose ammonia afterwards. ;)

Don't worry about the 10ppm NO3-N from your water report. If you read the water chemistry article, I discuss the difference in "ppm NO3" and "ppm NO3-N", it's just a molecule vs. mass issue. As I previously posted, their results are an annual average - nitrogen compounds are especially high in the fall, if you have a winter - and they also likely have far better equilpment then you have available for testing. So no, don't worry about it.

Just a simple dechlorinator will do. You can either pick up just a cheap one from Walmart or wherever, or if you can find some sodium thiosulfate you can mix your own (~30g per litre of water, then 1-2 drops per gallon). The thiosulfate route can involve a fairly hefty initial investment, but is much cheaper in the long run.

Stick to your guns on the stocking level. It is possible to put a few more fish in without being overstocked, but a lightly stocked tank is much easier to maintain then an overstocked one. Besides, the fish will be far more active and natural if they have a little room to swim and explore.

Many LFS' are still unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the fishless cycle. They also deal with a fair number of jerks who come in, are given some decent advice, then go somewhere else to buy and setup their personal fish killing machine, so be a little patient with them. It's good to shop around and find the right one and be patient. Very few will advocate light stocking, IME, the one that I frequent does, which I think is awesome, but the manager is a third generation aquarist and all their tanks are planted, which from what I've seen is somewhat uncommon to lfs'.

[janderson]

:thm: Happychem, your advice is much apprciated! :thm:

I'll try to avoid the guppies and therefore the possible overstocking of the 20G.

By the way, why didn't anyone warn me about the addictiveness of aquariums? It's barely been a week since I started tinkering with my kid's 20G, and much to my surprise I've gotten increasingly interested in all things fishy. My S.O. takes my interest in fish and this site as final proof that I'm a geek. Oh well, if it took that long to figure out... but I have to admit, I did find myself measuring wallspace again this morning ;) Luckily I have a finished basement with LOTS of wallspace just waiting for adornment. But for now I would like to start with a small 5-10G with live plants in my kitchen - would that be an appropriate place for some guppies?

[Holly9937]

A 10g tank would be perfect for a few guppys, 5g is a little small, plus usually you can only get the 5g tanks in little plastic kit setups (at least its all I ever see) and the 10g tank is really cheap at meijer etc. (less than 10$), its just the accessories that will cost more. Check out ebay, I've gotten really good deals on there, it seems like everyone is selling their tanks right now :thm:

My husband says that he just hopes I have a good romance going on here to justify all the time I spend typing away :laugh:

[happychem]

I've read that the kitchen is a poor choice of locations because of cooking fumes. Personally, I'm not sold on the danger of them.

However, there is an issue of heat fluctuations. If your kitchen is small and, like mine, heats up a lot when someone's cooking or baking, then your aquarium (especially a small one like a 10g) is going to go through a lot of temperature fluctuations.

But on the upside, for a little 10g tank, there must be lots of places that you can find to sneak it into. ;)

[aknif]

I have a 10 gallon on my kitchen counter, about 2 feet from the sink. Talk about HANDY for water changes!! ;) I have had tanks in my kitchens for years. I do agree with happy chem about the size of your kitchen and the heat when cooking or whatever. I would at least get a 10 gallon though. My 10 gallon is a recent upgrade from a 5 gallon that I had in here and the temp is definately more stable on the 10 gallon.

[janderson]

is that you have a big open space. Of course that also means that you can't lock the burnt toast smell in the kitchen... :p: (I don't think I'll have heat fluctuation problems)

Well, it seems we can get guppies after all - that should make everyone happy! And after I'm done with my little kitchen experiment, there's a spot next to my desk that's just perfect for a 30G... (I think I have a case of MTS coming on :D )

[janderson]

I'm wondering if my cycle is still progressing "normally": for the second day in a row the test results show 0 for ammonia, nitrates are coming down as well(yesterday's test showed 80, today it's 40 again), but nitrites seem to be stuck at 2. Should I do a partial waterchange?

Thanks.

[mishi8]

No need for a partial water change. Odd that nitrates are going down without water changes. I'd give the nitrites a little longer yet, they tend to stay high for a while before finally dropping. Make sure you aren't adding too much ammonia each day (only half the original dose is needed.)

[happychem]

NO3 test kits are finicky, so don't be too concerned if they drift between one colour level and the next. Be sure to really shake that third (or second I think with the AP kits) reagent bottle - the one with the reducing agent otherwise you'll get low readings.

The NO2 stage of cycling is the longest. NO2 nitrifiers both have to rely on NH3 nitrifiers for their food source and there's much less energy available in the conversion of NO2 to NO3 than the conversion of NH3 to NO2, so NO2 nitrifiers are slower growing than NH3 nitrifiers. Keep at it, be patient.

What are the pH and KH of your tank water right now? There's a lot of acidification going on right now - conversion of ammonia to NO2 releases H+, and you're really pushing this reaction right now. Sometimes cycles can "stall" for folks with water with very low alkalinity. The pH drops to the point where the bacterial growth slows or stops.

[janderson]

Well, I guess i just misread the NO3 test yesterday, I'm back to 0 ammonia, 2 nitrite and 80 nitrate - back to the waiting game.

As Happychem suggested, I tested the pH value tonight but I got a higher reading (7.8) then when I started cycling (7.2). I actually did 2 pH tests: the first using the regular pH version, but the color was inconclusive: a light blue without any greenish tint that wasn't on the color chart. When I used the "high pH" version is was the same color as the "7.8" indicator field.

As for kH, I don't know the value. Do I need to buy a separate test kit? But with my pH being on the alkaline side I shouldn't have problem with low kH, right?

This is all getting very confusing... And to think that I always thought fish were easy pets :o

[Larissa]

You can buy tests for kH and gH but I don't know if it's really necessary. Usually if your pH is high then your gH and kH are high too but that's not always the case. When I first started testing my pH I tested the water in the tank and it was at 8.5-9.0 range but the water from my tap was testing at 7.0. I found out later that carbon dioxide in the pipes could lead to a false low reading. I put my tap water in a cup and tested immediately. It was at 7.0, I left the water in the cup for six hours and tested again. Bingo! Water pH was up at 8.5. So my true pH was 8.5. This may not be what's going on for you but that's what happened to me.

[mishi8]

I think it's worth it to get the KH and GH tests. You will find, even with a higher starting pH, that your pH may start dropping quite a bit. Keeping track of your KH will give you more information about what is going on in your tank, and why your pH may be changing. If the pH drops too low during fishless cycling, you can add some buffer (baking soda/sodium bicarbonate) to raise the KH and thus the pH.

[happychem]

A KH test kit is very important if you're to diagnose or understand what's happening with your pH (I'm going to guess that your KH is somewhere between 10-40ppm). GH kits are all but useless for most fish keepers, IMO.

Let your tap water sit out in a shallow bowl overnight before testing as Larissa suggested, test KH while you're at it. You'll know a lot more afterwards. If your pH has dropped 0.6 points while cycling you may need to start thinking about either a water change to replenish the natural buffer or supplementing a little baking soda.

I think that you mentioned that you got your water company's report. Look under "alkalinity", possibly "Alkalinity (as CO3)", this the annual average KH from your tap.

[janderson]

Hey, I'm back!!

does anyone know why the site was down for two weeks? - I frantically tried to get on and after about aweek I all but gave up and started looking at other forums, even though I didn't find another one I really liked. It's sheer luck that I tried again today... I'm so happy!! :clap:

Well, here's the current situation: the tank finished cycling and last Friday we got to go buy some fishies. Otos were out of stock, as were the blue dwarf guaramis, so we ended up coming home with:

7 neons
2 male guppies (to be moved to a different tank once the guarami gets here)
3 cories
1 snail

So far, so good: water parameters are holding steady at ammonia:0, nitrite:0 and nitrate around 5 and everyone seems to be happy.

However, yesterday after school one of the guppies was missing a chunk of his tail - looks like the other one took a bite . Even though I've never observed them fighting or even chasing each other, I figured they're just establishing a pecking order :argue: ; but I did pick up some fin rot medication just in case (preventatively, I don't want the wound to become infected). Well, this morning another piece of tail was missing. And a few minutes ago a got a call from the kid: more tail gone.

What do we do now? Remove the victim to the small quaratine tank we got in preparation for the still-to-be-added otos and guarami to give him a chance to heal? Permanently remove the culprit? Or (as I've heard on a different forum) do we need to add a few more guppies to curb aggression? The final tank setup would then be:

5 male guppies
7 neons
3 otos
3 cories
1 snail

Help!!

[zazz]

welcome back.
If it were me, Id pop him into quarantine and treat with melafix. its gentler than fin rot meds and i jave had very good results with it.
as for a more long term solution, i dont know.
check out general chitchat ( i think... pretty sure thats where the thread was) for info on where Ac went.

[Puffernewbee]

I would suggest you only get 2 otos instead of 3 (should allow you to keep a guppy in the tank). They are very efficient cleaners and a general rule is 10 gallons per oto so they have enough to eat. Since you have a snail (I am guessing a mystery snail) , you have that as an additional algae eater. You may want to get some algae tablets just to make sure they have food to eat. I had 2 oto's in a 29 gallon and I never had an algae problem.

As far as the addiction goes, I started in this hobby 8 months ago with a 10 gallon puffer and a 29 gallon community. Three weeks ago I set up a betta tank and this last weekend I just moved my community to a 72 gallon. The only problem is that my wife will not let me set up the 29 gallon with something new (I wanted to try my luck with a small salt water set-up).

[happychem]

Remove the guppy that you suspect is doing the nipping and keep him on his own for a couple weeks or however long it takes the other to heal, whichever is longer. Also rearrange any decorations you have in the tank - or add some decorations, rock, plants (fake or real, but if you choose fake, spend the extra money on silk not plastic). You'll hear cichlid-types talking about this all the time, it's really a very basic territory issue and happens with many fish. When you return the offender he'll be in a strange place, someone else's territory, so he'll be on his best behaviour.

Stop using the fin rot meds. If he doesn't have fin rot the meds aren't doing anything good, but are potentially harming your tank or contributing to resistance to meds. Melafix or a few drops of tea tree oil will help prevent infection after the initial wounding. After that, good water quality and a safe environment will help him heal. One quote I'm very fond of is "look after your water, the fish will look after themselves".

Adding more guppies will help to spread the aggression over a larger number. Just be sure to reintroduce your offender at the same time as the rest. This should put them all on the same level.

Your final stocking plan looks fine by me. Although I notice that there's no gourami on it, changed your mind? The 1 Oto per 10g is not a territory issue, they like the company of their own, it's more an algae cleaning benchmark. However, one doesn't buy algae eaters because of an algae problem, that's bad fish husbandry, one buys algae eaters to take care of the little bits of algae that grow on a regular basis. You'll likely need to supplement your Otos diet with some blanched zucchini or something of the sort.

[janderson]

Okay, here we go:

On the otos: we're still planning on getting 3. Since the snail gets lettuce/cucumber/zucchini and algae wafers on a regular basis anyway, the otos should find plenty to eat. While the algea eating is a nice side effect, that's not the main reason we'd like them in the tank.

On the guppies: we've had a surprising turn of events: we had to run a few errands last night and upon our return we found a dead guppy. Strange thing is, the missing-a-piece-of-tail one was swimming around happily while the other one was stuck head down in a plant with a nasty bruise on his back between fin and tail. Revenge?

On the meds: missing-a-piece-of-tail's tail looked fine this morning, I swear I can see it healing :dance:: Happychem (so glad to have my private tutor back!!), I trust your advice, so I'll discontinue the fin rot meds.

On the final stocking list/the missing guarami: since the kid grew quite fond of the guppies and doesn't want to give them (well, now it's just "him") up, it seemed that we need to add some more guppies to keep agression down. And at that point I thought that the guppies would simply take the guarami's place - I don't want to overstock the tank, it's only a 20G after all! Even though now that we are down to one guppy I'm not sure what to suggest. Still go for a group of guppies? Or move the guppy to a different tank? Or leave the guppy and still get the originally planned guarami? Decisions, decisions...

On tank decorations: Right now there are only plastic plants in there, but I'm in the process of adding some live plants. I did set up a small 5G in my kitchen with three male guppies and the java fern and wisterias in there are doing beautifully at 2.8 WPG without any CO2 :). I assume that the reason those three get along fine is that the tank is comparatively densly planted and has a relatively large piece of driftwood in it - they can "hide" quite easily, even though they usually swim together. Correct?

And on the addiction: I've spent the last few weeks trying to figure out what I'd like to to with the "big" tank that I will get within the next few weeks. the only thing I do know already is that I want a planted FW tank, so I guess that rules out chichlids and leaves a community tank. Angels, maybe? I just don't know yet.. but I'm sooo excited!!

[happychem]

Heh, Angels are cichlids. You can also look into the dwarf cichlids, they generally do well in planted tanks and aren't bad community-wise.

Lot's of hiding place will help the fish to feel more at home and more comfortable, not to mention the overall look of planted tanks! 2.8wpg isn't that much for a 5g tank. The wpg rule of thumb breaks down around 10-15g.

Before adding new fish, test the water and observe the remaining inhabitants for at least a week. That way if there is something wrong with the tank or some disease incubating it'll have time ot show. If a problem becomes apparent it will give you time to identify and solve it before adding more fish.

While not necessary, I like to do a 50% water change if I find a dead fish. I can't really rationalize it, but I seldom feel the need to rationalize a water change the same way that I would medication or any additives. I figure that at the very least I'm clearing out some of the breakdown products - like ammonia - from the dead fish.

I agree with you on the Otos, I love 'em. I've got 4 in my 33g, it used to be 5 but one was killed by my CO2 diffuser. Nothing wrong with the water chemistry, but I was running my CO2 line into a powerhead through a hole I melted (now I have a drill) in an attachment. It didn't work very well, the line kept falling out, so I changed my tactic. The Oto saw a little hole and thought to investigate, he got stuck, probably due to the sucktion, and I found him there a while later. Lesson learned. They are great little cleaners though. Excellent for keeping soft algaes in check.

[janderson]

and then spend the next few days getting/planting live plants. Hopefully all will go well and by the weekend we can get the poor guppy some company (they'll have to wait in a QT tank for a while, though, before they'll join him). Of course there's still the question of more guppies or a guarami?

[happychem]

Now that you've got your tank established, it's a good idea to QT new additions for about a month before adding them. That way you can watch for illness and they can settle into your water parameters. QT tanks are easy, don't need lighting, just a tank, heater and filter.

[janderson]

that will do double duty as a QT, so I guess I'll need some light after all :). I also thought that another snail might be able to keep that tank at least somehwhat cycled, do you think that might work? I think I'd prefer to have a hospital/QT permanently available vs. having to put one together every time I need it. And I don't really want to have an unpleasant looking (=bare) tank sitting around in plain sight...

[happychem]

A snail won't do much to keep your tank cycled, unless it's an extremely small tank.

However, you can easily set up a nice planted tank without any fish. Order your individual ferts (KNO3, KH2PO4, traces, CaCl2 if your tap water is calcium depleted) from Greg Watson (www.gregwatson.com), that way you can satisfy your plants' needs and tweak the individual nutrients as the plants require. That way you can have a beautiful tank and it can easily accept fish. When you want to move the new fish there to be QT'ed just rinse the filter media from your established tank in the new one. Another approach, the one that I use for quick tank setup, is (on top of rinsing out the media) to swap half the filter sponges from the established tank with those from the new tank. I just put the older sponges on the bottom and let the bacteria colonize the newer sponge.